I'm with Sophie on this one. It's a comma splice--two independent clauses joined by a comma. Each sentence has a subject and predicate, and there's no subordinator in sight, so I don't see how people can interpret the first sentence as subordinate. We're going by syntax, not meaning, to decide this question. Meaning relationships can, however, be used to decide what sort of alternative punctuation is available. These sentences could have a period, a semicolon, or an em-dash between them. I disagree with the poster who said that em-dashes can't be used between sentences--they can, when the meaning of the sentences is close (similar to use of a semicolon). I'm sure numerous grammar books will back me up on this point. In this case, I think a semicolon or em-dash would be better than a period, since the sentences are closely related in meaning. So it's a comma splice. That said, is it an error? The answer to that question depends on the stylistic goals of the piece. If it is intended to conform to the most formal style of writing, I would say change the punc. to eliminate the comma splice. If it is intended to reflect speech or to be more informal, maybe let it stand. In general, with student writers who are learning the ropes of punctuation, I follow the adage 'you have to walk before you can run'. Learn to follow the strictest rules of punctuation until you have the experience, style, and flair to know when you can break those rules. The fact that there are comma splices in published works doesn't mean much. There are plenty of badly-edited books around, and style requirements change. This past term I used a book (published in the early '60s) on the history of England as a source for developing my lectures, and it was shot through with sentences which separated a long subject from the verb with a comma. This practice is forbidden by current grammar books. I have a feeling I know part of Ed's motivation in posing this question. He has made much in the past of the fact that posters to this list often disagree on basic matters such as the definition of a clause. I wonder what the result would be on that and on other questions if one checked 20 current grammar books or style manuals? I wonder if there would be as much variation? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Johanna Rubba Assistant Professor, Linguistics English Department, California Polytechnic State University One Grand Avenue • San Luis Obispo, CA 93407 Tel. (805)-756-2184 • Fax: (805)-756-6374 • Dept. Phone. 756-259 • E-mail: [log in to unmask] • Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/