The NCTE middle level digest covers a wide range of topics, but the last two have included some very intense debate about grammar. This, from yesterday, is the first of two. Brock Haussamen -----Original Message----- From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 5:33 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: ncte-middle-digest V1 #310 ncte-middle-digest Tuesday, December 19 2000 Volume 01 : Number 310 Re: [Re: [[ncte-middle] English grammar]] Re: [Re: [Re: [[ncte-middle] English grammar]]] Re: [ncte-middle] Shakespeare Re: [[ncte-middle] English grammar] Re: [[ncte-middle] English grammar]and VM [ncte-middle] English grammar/spelling [ncte-middle] English grammar Re: [ncte-middle] One More Time - Kamishibai Advice? RE: [ncte-middle] Shakespeare question RE: [ncte-middle] Shakespeare question [ncte-middle] Re: English grammar Re: [Re: [[ncte-middle] English grammar]] Re: [Re: [[ncte-middle] English grammar]] [ncte-middle] diagramming ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:30:00 -0500 From: Nancy Patterson <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [Re: [[ncte-middle] English grammar]] Karen, The main argument for diagramming is that it teaches students the structure of the language. Well, according to just about every linguist I can think of, students already know the structure of the language, and they know it by about the age of 5. They can ask questions, make demands, make statements, exclaim, and do whatever that other sentence type is. They know that if the cat runs up the tree, the tree doesn't run up the cat (unless the cat has met with a very unfortunate accident). And when you give them a sentence like "The cat in the tree hissed at the dog on the ground" they can tell you that "in the tree" provides more information about the cat, and "on the ground" provides more information about the dog. So why do students have to spend a lot of time trying to figure out what kind of line dangles down from another kind of line? Diagramming doesn't usually teach students about structure, it teaches them that language studies are inaccessible. Is that what we want to teach our students? Perhaps the weakest argument teachers use when supporting diagramming is that they learned from it and they liked it. WEll, somebody has to be an English major. Ok. I'm kidding a little. But generally, English majors have a high degree of what Howard Gardner refers to as linguistic intelligence. Diagramming was never a problem for me either, but that doesn't mean my students will find it easy or see the inner beauty of the linguistic structures they are trying to diagram. There are better ways to see those structures, and they are all meaning based. And, the research concludes that isolated grammar study such as diagramming has little or no impact on students' abilities to use language. But don't get me wrong. We need to teach grammar. We just don't need to teach traditional prescriptive rule bound grammar. I really like the idea of descriptive grammars where students formulate their own theories about how language works, test those theories, and reformulate. This is what literate people do all the time. And descriptive grammar theories, which are individual to each person, grow through the authentic use of language. Yes, there are times when we need to tell students how to punctuate stuff. Of course we need to do that. And we need to remind them to indent, and capitalize. But the reasons we do that is so that their writing can be read by others, not because they offend the language gods if they don't. It's all about meaning, not rules. I spend many little moments throughout my day asking students to think about one little word and the apostrophe that needs to go in that word, or the logic of what they have actually written as opposed to what they intended to write. These are the little lessons that build students' abilities to control language. And that's what it's all about. Yes, we want students to be able to use the language of power. HOW we get them there is the issue. Diagramming is not how we get them there. Nancy At 10:33 PM 12/18/00 EST, you wrote: >Nancy, > >Your comments help me know that I still have some work to do in this change >I'm trying to make...To be honest, up until I attempted to teach it to my >children, I had no idea verbs could be transitive (w/a direct obj) or >intranstive (w/o a direct obj). I see now how totally unimportant that is to >11-12 year olds and to ME even, however, even though that particular lesson >used all student work to point those things out....That is still teaching in >isolation.... > >When school starts again, I'll use the kids' writing to dictate the grammar >concepts we cover and do as you suggest--give them opportunities to discover >themselves what's wrong and show them why a misplaced apostrophe can make a >word mean differently, and how subj/verb agr. makes a difference in what their >writing means....Am I getting it yet? > >I'm not a good writer or reader, for that matter, because I know all eight >parts of speech and can recognize and define all of them on a good day, but >because I had someone to show me how to put words together to mean something >with paper and pencil, and to be aware of how others put words together to >mean things when I read. I want to do that with my students. > >The difficulty comes in being willing to do something different than "what >we've always done" whether it works or not. Students suffer because of their >teachers' unwillingness do try new things....Moving beyond drill and kill is >frightening for some teachers...I know it is for me...However, my main concern >should be and is my students. My first ventures outside of D&K didn't go that >well, but I'm not ready to go back into that text and do exercises for 45 >mins! > >A related, yet unrelated question.....What do you think about diagramming >sentences? I enjoyed it, however I'm not sure how much value it would be to >my students..... > > >Karen Brooks Bazley > >"A clay pot sitting in the