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Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:56:35 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: paper---13
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does anyone know what this message below is about? It was sent to the =
list.
There have been numerous virus problems lately spread by email containing =
attachments and asking for advice. I'm not opening this one myself, =
especially given the apparently personal way in which this email begins.
-larry beason
>>> Christina E. Petrus <[log in to unmask]> - =
11/12/01 1:34 PM >>>
Hi! How are you?
I send you this file in order to have your advice
See you later. Thanks
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:42:59 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Rabinowitz, Jennifer" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: A simple question?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello one and all,
I have a question. Is the placement of commas inside the quotation marks
correct in this sentence: "The sculpture,"Discus Thrower," was beautiful to
behold." That is, are commas always inside quotations?
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:24:49 +0300
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: omarjohns <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: paper---13
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Monday, November 12, 2001, 10:34:43 PM, you wrote:
CEP> Hi! How are you?
CEP> I send you this file in order to have your advice
CEP> See you later. Thanks
This is obviously a virus. Lucky 13. Get it?
Immediately delete anything in your box looks like this.
No one who says Hi how are you! wants my advice, and they don't want
yours.
And never open unsolicited attachments unless you are absolutely
certain of the sender.
Forewarned is forearmed.
--
Best regards,
Omar mailto:[log in to unmask]
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:34:34 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Max Morenberg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Those participials
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Don, you bring up an interesting point. What is the defining quality
of a nonrestrictive participial phrases? I think both Martha and
Sophie are onto the answer-something to do with "modifying" the
subject. But in the example you give, the issue can change if you
replace "I" with a noun, making it possible for the phrase to link to
the subject of the clause (I dislike the term "modify" to explain
this relationship.
1. George could hear him down in his workshop, hammering away on his
latest project.
2. Hammering away on his latest project, George could hear him down
in the basement.
3. George, hammering away on his latest project, could hear him down
in the basement.
In sentence 1, the phrase could be ambiguous (I think), but it seems
to relate to "him" since it follows "him." Is proximity the answer?
Sentences 1 and 2 claim that George is doing the hammering.
I think, given two nouns that a participial phrase can link to,
proximity and order has a lot to do with how you interpret the
sentence. Look what happens if you change the subject to "he."
4. He could hear him down in his workshop, hammering away on his
latest project.
5. Hammering away on his latest project, he could hear him down in
the basement.
6. ?He, hammering away on his latest project, could hear him down in
the basement.
Well, I think 6 is questionable as an English sentence. But 4 and 5
are ok and seem to bear out the proximity issue. I'd say that
"hammering . . . " links to the object "him" in 4 and to the subject
"he" in 5.
I suspect that more than proximity is going on, though I'd be hard
pressed to explain it more fully. I think that more than modifying a
subject noun is going on as well, though both explanations work to
some extent.
Is the "him" really a subject in some deep structure construction
that it is raised out of?
I could hear ____________ .
He was down in his workshop.
He was hammering away on his latest project.
And does this all become ambiguous if there are other deep structure
possibilities as sources? Or how would we handle the problem in a
principles and parameters model? I guess the subjects and object
would be in different thematic relationships with the participial and
prepositional phrases. The fact that we can play variation upon
variation is the major reason I shy away from theoretical issues
(though I find them intriguing) and basically stick to surface
explanations. I'll go back to proximity, if you don't mind, even if
it doesn't explain everything.
Oh, well! I think I got away from the central issue about what makes
a phrase nonrestrictive. And it's too late to go back now. Max
>Now's the time for me to jump in with a question that's been on my mind for
>a while. Sophie points out that the participial phrase at the end acts like
>a foreshortened sentence and thus refers back to the subject. Martha adds
>good examples and rightly advocates the use of the nonrestrictive
>participles.
>
>But what about one like "I could hear him down in his workshop, hammering
>away on his latest project"? I see that this could be written "I could hear
>him hammering away on his latest project down in the basement."
>
>Is the ability to be written as restrictive, which seems to coincide with
>the inability to float as a free modifier, the defining quality of this
>participial phrase that keeps it from getting all the way back to modify the
>subject?
>
>Don Stewart
>--
>Keeper of the memory and method of Francis Christensen.
>WriteforCollege.com
>The Stewart English Program (epsbooks.com)
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Max Morenberg, Professor
Department of English
Miami University
Oxford, OH 45056
[log in to unmask]
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:54:14 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Glauner, Jeff" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A simple question?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Some style guides disagree on this point, but the MLA (Modern Language
Association) style guide places commas inside quotation marks.
One problem in your sentence, however, is that quotation marks that occur
within other quotation marks are single instead of double symbols: "The
sculpture, 'The Discus Thrower,' was beautiful to behold."
I'll leave the question that might arise of whether the name of an artwork
should be in italics or enclosed in quotation marks for another day.
Jeff Glauner
Associate Professor of English
Park University, Box 1303
8700 River Park Drive
Parkville MO 64152
[log in to unmask]
http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: Rabinowitz, Jennifer [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 2:43 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: A simple question?
