Another brilliant post from Mulroy. R. Reis ----- Original Message ----- From: "David D Mulroy" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 6:25 PM Subject: Re: Deep thoughts > I think that you are mistaken about Shakespeare. He and the other > authors of the English Renaissance benefited from a return > to basic grammar that had been decreed by Henry VIII. In the fifteenth > century, grammatical instruction in the schools had suffered because > scholars were preoccupied with theoretical or speculative grammars that > raised some of the same philosophical issues as contemporary linguists > address. > > Shakespeare's basic textbook was Lily's grammar. It is true that this is > aimed at Latin but it is based on grammatical concepts that are easily > transferred to English and have to be if they are to be understood. As a > Latinist, I can assure you that English speakers do not and cannot learn > about sentence subjects, prepositional phrases, participles, the passive > voice, or appositives in Latin without understanding what they they refer > to in English. Shakespeare seems to me to be the clearest imaginable > example of author who benefits from a deep, conscious understanding of > grammar. I suppose you could say that you he and the other > masters of the 17th century show that you don't need to STUDY ENGLISH > grammar, but that's only if you start Latin in the first grade, approach > it with a grammatical syllabus, and make it the main subject studied. > > > > On Sat, 17 Feb 2001, Richard Veit wrote: > > > > >I don't doubt that many famous writers have done "quite well without > > >having studied grammar." I am wondering though if you have some > > >documented instances in mind. I think that it would be instructive to > > >contemplate some specific examples. (I already know about Homer and the > > >other Greeks pre-Aristotle.) > > > > I don't believe that English grammar was studied--or even deemed worthy of > > study--until the eighteenth century. Volume I of the Norton Anthology of > > English LIt will provide a lengthy list of great writers who never studied > > English grammar, including whatsizname who wrote Hamlet. True, many of them > > studied Latin grammar, but the grammar of that Romance language is very > > different from that of our own Germanic offshoot. I'd also bet that half > > the writers on the NY Times best seller list (or any other random group of > > modern eminent writers you might name) would tell you they couldn't > > identify an absolute or an appositive, even though they use both beautifully. > > > > By the way, I support grammar instruction for a host of reasons. That it is > > essential in order to be a good writer happens not to be one of them. > > > > Dick Veit > > UNCW English Dept. > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/