sun will always be a clay pot. It has to go through >the white heat of the furnace to become porcelain." >--Mildred W. Struven > > >____________________________________________________________________ >Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail >---------------------------------------------------- >Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml >If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] >In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle >Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. >---------------------------------------------------- > > Nancy G. Patterson Portland Middle School, English Dept. Chair Portland, MI 48875 "The text is a tissue of quotations drawn from the innumberable centers of culture." - --Roland Barthes [log in to unmask] http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm http://www.npatterson.net/mid.html - ---------------------------------------------------- Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. - ---------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 00 00:38:01 EST From: Karen Bazley <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [[ncte-middle] English grammar]]] Just curious...And you're right; linguistic people like drawing all those little lines--learning to teach outside of the way I learn is a challenge too when most of my kids are kinesthetic and/or visual. With one of the new textbooks we were considering for adoption, there is an entire workbook dedicated to diagramming sentences....From what you've shared with me, these "new" textbooks are possibly colorful rehashes of D&K... My mentor keeps telling me that "language is back," but I'm not sure how she means it...She is uncomfortable with teaching skills in context which doesn't bode well for me in evaluations I forsee. My principal has had enough foresight to provide periodic workshops showing us how to teach in context without even referencing the textbook. This statement, "Diagramming doesn't usually teach students about structure, it teaches them that language studies are inaccessible.", is right on; insisting that they learn parts of speech outside of what they're doing creates the same frustration for them----I'm finally understanding that after teaching 7 years! It took 15 weeks in middle school to that out! I'm excited about the prospect of teaching this thing I love in a way that doesn't intimidate the children from trying. I have to change, not my students! Okay....what about spelling? Are prescriptives in order with this? Please? I spend a great deal of time guessing what words the children are spelling...younaforms=uniforms; that's pretty easy, but some of these creative spellings can get indecipherable. Using the dictionary proves frustrating because they have no idea of what they're spelling in the first place! Your input is enlightening and extremely valuable to me! Thanks! kbb Karen Brooks Bazley "A clay pot sitting in the sun will always be a clay pot. It has to go through the white heat of the furnace to become porcelain." - --Mildred W. Struven ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail - ---------------------------------------------------- Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. - ---------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:15:08 -0500 From: "Rick & Stacey" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [ncte-middle] Shakespeare thanks for the tip. i plan to start this with 8th graders in late january. stacey d. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jenny Ulman" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 7:59 AM Subject: [ncte-middle] Shakespeare > My 7th graders perform A Midsummer Night's Dream. Swan Books publishes > many of Shakespeare's plays in a series called Shakespeare for Young > People. I like these a lot. It is in Shakespeare's original language, but > it cuts out some of the dialogue. It also adds two narrator parts to > explain to the students what is going on. It also includes costuming hints > and stage direction advice right in the student copies. > > Jenny Ulman > Inclusion Program Manager > Instructor of English > Selma Middle School > [log in to unmask] > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml > If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] > In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle > Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. > ---------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------------------------------------- Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. - ---------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:44:47 -0600 From: "KBeers" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [[ncte-middle] English grammar] Susie, I saw your request to Nancy asking her for some good articles to share with parents or administrators about the teaching of grammar and I fear that Nancy won't tell you that she has herself just written one of those "good" articles that will appear in the March 2001 issue of Voices from the Middle. That issue will be devoted to articles on grammar instruction. Look for articles by Nancy, Connie Weaver, Harry Noden, Jim Burke and a host of others. I'm looking forward to this issue and hope teachers will enjoy it. If you don't receive VM, now would be a good time to call NCTE and order it so you'll be sure to receive this issue in March. Kylene Beers editor, Voices from the Middle - ---------------------------------------------------- Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. - ---------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 07:27:16 -0800 (PST) From: Liz Rehrauer <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [[ncte-middle] English grammar]and VM Kylene and all, The first two issues this year are wonderful, also. I am so pleased with the articles. This journal has gotten better and better as the years pass. When will VM be a choice of journal when we apply for NCTE membership? I think I'd rather get VM than EJ. Liz R New