Hello one and all,
I have a question. Is the placement of commas inside the quotation marks
correct in this sentence: "The sculpture,"Discus Thrower," was beautiful to
behold." That is, are commas always inside quotations?
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:05:40 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A simple question?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jennifer,
1) The commas aren't needed with single word appositives: "My sister =
Alice was beautiful."
2) Quotes inside quotes are ranked. Usually we have a single quote mark =
if we are quoting the material around it with double quote marks. =20
3) I have seen where a linguist, who uses the single quote marks to speak =
of a word, per se, will keep the mark within the comma. Normally the mark =
will include the comma, especially where multiple words are involved. =
Scientists, who tend to be more logical, often resist custom and insist on =
following logic in this regard. =20
Bruce
>>> [log in to unmask] 07/26/01 01:42PM >>>
Hello one and all,
I have a question. Is the placement of commas inside the quotation marks
correct in this sentence: "The sculpture,"Discus Thrower," was beautiful =
to
behold." That is, are commas always inside quotations?
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:06:00 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Rabinowitz, Jennifer" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A simple question?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thank you. Here's another question, then: what to do about conflicting
rules on usage? Which to use, and why?
-----Original Message-----
From: Glauner, Jeff [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: A simple question?
Some style guides disagree on this point, but the MLA (Modern Language
Association) style guide places commas inside quotation marks.
One problem in your sentence, however, is that quotation marks that occur
within other quotation marks are single instead of double symbols: "The
sculpture, 'The Discus Thrower,' was beautiful to behold."
I'll leave the question that might arise of whether the name of an artwork
should be in italics or enclosed in quotation marks for another day.
Jeff Glauner
Associate Professor of English
Park University, Box 1303
8700 River Park Drive
Parkville MO 64152
[log in to unmask]
http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: Rabinowitz, Jennifer [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 2:43 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: A simple question?
Hello one and all,
I have a question. Is the placement of commas inside the quotation marks
correct in this sentence: "The sculpture,"Discus Thrower," was beautiful to
behold." That is, are commas always inside quotations?
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 16:40:13 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Richard Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: ANOTHER VIRUS: paper---13
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Don't open the attachment from that message. Another virus.
At 03:34 PM 11/12/2001, you wrote:
>Hi! How are you?
>
>I send you this file in order to have your advice
>
>See you later. Thanks
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 16:55:47 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Don Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A simple question?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Bruce,
I'm afraid I must disagree with your #1 comment below. Whether the
appositive is one word or more than one word is not the issue. The issue is
whether the appositive is necessary. My usual way to teach this is to ask
who has one brother (or sister) and who has more than one. I then write out
the two variations:
My brother Charlie lives in Chicago.
My brother, Charlie, lives in Chicago.
One of the best examples I know of is this: Beethoven's opera, Fidelio, is
magnificent.
(Why can't I do italics in Outlook Express???)
--
Keeper of the memory and method of Francis Christensen.
WriteforCollege.com
The Stewart English Program (epsbooks.com)
> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:05:40 -0600
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: A simple question?
>
> Jennifer,
>
> 1) The commas aren't needed with single word appositives: "My sister Alice
> was beautiful."
> 2) Quotes inside quotes are ranked. Usually we have a single quote mark if
> we are quoting the material around it with double quote marks.
> 3) I have seen where a linguist, who uses the single quote marks to speak of a
> word, per se, will keep the mark within the comma. Normally the mark will
> include the comma, especially where multiple words are involved. Scientists,
> who tend to be more logical, often resist custom and insist on following logic
> in this regard.
>
> Bruce
>
>>>> [log in to unmask] 07/26/01 01:42PM >>>
> Hello one and all,
>
> I have a question. Is the placement of commas inside the quotation marks
> correct in this sentence: "The sculpture,"Discus Thrower," was beautiful to
> behold." That is, are commas always inside quotations?
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 16:26:02 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Those participials
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Don:
I think that Max's revision, replacing I with George, makes clear (to me,
at least) that for your hammering phrase to modify your object (him) you'll
have to omit the comma. The comma changes the meaning; it changes the
subject of hammering. The participial phrase here is not a free modifier
in the Christensen sense; it's a modifier of the direct object. Compare it
with
We watched the kids in the park playing soccer.
I don't think you'd be tempted to use a comma here, and adding an
adverbial modifier to the participial phrase, as you did, would not change
that, even though that added phrase tends to make it sound or look like a
sentence modifier:
We watched the kids in park playing soccer for all they were worth.
I'm almost tempted to treat that participial phrase as an object
complement: Not only does it modify the object; it also completes the
verbal idea, as object complements do. Your hammering sentence and my
soccer sentence are really different from
Joe washed the car standing in the driveway.
That's clearly a "which one" kind of modifier; it doesn't complete the
verb. However, I heard the hammering and we watched the playing.
As you can see, I'm groping here! Looking for a way to justify getting rid
of your comma! I do think that giving the hammering phrase independent
status turns it into a fuzzy construction.
Martha
>Now's the time for me to jump in with a question that's been on my mind for
>a while. Sophie points out that the participial phrase at the end acts like
>a foreshortened sentence and thus refers back to the subject. Martha adds
>good examples and rightly advocates the use of the nonrestrictive
>participles.
