The "in isolation" part doesn't happen, but there is a movement in all content areas to make them meaning based. What is happening in education is a very interesting movement called "constructivism." It is based in part on the theories of Lev Vygotsky and M.M. Bakhtin, at least in the language arts. Basically, constructivism views learning as a social construct--everythng from what is important to know to the acquisition of that knowledge transactively. Obviously in our culture the skill of counting change is no longer a key piece of knowledge. That has been taken over by a smart took. I realize that some of you don't like that. But our culture on a whole has decided it wants children to be able to work more abstractly with real mathematics rather than arithmetic, a kind of mathematical trick. So, students spend a great deal of time engaged in statisitical analysis--even as 6th graders. They work with trajectories, velocities, prime numbers. They study algebra, geometry, physics and trig--even as 6th graders. They don't spent a great deal of time drilling on math facts--not that those aren't important, but like the definition of a noun in school grammar, things don 't stop cold until a students can pick out a noun in a line-up. They don't stop if a kid can't divide four digit numbers on paper. You may bemoan this, but I've seen these kids in action. And our culture believes that we need mathemticians more than someone who can recite his times-tables to ten on a burning match, or whatever. I think I said in an earlier post that much of the disappointment that some on this list feel about the "lack" of grammar teaching in schools can be mediated by looking at how constructivist or transactive approaches change the classroom. Or perhaps even better, go into a middle school language arts classroom and tackle the beast in her lair. And I don't know whether the beast is grammar or whether it is the students. :-) I do have to say that if you do not have engagement, you do not have learning. This has always been the case, by the way. We haven't bred a gaggle of passive students who simply want to be entertained. That's too easy an excuse. But we know more about how people learn, and we are seeing far more students stay in school, students who would have dropped out at the 8th grade 50 years ago. If we want all students to learn, then we have to engage them in meaningful tasks. Whether present company believes it or not, grammar in and of itself is not meaningful to most students. It never was which is why we continue to have this conversation. I might add that an excerpt from a turn of the century English Journal article bemoaned the same lack of interest in grammar that I hear today. Times have not really changed, but our knowledge of learning theory and our belief in democratic classroom practices has perhaps changed. Nancy G. Patterson, PhD Portland Middle School, English Dept. Chair Portland, MI 48875 "To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone can learn." --bell hooks [log in to unmask] http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm http://www.npatterson.net/mid.html To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/