Auburn, Wisconsin _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ - ---------------------------------------------------- Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. - ---------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 07:43:16 -0800 (PST) From: Liz Rehrauer <[log in to unmask]> Subject: [ncte-middle] English grammar/spelling "Okay....what about spelling? Are prescriptives in order with this? Please?" I too am failing miserably with spelling. I'm trying Atwell with kids having their own spelling words. They are spelling their own spelling words wrong. It doesn't make sense to me for the kids to prepare their own list of spelling words when they don't have the correct spelling to study. Nor do they "Study" them. I've always thought of spelling as an individual skill. Use whatever tricks you can to spell words correctly. We all misspell words. I never learned -ent, -ant words. I teach some spelling rules, I help students create their own lists, I encourage correct spelling. But it doesn't appear to be working. One day I had kids give each other spelling tests from their own list, and I told them to be prepared for it. They spelled miserably. They still cannot spell their own "spelling words" correctly. I too, am interested in how to teach spelling in context. Liz R. New Auburn, Wisconsin _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ - ---------------------------------------------------- Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. - ---------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:00:11 -0800 From: "Terry Debarger" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: [ncte-middle] English grammar Regarding your questions about spelling, I have several thoughts. I get higher quality writing when I take the pressure to spell perfectly away. Constance Weaver has a fine explanation of why we should be pleased will spelling errors and not seek correctness in all writing. Focus on a few words that students use frequently. Weekly spelling lists, in my experience, don't improve spelling in the context of writing. Is there any 'research' to the contrary? Personally, I focus on the word I have to spell-check frequently. In my last paper, it was 'pursue.' Now I have it. I also use a word wall in class, where kids put up correctly spelled words that give them trouble (necessary, chocolate, etc.). I would like dispel the misconception that phonics based instruction is the solution for spelling problems and that invented spelling, an approach used in the early elementary grades, causes non-standard spelling. You example of "younaforms" combines a sight word with a phonetic spelling, which is not a bad way to approach writing a word your not sure of, just in this case it does not yield a correct version . In conversations with high school teachers, I often hear complaints about 'invented spelling' ruining their student's spelling. This is followed by anecdotes of errors that could more readily be ascribed to a phonetic attack strategy. As the 'bridge' between elementary and high school, I feel that we should educate our peers who are tempted to lay blame where I does not belong. As a side note, in this message, I 'spell checked' four words. Makes me look like a much better speller than I usually am. >>> Karen Bazley <[log in to unmask]> 05/23/80 10:38PM >>> Just curious...And you're right; linguistic people like drawing all those little lines--learning to teach outside of the way I learn is a challenge too when most of my kids are kinesthetic and/or visual. With one of the new textbooks we were considering for adoption, there is an entire workbook dedicated to diagramming sentences....From what you've shared with me, these "new" textbooks are possibly colorful rehashes of D&K... My mentor keeps telling me that "language is back," but I'm not sure how she means it...She is uncomfortable with teaching skills in context which doesn't bode well for me in evaluations I forsee. My principal has had enough foresight to provide periodic workshops showing us how to teach in context without even referencing the textbook. This statement, "Diagramming doesn't usually teach students about structure, it teaches them that language studies are inaccessible.", is right on; insisting that they learn parts of speech outside of what they're doing creates the same frustration for them----I'm finally understanding that after teaching 7 years! It took 15 weeks in middle school to that out! I'm excited about the prospect of teaching this thing I love in a way that doesn't intimidate the children from trying. I have to change, not my students! Okay....what about spelling? Are prescriptives in order with this? Please? I spend a great deal of time guessing what words the children are spelling...younaforms=uniforms; that's pretty easy, but some of these creative spellings can get indecipherable. Using the dictionary proves frustrating because they have no idea of what they're spelling in the first place! Your input is enlightening and extremely valuable to me! Thanks! kbb Karen Brooks Bazley "A clay pot sitting in the sun will always be a clay pot. It has to go through the white heat of the furnace to become porcelain." - --Mildred W. Struven ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail - ---------------------------------------------------- Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. - ---------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------------------------------------- Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. - ---------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:49:54 -0800 From: Kathy Arthurs <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [ncte-middle] One More Time - Kamishibai Advice? I, too, loaded it up, but the captions were not there. I did think the pictures "said it all!" I must have missed the original post. I'd love to know a little more about the theory and how you incorporate it into class projects. Again, nice job. Tell your students I loved the art. ( I,too, teach