>
>But what about one like "I could hear him down in his workshop, hammering
>away on his latest project"? I see that this could be written "I could hear
>him hammering away on his latest project down in the basement."
>
>Is the ability to be written as restrictive, which seems to coincide with
>the inability to float as a free modifier, the defining quality of this
>participial phrase that keeps it from getting all the way back to modify the
>subject?
>
>Don Stewart
>--
>Keeper of the memory and method of Francis Christensen.
>WriteforCollege.com
>The Stewart English Program (epsbooks.com)
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:18:22 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A simple question?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You are quite right about the issue. It seems that the commas are =
justified by whether the appositive is non-restrictive or identifying in =
nature. This works for one's siblings. Yet when we consider Beethoven's =
opera, we ask did he write any other opera? Fidelio was his only =
attempt! So are the commas there simply by custom having no real rule to =
justify them?
>>> [log in to unmask] 07/26/01 02:55PM >>>
Bruce,
I'm afraid I must disagree with your #1 comment below. Whether the
appositive is one word or more than one word is not the issue. The issue =
is
whether the appositive is necessary. My usual way to teach this is to ask
who has one brother (or sister) and who has more than one. I then write =
out
the two variations:
My brother Charlie lives in Chicago.
My brother, Charlie, lives in Chicago.
One of the best examples I know of is this: Beethoven's opera, Fidelio, is
magnificent.
(Why can't I do italics in Outlook Express???)
--
Keeper of the memory and method of Francis Christensen.
WriteforCollege.com
The Stewart English Program (epsbooks.com)
> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:05:40 -0600
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: A simple question?
>
> Jennifer,
>
> 1) The commas aren't needed with single word appositives: "My sister =
Alice
> was beautiful."
> 2) Quotes inside quotes are ranked. Usually we have a single quote =
mark if
> we are quoting the material around it with double quote marks.
> 3) I have seen where a linguist, who uses the single quote marks to =
speak of a
> word, per se, will keep the mark within the comma. Normally the mark =
will
> include the comma, especially where multiple words are involved. =
Scientists,
> who tend to be more logical, often resist custom and insist on following =
logic
> in this regard.
>
> Bruce
>
>>>> [log in to unmask] 07/26/01 01:42PM >>>
> Hello one and all,
>
> I have a question. Is the placement of commas inside the quotation =
marks
> correct in this sentence: "The sculpture,"Discus Thrower," was =
beautiful to
> behold." That is, are commas always inside quotations?
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=20
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=20
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=20
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:26:05 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A simple question?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry for my foot-in-mouth comments. That was just your point and I =
missed it.l
>>> [log in to unmask] 07/26/01 02:55PM >>>
Bruce,
I'm afraid I must disagree with your #1 comment below. Whether the
appositive is one word or more than one word is not the issue. The issue =
is
whether the appositive is necessary. My usual way to teach this is to ask
who has one brother (or sister) and who has more than one. I then write =
out
the two variations:
My brother Charlie lives in Chicago.
My brother, Charlie, lives in Chicago.
One of the best examples I know of is this: Beethoven's opera, Fidelio, is
magnificent.
(Why can't I do italics in Outlook Express???)
--
Keeper of the memory and method of Francis Christensen.
WriteforCollege.com
The Stewart English Program (epsbooks.com)
> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:05:40 -0600
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: A simple question?
>
> Jennifer,
>
> 1) The commas aren't needed with single word appositives: "My sister =
Alice
> was beautiful."
> 2) Quotes inside quotes are ranked. Usually we have a single quote =
mark if
> we are quoting the material around it with double quote marks.
> 3) I have seen where a linguist, who uses the single quote marks to =
speak of a
> word, per se, will keep the mark within the comma. Normally the mark =
will
> include the comma, especially where multiple words are involved. =
Scientists,
> who tend to be more logical, often resist custom and insist on following =
logic
> in this regard.
>
> Bruce
>
>>>> [log in to unmask] 07/26/01 01:42PM >>>
> Hello one and all,
>
> I have a question. Is the placement of commas inside the quotation =
marks
> correct in this sentence: "The sculpture,"Discus Thrower," was =
beautiful to
> behold." That is, are commas always inside quotations?
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=20
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=20
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
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Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:05:06 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Richard Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A simple question?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="Boundary_(ID_aSKpw2zjOxLLbr5bejco8w)"
--Boundary_(ID_aSKpw2zjOxLLbr5bejco8w)
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
At 04:05 PM 7/26/2001, you wrote:
>Jennifer,
>
>1) The commas aren't needed with single word appositives: "My sister
>Alice was beautiful."
Actually the distinction is between restrictive appositives (no commas) and
nonrestrictive appositives (commas). The number of words has nothing to do
with it.
Restrictive examples (note: these are read with no pauses):
The color purple is ...
Shakespeare's play The Merchant of Venice is ...
My son the doctor is ...
Nonrestrictive examples (note the pauses where the commas are):
My favorite color, purple, is ...
Shakespeare's most celebrated play, Hamlet, is ...
