This exchange, I think, is an excellent illustration of the complex issue of the secondary/post-secondary difference(s) in education. What succeeds at the university may not be successful in high, middle, or elementary school -- and vice versa. What I think we all need is open mindedness. Nancy Patterson (clearly, you've read Dewey!) and Robert Einarsson are both right! They're just talking about different populations. It takes twelve years to prepare students for college, and as many of you may know, college freshmen still have a tough time adjusting to the changes. Even high school seniors have a difficult time "sitting for hours" -- doing ANYTHING. Eventually, most of them they stop working altogether (it's called "senioritis") -- usually shortly after they receive acceptance letters from the colleges of their choice -- then they scramble for the last two weeks of school to get enough done to secure graduation. If colleges were interested in making Bob's unspoiled ideal a reality, they might put some academic conditions on acceptance! It would certainly help those of us who teach high school seniors to at least attempt some intellectual work from March through June. But we can't expect too much! The years from 5th through 12th grades are filled with change and with anxiety. Teenagers are often focused on everything BUT their intellects. They do, however, eventually grow beyond these years of impulse and hormones. During these times, they need to learn a work ethic, for sure, and they need us to serve as role models, but they also need to breathe and be young. Rites of passage are useful, and variety in education is often in itself a prescription for success. Paul E. Doniger ----- Original Message ----- From: Nancy Patterson <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 12:46 PM Subject: Re: In and out of Context > You're kidding. You must be kidding. > > I have this larger than life picture of my 4th hour class of 7th graders > this year sitting for hours doing "intellectual" work. Perhaps we need to > define intellectual work. > > But I have to tell you that I am deeply offended by your remark that > teachers who contextualize "jump through hoops to entertain". When was the > last time you attempted to engage (you might want to read Deborah Brandt's > interesting book on Literacy and Involvement) a classroom of children. If > they are not engaged or involved (and this is NOT entertainment) then there > is no learning going on. You the teacher can stand up in front of a > classroom for hours and talk your brains out, but if the kids don't listen, > then all your intellectual talk has been a waste of effort. And before you > begin your lament that students today aren't what they used to be, check out > what yesterday's students were really like. I'm not talking about you as a > student. I'm talking about the other kids. I remember them. > > Engagement happens when students can connect what they are learning to what > they already know about themselves and the world around them. And, if we are > dealing with text, then they learn by connecting what they learning in or > about text with what they already know. They may have to adjust their prior > knowledge because of the new information they are receiving--just as you are > attempting to adjust yours as you are reading this post. > > Your knowledge of a classroom tells you that students will sit still for > hours. My knowledge of the classroom tells me this won't happen and > learning won't happen if students aren't engaged, if they do not have a > context, if they do not feel that what they are learning is important and > meaningful. > > At 10:29 AM 6/20/01 -0600, you wrote: > >I'm sorry, but the arguments below (getting fairly well known by > >now) still seem to me to be just excuses. > > > >Why can't students just sit at their desks and do several hours of > >intellectual work? > > > >"Contextual teachers" seem to jump through hoops to entertain > >their students. Be careful, you'll spoil them! > > > > Nancy G. Patterson, Ph.D. > Portland Middle School, English Dept. Chair > Portland, MI 48875 > > "To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone can > learn." > > --bell hooks > > [log in to unmask] > http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm > http://www.npatterson.net/mid.html > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/