the Nye version of Beowulf. It's my kids favorite story out of two years!!! Kathy A. Marji Morris wrote: > gretchen > they loaded quickly here and when i clicked to view the enlarged pix and > caption, it came up right away. looks great! > marji > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml > If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] > In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle > Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. > ---------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------------------------------------- Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. - ---------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:42:13 -0600 From: "Jennifer Quinn" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: [ncte-middle] Shakespeare question I teach Shakespeare to my 6th graders. Last year I did it with all levels. This year I just finished it with my advanced and plan to do it with the rest at the end of the year. I do Much Ado About Nothing. Once you set up the scene and the characters, it is not too difficult for them. I have had success with this unit for 2 years and the kids love it. Jenn in NC - -----Original Message----- From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Amiela Kleinschmidt Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 6:18 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [ncte-middle] Shakespeare question Would anyone out here be able to recommend appropriate versions of Shakespeare for 8th graders who are not all super strong readers? I don't know if Shakespeare is normally performed in its pure form at this age, or abridged, or modified, or what. It'll be my first attempt at teaching the Bard, and I'd appreciate any advice from this wonderful source of info i've relied on over the past two years of teaching. Thank you! Amy in NYC - ---------------------------------------------------- Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. - ---------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------------------------------------- Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. - ---------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:29:15 -0800 (PST) From: Matthea Meeks <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: [ncte-middle] Shakespeare question Jennifer, I plan to teach Much Ado to my advanced class in January -- I would love any suggestions you have. I have never taught Shakespeare at all. Fortunately the kids are looking forward to it. Thanks -- Matthea - --- Jennifer Quinn <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > I teach Shakespeare to my 6th graders. Last year I did it with all levels. > This year I just finished it with my advanced and plan to do it with the > rest at the end of the year. I do Much Ado About Nothing. Once you set up > the scene and the characters, it is not too difficult for them. I have had > success with this unit for 2 years and the kids love it. > > Jenn in NC > > -----Original Message----- > From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On > Behalf Of Amiela Kleinschmidt > Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 6:18 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [ncte-middle] Shakespeare question > > > > Would anyone out here be able to recommend appropriate versions of > Shakespeare for > 8th graders who are not all super strong readers? I don't know if > Shakespeare is normally > performed in its pure form at this age, or abridged, or modified, or > what. > It'll be my first attempt at teaching the Bard, and I'd appreciate any > advice from this wonderful source of info i've relied on over the past > two years of teaching. > > Thank you! > > Amy in NYC > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml > If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] > In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle > Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. > ---------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml > If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] > In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle > Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. > ---------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ - ---------------------------------------------------- Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. - ---------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:44:36 -0500 From: Brad and Jami Denton <[log in to unmask]> Subject: [ncte-middle] Re: English grammar Here is a question that I have wanted the answer for for awhile: Why did teachers find grammar instruction via "the little blue book" and diagramming important in the olden days? And,a second question, while I'm at it, who came up with this way of teaching the parts of a sentence? What articles did they write promoting it? Why was this method embraced by every school I have ever been to or heard about? (O.K. those were three questions) Diagramming does not teach capitalization, punctuation, or spelling--the skills we seem to be concerned about on this list. It just teaches sentence construction. Was is Kolln? Who came up with the terminology "subject," "predicate," "gerund," etc.? It seems these terms have been around since the beginning of time. Are they Greek or Latin? Does any one know the answers or can you refer me to a place where I can find them? Maybe a college grammar professor? Gracious, do not make me write Dr. Morris! I still have nightmares about being made to diagram that impossible three-page sentence written by Faulkner. Ever questioning what I have been taught, what I know, and where it is from, and what I teach, Jami Denton Nancy Patterson wrote: > > Karen, > > The main argument for diagramming is that it teaches students the structure > of the language. Well, according to just about every linguist I can think > of, students already know the structure of the language, and they know it by > about the age of 5. They can ask questions, make demands, make