My father, a Korean War veteran, is ...
Dick Veit
--Boundary_(ID_aSKpw2zjOxLLbr5bejco8w)
Content-type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
<html>
At 04:05 PM 7/26/2001, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Jennifer,<br><br>
1) The commas aren't needed with single word appositives: "My
sister Alice was beautiful."</blockquote><br>
Actually the distinction is between restrictive appositives (no commas)
and nonrestrictive appositives (commas). The number of words has nothing
to do with it.<br><br>
Restrictive examples (note: these are read with no pauses):<br><br>
The color purple is ...<br>
Shakespeare's play <i>The Merchant of Venice</i> is ...<br>
My son the doctor is ...<br><br>
Nonrestrictive examples (note the pauses where the commas are):<br><br>
My favorite color, purple, is ...<br>
Shakespeare's most celebrated play, <i>Hamlet</i>, is ...<br>
My father, a Korean War veteran, is ...<br><br>
Dick Veit</html>
--Boundary_(ID_aSKpw2zjOxLLbr5bejco8w)--
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Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 16:31:34 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Glauner, Jeff" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A simple question?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Jennifer,
That's a matter of context. In most situations, no one will care whether
you put your quotation marks inside or outside the comma. However, if what
you are writing is important in some professional or political sense, you
need to discover what style guide your reader expects you to follow. For
instance, if you are writing to an organization that requires MLA style in
its publications, you should use MLA style. In many cases, there is no way
to discover this without asking.
Two style guides are particularly authoritative for public writing tasks
where no particular guide is prescribed. The first, the MLA, I mentioned.
The other is the APA (American Psychological Association). They are quite
similar except to the specialist. If you are down to figuring out which of
the two to follow in some minor point, you have probably come to the point
where it doesn't matter very much. Then, the most important advice I can
give is to be consistent. That is, do it the same way throughout your
document.
Jeff Glauner
Associate Professor of English
Park University, Box 1303
8700 River Park Drive
Parkville MO 64152
[log in to unmask]
http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: Rabinowitz, Jennifer [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:06 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: A simple question?
Thank you. Here's another question, then: what to do about conflicting
rules on usage? Which to use, and why?
-----Original Message-----
From: Glauner, Jeff [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: A simple question?
Some style guides disagree on this point, but the MLA (Modern Language
Association) style guide places commas inside quotation marks.
One problem in your sentence, however, is that quotation marks that occur
within other quotation marks are single instead of double symbols: "The
sculpture, 'The Discus Thrower,' was beautiful to behold."
I'll leave the question that might arise of whether the name of an artwork
should be in italics or enclosed in quotation marks for another day.
Jeff Glauner
Associate Professor of English
Park University, Box 1303
8700 River Park Drive
Parkville MO 64152
[log in to unmask]
http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: Rabinowitz, Jennifer [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 2:43 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: A simple question?
Hello one and all,
I have a question. Is the placement of commas inside the quotation marks
correct in this sentence: "The sculpture,"Discus Thrower," was beautiful to
behold." That is, are commas always inside quotations?
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:30:25 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A simple question?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The restictive/nonrestrictive example I used in my classes was
My husband, John, is a farmer.
My son John is a student.
I would ask my students why I punctuated them differently; and I would ask
what they knew about the size of my family. It's also a lesson about
intonation. The first has three intonation contours; the second, only one.
Martha Kolln
>Bruce,
>
>I'm afraid I must disagree with your #1 comment below. Whether the
>appositive is one word or more than one word is not the issue. The issue is
>whether the appositive is necessary. My usual way to teach this is to ask
>who has one brother (or sister) and who has more than one. I then write out
>the two variations:
>
>My brother Charlie lives in Chicago.
>My brother, Charlie, lives in Chicago.
>
>One of the best examples I know of is this: Beethoven's opera, Fidelio, is
>magnificent.
>
>(Why can't I do italics in Outlook Express???)
>
>
>--
>Keeper of the memory and method of Francis Christensen.
>WriteforCollege.com
>The Stewart English Program (epsbooks.com)
>> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
>> Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> <[log in to unmask]>
>> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:05:40 -0600
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: A simple question?
>>
>> Jennifer,
>>
>> 1) The commas aren't needed with single word appositives: "My sister Alice
>> was beautiful."
>> 2) Quotes inside quotes are ranked. Usually we have a single quote mark if
>> we are quoting the material around it with double quote marks.
>> 3) I have seen where a linguist, who uses the single quote marks to speak of
>>a
>> word, per se, will keep the mark within the comma. Normally the mark will
>> include the comma, especially where multiple words are involved. Scientists,
>> who tend to be more logical, often resist custom and insist on following
>>logic
>> in this regard.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>>>> [log in to unmask] 07/26/01 01:42PM >>>
>> Hello one and all,
>>
>> I have a question. Is the placement of commas inside the quotation marks
>> correct in this sentence: "The sculpture,"Discus Thrower," was beautiful to
>> behold." That is, are commas always inside quotations?
