In my guest >presentation, the problem led to an interesting and spirited >discussion of how sentence grammar interacts with rhetorical >considerations, what linguists would call discourse pragmatics. > >I've done summer workshops for middle and high school English >teachers where we've concentrated specifically on such >discourse-motivated grammatical alternations. The discourse >motivation, the tie-in to rhetoric, gives relevance to building >the grammatical basis for discussion of sentence structure >options, and we end up covering quite a lot of grammar. This can >be done in a linguistically and intellectually faithful manner and >is generally stimulating to all involved. Herb, can you give us some specifics? A brief scenario? Outline? Anecdote? Thanks! Judy > >Herb Stahlke > > > >Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D. >Professor of English >Ball State University >Muncie, IN 47306 >[log in to unmask] > >>>> [log in to unmask] 12/04/00 02:22AM >>> >Bill (McCleary) writes: > >"We cannot expect members of ATEG to agree on terminology when >the rest >of >the world does not. Instead, we need to agree upon the CONCEPTS >to be >taught and the ages at which to introduce them to students. Then >we can >decide on names for concepts, understanding when we do that there >will >be >disagreement." > >I have (of course) several problems with that statement. First of >all, >if we do not have names for the CONCEPTS, how can we know what we >are >talking about, i.e., how can we agree that certain concepts >should (or >should not) be taught? > >The fact that Max's, Martha's, and even most other grammar books >do not >use the term "main clause" simply reflects the wrong-headedness >of all >those books -- and I mean that literally. The books are all made >for >(headed toward) the teaching of grammar as an end in itself, and >not as >a tool with which STUDENTS can analyze discourse. A while back, I >asked >if anyone could diagram any English sentence. Edith responded >"Yes," if >she could call on Michael for help. But that, in fact, helps >prove my >point -- if Edith, who knows grammar very well, needs Michael's >help, >then how are students supposed to use sentence diagramming to >straighten >out some of their mangled sentences, some of which are very >complicated? > > Judith has suggested that the 3S committee has made great >progress. >Perhaps, but I don't see it. All I have seen is generalizations. >And >unless ATEG can agree on some specifics, I doubt that many >primary, >middle, and high school teachers will be interested in what this >group >does. From their perspective, I suggest, we simply offer a muddle >of >conflicting views and impenetrable terminology. > I realize that I am in a minority position in the group, and >I >would like to see more K-12 teachers involved in the group. >Perhaps they >could bring the group to its senses. Many members of this group >teach >grammar to future teachers. How effective, or useful, is that >instruction? Need I remind members of this list once again of the >NCTE >teacher who defended grammar and the teaching of transient and >intransient sentences? Clearly this teacher had been "taught" >grammar, >but to what end? Once again I suggest that we need a limited >number of >well-defined concepts (for which we need terms), and we need to >teach >teachers how to use those terms to analyze texts -- including >their >students' writing. > >Question: Is the following sentence an example of a comma-splice, >or an >example of a well-written sentence? > >My dog moaned, its tail stuck between its back legs. > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/