statements, > exclaim, and do whatever that other sentence type is. They know that if the > cat runs up the tree, the tree doesn't run up the cat (unless the cat has > met with a very unfortunate accident). And when you give them a sentence > like "The cat in the tree hissed at the dog on the ground" they can tell you > that "in the tree" provides more information about the cat, and "on the > ground" provides more information about the dog. So why do students have to > spend a lot of time trying to figure out what kind of line dangles down from > another kind of line? Diagramming doesn't usually teach students about > structure, it teaches them that language studies are inaccessible. Is that > what we want to teach our students? > > Perhaps the weakest argument teachers use when supporting diagramming is > that they learned from it and they liked it. WEll, somebody has to be an > English major. Ok. I'm kidding a little. But generally, English majors > have a high degree of what Howard Gardner refers to as linguistic > intelligence. Diagramming was never a problem for me either, but that > doesn't mean my students will find it easy or see the inner beauty of the > linguistic structures they are trying to diagram. There are better ways to > see those structures, and they are all meaning based. > > And, the research concludes that isolated grammar study such as diagramming > has little or no impact on students' abilities to use language. > > But don't get me wrong. We need to teach grammar. We just don't need to > teach traditional prescriptive rule bound grammar. I really like the idea > of descriptive grammars where students formulate their own theories about > how language works, test those theories, and reformulate. This is what > literate people do all the time. And descriptive grammar theories, which > are individual to each person, grow through the authentic use of language. > Yes, there are times when we need to tell students how to punctuate stuff. > Of course we need to do that. And we need to remind them to indent, and > capitalize. But the reasons we do that is so that their writing can be > read by others, not because they offend the language gods if they don't. > It's all about meaning, not rules. > > I spend many little moments throughout my day asking students to think about > one little word and the apostrophe that needs to go in that word, or the > logic of what they have actually written as opposed to what they intended to > write. These are the little lessons that build students' abilities to > control language. And that's what it's all about. Yes, we want students to > be able to use the language of power. HOW we get them there is the issue. > Diagramming is not how we get them there. > > Nancy > > At 10:33 PM 12/18/00 EST, you wrote: > >Nancy, > > > >Your comments help me know that I still have some work to do in this change > >I'm trying to make...To be honest, up until I attempted to teach it to my > >children, I had no idea verbs could be transitive (w/a direct obj) or > >intranstive (w/o a direct obj). I see now how totally unimportant that is to > >11-12 year olds and to ME even, however, even though that particular lesson > >used all student work to point those things out....That is still teaching in > >isolation.... > > > >When school starts again, I'll use the kids' writing to dictate the grammar > >concepts we cover and do as you suggest--give them opportunities to discover > >themselves what's wrong and show them why a misplaced apostrophe can make a > >word mean differently, and how subj/verb agr. makes a difference in what their > >writing means....Am I getting it yet? > > > >I'm not a good writer or reader, for that matter, because I know all eight > >parts of speech and can recognize and define all of them on a good day, but > >because I had someone to show me how to put words together to mean something > >with paper and pencil, and to be aware of how others put words together to > >mean things when I read. I want to do that with my students. > > > >The difficulty comes in being willing to do something different than "what > >we've always done" whether it works or not. Students suffer because of their > >teachers' unwillingness do try new things....Moving beyond drill and kill is > >frightening for some teachers...I know it is for me...However, my main concern > >should be and is my students. My first ventures outside of D&K didn't go that > >well, but I'm not ready to go back into that text and do exercises for 45 > >mins! > > > >A related, yet unrelated question.....What do you think about diagramming > >sentences? I enjoyed it, however I'm not sure how much value it would be to > >my students..... > > > > > >Karen Brooks Bazley > > > >"A clay pot sitting in the sun will always be a clay pot. It has to go through > >the white heat of the furnace to become porcelain." > >--Mildred W. Struven > > > > > >____________________________________________________________________ > >Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at > http://home.netscape.com/webmail > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml > >If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] > >In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle > >Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. > >---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Nancy G. Patterson > Portland Middle School, English Dept. Chair > Portland, MI 48875 > > "The text is a tissue of quotations drawn from the innumberable centers of > culture." > --Roland Barthes > > [log in to unmask] > http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm > http://www.npatterson.net/mid.html > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml > If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] > In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle > Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. > ---------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------------------------------------- Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. - ---------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:31:22 