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>>at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>>at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 18:04:13 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: The Total Tutor
Subject: Re: SPAM and viruses
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Omar is absolutely right and gives good advice. It would also be useful to
try to get the servers to investigate any SPAM -- although it's nearly
impossible to get good results from most of them. I always foreward such
messages to my server's abuse desk.
In the meantime, is there any way we can protect the listserve from these
abusers?
Paul E. Doniger
----- Original Message -----
From: omarjohns <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: paper---13
> Monday, November 12, 2001, 10:34:43 PM, you wrote:
>
> CEP> Hi! How are you?
>
> CEP> I send you this file in order to have your advice
>
> CEP> See you later. Thanks
>
> This is obviously a virus. Lucky 13. Get it?
>
> Immediately delete anything in your box looks like this.
>
> No one who says Hi how are you! wants my advice, and they don't want
> yours.
>
> And never open unsolicited attachments unless you are absolutely
> certain of the sender.
>
> Forewarned is forearmed.
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
>
> Omar mailto:[log in to unmask]
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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>
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>
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Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 18:09:02 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: The Total Tutor
Subject: Re: A simple question?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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All this is good information, but there is one more warning. MLA requires
the titles of works of art (painting, sculpture, etc.) to be underlined or
placed in italics, not in quotation marks. This particular example wasn't a
good one. What Jeff says, however, is correct for things like the titlea of
single poems (not a book length poem, however), for example.
Paul E. Doniger
----- Original Message -----
From: Glauner, Jeff <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: A simple question?
> Some style guides disagree on this point, but the MLA (Modern Language
> Association) style guide places commas inside quotation marks.
>
> One problem in your sentence, however, is that quotation marks that occur
> within other quotation marks are single instead of double symbols: "The
> sculpture, 'The Discus Thrower,' was beautiful to behold."
>
> I'll leave the question that might arise of whether the name of an artwork
> should be in italics or enclosed in quotation marks for another day.
>
> Jeff Glauner
> Associate Professor of English
> Park University, Box 1303
> 8700 River Park Drive
> Parkville MO 64152
> [log in to unmask]
> http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rabinowitz, Jennifer [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 2:43 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: A simple question?
>
>
> Hello one and all,
>
> I have a question. Is the placement of commas inside the quotation marks
> correct in this sentence: "The sculpture,"Discus Thrower," was beautiful
to
> behold." That is, are commas always inside quotations?
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 18:41:47 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Haiku
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Those of you who use technology in your classes--and, perhaps, teach poetry
as well--might enjoy these examples of Haiku!
Martha
In Japan, they have replaced the impersonal and unhelpful Microsoft error
messages with Haiku poetry messages. Haiku poetry has strict construction
rules. Each poem has only three lines, 17 syllables: five syllables in the
first line, seven in the second, five in the third. Haiku is used to
communicate a timeless message often achieving a wistful, yearning and
powerful insight through extreme brevity -- the essence of Zen
--------------------------------------
Your file was so big.
It might be very useful.
But now it is gone.
--------------------------------------
The Website you seek
Cannot be located, but
Countless more exist.
--------------------------------------
Chaos reigns within.
Reflect, repent, and reboot.
Order shall return.
--------------------------------------
Program aborting
Close all that you have worked on.
You ask far too much.
-------------------------------------------
Windows NT crashed.
I am the Blue Screen of Death.
No one hears your screams.
-------------------------------------------
Yesterday it worked.
Today it is not working.
Windows is like that.
-------------------------------------------
First snow, then silence.
This thousand-dollar screen dies
So beautifully.
-------------------------------------------
With searching comes loss
And the presence of absence
"My Novel" not found.
-------------------------------------------
The Tao that is seen
Is not the true Tao-until
You bring fresh toner.
-------------------------------------------
Stay the patient course.
Of little worth is your ire.
The network is down.
-------------------------------------------
A crash reduces
Your expensive computer
To a simple stone.
-------------------------------------------
Three things are certain
Death, taxes and lost data.
Guess which has occurred.
-------------------------------------------
You step in the stream,
But the water has moved on.
This page is not here.
-------------------------------------------
Out of memory.
We wish to hold the whole sky,
But we never will.
-------------------------------------------
Having been erased,
The document you're seeking
Must now be retyped.
-------------------------------------------
Serious error.
All shortcuts have disappeared.
Screen. Mind. Both are blank.
______________________________
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:52:35 +1000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Sophie Johnson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A simple question?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jennifer and Bruce, there is an issue of meaning, here: `My sister Alice was
beautiful'. Without commas to demarcate `Alice', the semantic template is
`Some things that are "my sister" are `all things that are "Alice" '. With
commas: `My sister, Alice, was beautiful', that template is `All things that
are "my sister" are all things that are "Alice".
Sophie Johnson
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 6:05 AM
Subject: Re: A simple question?
Jennifer,
1) The commas aren't needed with single word appositives: "My sister Alice
was beautiful."
2) Quotes inside quotes are ranked. Usually we have a single quote mark if
we are quoting the material around it with double quote marks.
3) I have seen where a linguist, who uses the single quote marks to speak of
a word, per se, will keep the mark within the comma. Normally the mark will
include the comma, especially where multiple words are involved.
