Geoff, What I think you have discovered is that learning has to be meaning-based. It has to be meaning-full. And it has to have a meaningful context. Let's face it. If the isolated teaching of grammar turned students into better language users, it would. Believe me (and Susan Ohanian who has paid even closer attention to this than I have), the vast majority of English classrooms out there still provide traditional grammar instruction. But that instruction is either so meaningless to students that they can't even remember getting it, or it is so distasteful or disconnected that students didn't learn much. The issue that we should be talking about here is not whether or not grammar should be taught, but HOW it should be taught. And it seems that the systematic teaching of grammar is not the best approach. Meaningful grammar instruction has to be more organic and tied to a context. That is what all the learning theory points to, by the way. I'm not talking about just grammar here. All learning generally requires a context. I think what surprises me most often when I read discussions on this list is the lack of consideration for what we know about how people learn. The people on this list are probably not representative of the way most children learn, especially the subject of grammar. Children do not seem to bring to awareness their knowledge of grammar through the isolated teaching of that grammar. It makes no sense to them. What does make sense to them is conversations about the language they use, and then frequent, meaningful, and "just in time" individual direct instruction about particular problems they are having. For what it's worth, I don't think NCTE is "anti-grammar." In fact, I think that's a rather ridiculous assumption. I DO think NCTE members are trying to say quite clearly that there has to be a better way to teach grammar, to define grammar, to deal with grammatical issues in meaningful ways. Nancy G. Patterson, PhD Portland Middle School, English Dept. Chair Portland, MI 48875 "To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone can learn." --bell hooks [log in to unmask] http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm http://www.npatterson.net/mid.html To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/