EST From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [Re: [[ncte-middle] English grammar]] In a message dated 12/18/0 9:01:23 PM, [log in to unmask] writes: >Diagramming doesn't usually teach students about >structure, it teaches them that language studies are inaccessible. I disagree. My visually oriented students often have the "Eureka!" lightbulb go off when they see a sentence diagrammed--or, better still, when they write one of their own and construct a diagram for it. For kids who feel they have a hard time with grammar, diagramming can be the very activity that lets them 'see' the sentence. As constructionists, we applaud pictures, collages, maps, and many more activities that help us approach language in a variety of ways. To eliminate diagramming because of its historical place as a former Torturer of Students is not necessary; indeed, it can increase accessibility for some. Candace Lindquist Campbell, CA - ---------------------------------------------------- Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. - ---------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 05:17:50 -0500 From: Nancy Patterson <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [Re: [[ncte-middle] English grammar]] Candace, sorry, but diagramming with the expectation that it will turn students into better writers is far from a constructivist perspective. It might help students learn the parts of speech, and there is nothing per se wrong with students knowing the parts of speech, as long as there is no expectation that such knowledge will make students better users of language, and that learning such facts doesn't take time away from what Arthur Applebee (I think) calls language in action. Linguists, by the way, do not use what is commonly referred to as school grammar. The last linguistics course I took, which was a discourse analysis course, used Functional Systemic Grammar developed by Halladay. There are transformational grammarians and functional systemic grammarians, and they have lots of fun disagreeing with each other. There are also Tagmemic grammarians, rhetorical grammarians, and a few others that I've forgotten. But school grammar, kind of a bird unto itself that is prized only by English teachers, doesn't have a very good theoretical foundation as grammars go. It does a poor job of explaining the functions of linguistic structures, and it's main purpose seems to be to serve as the billy club of the grammar police. Nancy At 04:31 PM 12/19/00 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 12/18/0 9:01:23 PM, [log in to unmask] writes: > >>Diagramming doesn't usually teach students about >>structure, it teaches them that language studies are inaccessible. > > >I disagree. My visually oriented students often have the "Eureka!" lightbulb >go off when they see a sentence diagrammed--or, better still, when they write >one of their own and construct a diagram for it. For kids who feel they have >a hard time with grammar, diagramming can be the very activity that lets them >'see' the sentence. > >As constructionists, we applaud pictures, collages, maps, and many more >activities that help us approach language in a variety of ways. To eliminate >diagramming because of its historical place as a former Torturer of Students >is not necessary; indeed, it can increase accessibility for some. > >Candace Lindquist >Campbell, CA >---------------------------------------------------- >Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml >If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] >In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle >Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. >---------------------------------------------------- > > Nancy G. Patterson Portland Middle School, English Dept. Chair Portland, MI 48875 "The text is a tissue of quotations drawn from the innumberable centers of culture." - --Roland Barthes [log in to unmask] http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm http://www.npatterson.net/mid.html - ---------------------------------------------------- Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. - ---------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:34:03 -0800 From: "Terry Debarger" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: [ncte-middle] diagramming Ever try to diagram, "See Spot Run"? Not a particularly elegant or rational expression of a simple idea. >>> <[log in to unmask]> 12/19/00 01:31PM >>> In a message dated 12/18/0 9:01:23 PM, [log in to unmask] writes: >Diagramming doesn't usually teach students about >structure, it teaches them that language studies are inaccessible. I disagree. My visually oriented students often have the "Eureka!" lightbulb go off when they see a sentence diagrammed--or, better still, when they write one of their own and construct a diagram for it. For kids who feel they have a hard time with grammar, diagramming can be the very activity that lets them 'see' the sentence. As constructionists, we applaud pictures, collages, maps, and many more activities that help us approach language in a variety of ways. To eliminate diagramming because of its historical place as a former Torturer of Students is not necessary; indeed, it can increase accessibility for some. Candace Lindquist Campbell, CA - ---------------------------------------------------- Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. - ---------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------------------------------------- Archives-> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-middle/archives.shtml If you wish to escape NCTE-MIDDLE, send email to [log in to unmask] In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-middle Write to [log in to unmask] if you run into trouble. - ---------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of ncte-middle-digest V1 #310 ********************************* To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/