Scientists, who tend to be more logical, often resist custom and insist on
following logic in this regard.
Bruce
>>> [log in to unmask] 07/26/01 01:42PM >>>
Hello one and all,
I have a question. Is the placement of commas inside the quotation marks
correct in this sentence: "The sculpture,"Discus Thrower," was beautiful to
behold." That is, are commas always inside quotations?
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:33:38 +1000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Sophie Johnson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Those participials
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Don, it seems to me that in your sentence: "I could hear him down in his
workshop, hammering away on his latest project", the sequence `hammering
away' is prevented from modifying the subject because it is itself part of
the object. I.e.: what "I" could hear is "him hammering away". There is no
participle phrase here. Rather, there is a noun phrase. (And, given that we
have a noun phrase, the relationship between pronoun and noun is genitive: I
could hear his ... hammering.)
Sophie
---- Original Message -----
From: Don Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 4:18 AM
Subject: Those participials
> Now's the time for me to jump in with a question that's been on my mind
for
> a while. Sophie points out that the participial phrase at the end acts
like
> a foreshortened sentence and thus refers back to the subject. Martha adds
> good examples and rightly advocates the use of the nonrestrictive
> participles.
>
> But what about one like "I could hear him down in his workshop, hammering
> away on his latest project"? I see that this could be written "I could
hear
> him hammering away on his latest project down in the basement."
>
> Is the ability to be written as restrictive, which seems to coincide with
> the inability to float as a free modifier, the defining quality of this
> participial phrase that keeps it from getting all the way back to modify
the
> subject?
>
> Don Stewart
> --
> Keeper of the memory and method of Francis Christensen.
> WriteforCollege.com
> The Stewart English Program (epsbooks.com)
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 20:58:23 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Geoff Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Haiku
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Martha - Wonderful! Your poems have been e-mailed, printed, copied, and
otherwise duplicated for the widest possible distribution. They will
certainly show up in my World Lit class where we study and write Haiku.
Thanks, Geoff Layton
At 06:41 PM 7/26/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Those of you who use technology in your classes--and, perhaps, teach poetry
>as well--might enjoy these examples of Haiku!
>
>Martha
>
>
>In Japan, they have replaced the impersonal and unhelpful Microsoft error
>messages with Haiku poetry messages. Haiku poetry has strict construction
>rules. Each poem has only three lines, 17 syllables: five syllables in the
>first line, seven in the second, five in the third. Haiku is used to
>communicate a timeless message often achieving a wistful, yearning and
>powerful insight through extreme brevity -- the essence of Zen
>
>--------------------------------------
>Your file was so big.
>It might be very useful.
>But now it is gone.
>--------------------------------------
>The Website you seek
>Cannot be located, but
>Countless more exist.
>--------------------------------------
>Chaos reigns within.
>Reflect, repent, and reboot.
>Order shall return.
>--------------------------------------
>Program aborting
>Close all that you have worked on.
>You ask far too much.
>-------------------------------------------
>Windows NT crashed.
>I am the Blue Screen of Death.
>No one hears your screams.
>-------------------------------------------
>Yesterday it worked.
>Today it is not working.
>Windows is like that.
>-------------------------------------------
>First snow, then silence.
>This thousand-dollar screen dies
>So beautifully.
>-------------------------------------------
>With searching comes loss
>And the presence of absence
>"My Novel" not found.
>-------------------------------------------
>The Tao that is seen
>Is not the true Tao-until
>You bring fresh toner.
>-------------------------------------------
>Stay the patient course.
>Of little worth is your ire.
>The network is down.
>-------------------------------------------
>A crash reduces
>Your expensive computer
>To a simple stone.
>-------------------------------------------
>Three things are certain
>Death, taxes and lost data.
>Guess which has occurred.
>-------------------------------------------
>You step in the stream,
>But the water has moved on.
>This page is not here.
>-------------------------------------------
>Out of memory.
>We wish to hold the whole sky,
>But we never will.
>-------------------------------------------
>Having been erased,
>The document you're seeking
>Must now be retyped.
>-------------------------------------------
>Serious error.
>All shortcuts have disappeared.
>Screen. Mind. Both are blank.
>______________________________
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:19:42 +1000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Sophie Johnson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Haiku
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Martha, thank you! I'm dining out on it with relish!
Sophie
----- Original Message -----
From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 9:41 AM
Subject: Haiku
> Those of you who use technology in your classes--and, perhaps, teach
poetry
> as well--might enjoy these examples of Haiku!
>
> Martha
>
>
> In Japan, they have replaced the impersonal and unhelpful Microsoft error
> messages with Haiku poetry messages. Haiku poetry has strict construction
> rules. Each poem has only three lines, 17 syllables: five syllables in the
> first line, seven in the second, five in the third. Haiku is used to
> communicate a timeless message often achieving a wistful, yearning and
> powerful insight through extreme brevity -- the essence of Zen
>
> --------------------------------------
> Your file was so big.
> It might be very useful.
> But now it is gone.
> --------------------------------------
> The Website you seek
> Cannot be located, but
> Countless more exist.
> --------------------------------------
> Chaos reigns within.
> Reflect, repent, and reboot.
> Order shall return.
> --------------------------------------
> Program aborting
> Close all that you have worked on.
> You ask far too much.
> -------------------------------------------
> Windows NT crashed.
> I am the Blue Screen of Death.
> No one hears your screams.
> -------------------------------------------
> Yesterday it worked.
> Today it is not working.
> Windows is like that.
> -------------------------------------------
> First snow, then silence.
> This thousand-dollar screen dies
> So beautifully.
> -------------------------------------------
> With searching comes loss
> And the presence of absence
> "My Novel" not found.
> -------------------------------------------
> The Tao that is seen
> Is not the true Tao-until
> You bring fresh toner.
> -------------------------------------------
> Stay the patient course.
> Of little worth is your ire.
> The network is down.
> -------------------------------------------
> A crash reduces
> Your expensive computer
> To a simple stone.
> -------------------------------------------
> Three things are certain
> Death, taxes and lost data.
> Guess which has occurred.
> -------------------------------------------
> You step in the stream,
> But the water has moved on.
> This page is not here.
> -------------------------------------------
> Out of memory.
> We wish to hold the whole sky,
> But we never will.
> -------------------------------------------
> Having been erased,
> The document you're seeking
> Must now be retyped.
> -------------------------------------------
> Serious error.
> All shortcuts have disappeared.
> Screen. Mind. Both are blank.
> ______________________________
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 23:24:29 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Don Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Those participials
In-Reply-To: <005101c11633$c85150c0$ddf1fea9@sofiejohnson>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Sophie,
Some interesting things are happening here. You say that there is no
participle here, that it is a noun phrase, a gerund. But to achieve that,
you had to change "him" to "his," the old possessive in front of the gerund
trick. I don't thinks so. This is "I saw him sitting in the park," not "I
heard his whistling in the dark."
Let's try a different tack. Let's try to get a real participial phrase that
makes it all the way back to the subject, using my sentence. How about "I
could hear him down in his workshop, wishing he would call it a night."
Does that work? Can anyone think of one that really does? And an explanation
of why?
P.S. Look at how all my commas and periods are inside the closing quotes. I
do believe that is the rule in both MLA and APA. Begging to differ with
Jeff, I don't think this is a minor point, and being consistently wrong is
not too good an idea either.
Don Stewart
--
Keeper of the memory and method of Francis Christensen.
WriteforCollege.com
The Stewart English Program (epsbooks.com)
> From: Sophie Johnson <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:33:38 +1000
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Those participials
>
> Don, it seems to me that in your sentence: "I could hear him down in his
> workshop, hammering away on his latest project", the sequence `hammering
> away' is prevented from modifying the subject because it is itself part of
> the object. I.e.: what "I" could hear is "him hammering away". There is no
> participle phrase here. Rather, there is a noun phrase. (And, given that we
> have a noun phrase, the relationship between pronoun and noun is genitive: I
> could hear his ... hammering.)
> Sophie
> ---- Original Message -----
> From: Don Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 4:18 AM
> Subject: Those participials
>
>
>> Now's the time for me to jump in with a question that's been on my mind
> for
>> a while. Sophie points out that the participial phrase at the end acts
> like
>> a foreshortened sentence and thus refers back to the subject. Martha adds
>> good examples and rightly advocates the use of the nonrestrictive
>> participles.
>>
>> But what about one like "I could hear him down in his workshop, hammering
>> away on his latest project"? I see that this could be written "I could
> hear
>> him hammering away on his latest project down in the basement."
>>
>> Is the ability to be written as restrictive, which seems to coincide with
>> the inability to float as a free modifier, the defining quality of this
>> participial phrase that keeps it from getting all the way back to modify
> the
>> subject?
>>
>> Don Stewart
>> --
>> Keeper of the memory and method of Francis Christensen.
>> WriteforCollege.com
>> The Stewart English Program (epsbooks.com)
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:01:42 +0200
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "W. van Bork" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: URGENT! VIRUS WARNING
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-755B16BF;
boundary="=======1AE16E34======="
--=======1AE16E34=======
Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-755B16BF; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
WARNING
The message that Christine E. Petrus sent to this group has an attachment
that contains the
Sircam virus! Don't open the attachment but delete it. If you need a
programme to check or disinfect your machine, go to:
www.symantec.com
Willem van Bork
--=======1AE16E34=======
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-755B16BF
Content-Disposition: inline
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 18-7-01
--=======1AE16E34=======--
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 15:52:56 +0300
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: omarjohns <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: URGENT! VIRUS WARNING
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
WvB> Sircam virus! Don't open the attachment but delete it. If you need a
WvB> programme to check or disinfect your machine, go to: www.symantec.com
WvB> Willem van Bork
I have given up on virus check/disinfect software. These always
interfere somehow with the way my machine works, they are expensive,
and their purchase turns into a rental arrangement after six months
once the manufacturer begins to extort a yearly fee for virus
definition updates. Virus paranoia is certainly big business for some.
I am using a small program called zonealarm from www.zonelabs.com
Zonealarm is free for home use, fully enabled, and nagless. It is not
an anti-virus utility but rather a firewall. It includes a feature
called mailsafe that examines incoming email attachments, renames
those with the extensions .exe .vbs and .com, then "quarantines" them.
You then have several options of what to do with them, and they would be
difficult to open by accident.
I highly recommend using zonealarm. Firewalls prevent outsiders from
accessing your on-line machine and using it for a variety of nefarious
ends.
Yesterday I received three virus bearing attachments from two
different lists. It is a normal week. Zonealarm kept them securely
muzzled until I got around to deleting them.
The only virus infection I have ever had was a word macro virus and
these will not be caught by zonealarm. You can protect yourself from
them by turning off one of MS Word's "features".
--
Best regards,
Omar mailto:[log in to unmask]
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 06:35:00 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ed Keer <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Different from/than
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi all,
We have a little controversy at work over _different
from_ and _different than_. Here's the sentence in
question:
a. Will the generic drug look different from/than my
brand-name drug?
I understand the traditional distinction that _from_,
a preposition, should be used with noun phrases and
_than_, a complementizer, should be used with clauses.
Going by this, _from_ should be used here. However,
I don't think I ever use _from_, and it sounds pretty
bad to me here.
I tried to convince others that _than_ is ok because
there is an elided verb in the complement--_than my
brand-name drug (does)_. They aren't going for it.
Anyway, is anyone aware of a dialect difference in the
use of _from_/_than_? Or am I the only one that does
this...
Ed Keer
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:54:55 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Haiku
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Geoff: They're not MY poems. They were sent to me, and I just sent them
on to my poetry-loving ATEGers. Don't give me the credit.
Martha
>Martha - Wonderful! Your poems have been e-mailed, printed, copied, and
>otherwise duplicated for the widest possible distribution. They will
>certainly show up in my World Lit class where we study and write Haiku.
>
>Thanks, Geoff Layton
>
>At 06:41 PM 7/26/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>Those of you who use technology in your classes--and, perhaps, teach poetry
>>as well--might enjoy these examples of Haiku!
>>
>>Martha
>>
>>
>>In Japan, they have replaced the impersonal and unhelpful Microsoft error
>>messages with Haiku poetry messages. Haiku poetry has strict construction
>>rules. Each poem has only three lines, 17 syllables: five syllables in the
>>first line, seven in the second, five in the third. Haiku is used to
>>communicate a timeless message often achieving a wistful, yearning and
>>powerful insight through extreme brevity -- the essence of Zen
>>
>>--------------------------------------
>>Your file was so big.
>>It might be very useful.
>>But now it is gone.
>>--------------------------------------
>>The Website you seek
>>Cannot be located, but
>>Countless more exist.
>>--------------------------------------
>>Chaos reigns within.
>>Reflect, repent, and reboot.
>>Order shall return.
>>--------------------------------------
>>Program aborting
>>Close all that you have worked on.
>>You ask far too much.
>>-------------------------------------------
>>Windows NT crashed.
>>I am the Blue Screen of Death.
>>No one hears your screams.
>>-------------------------------------------
>>Yesterday it worked.
>>Today it is not working.
>>Windows is like that.
>>-------------------------------------------
>>First snow, then silence.
>>This thousand-dollar screen dies
>>So beautifully.
>>-------------------------------------------
>>With searching comes loss
>>And the presence of absence
>>"My Novel" not found.
>>-------------------------------------------
>>The Tao that is seen
>>Is not the true Tao-until
>>You bring fresh toner.
>>-------------------------------------------
>>Stay the patient course.
>>Of little worth is your ire.
>>The network is down.
>>-------------------------------------------
>>A crash reduces
>>Your expensive computer
>>To a simple stone.
>>-------------------------------------------
>>Three things are certain
>>Death, taxes and lost data.
>>Guess which has occurred.
>>-------------------------------------------
>>You step in the stream,
>>But the water has moved on.
>>This page is not here.
>>-------------------------------------------
>>Out of memory.
>>We wish to hold the whole sky,
>>But we never will.
>>-------------------------------------------
>>Having been erased,
>>The document you're seeking
>>Must now be retyped.
>>-------------------------------------------
>>Serious error.
>>All shortcuts have disappeared.
>>Screen. Mind. Both are blank.
>>______________________________
>>
>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 20:44:13 +1000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Sophie Johnson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Those participials
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Don, I think that what we need to determine about participle-led sequences
is their specific syntactic role in each sentence. For instance, in your
sentence: `I saw him sitting in the park', the present-participle phrase has
an adjectival function (I saw the sitting-in-the-park him), and for that
reason, it can embed the structure of the sentence. In your sentence: `I
could hear him down in his workshop, wishing he would call it a night',
there is a lurking conjunction: `I could hear him down in his workshop and I
was wishing he would call it a night'. So this participle sequence is in
fact a foreshortened sentence. If it attaches successfully to the verb of
the leading sentence, then it is in order. If not, it `dangles' and is out
of order. But it cannot work its way back to modifying the subject of the
independent sentence `I could hear him' unless it can embed its structure.
And it cannot.
Sophie
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: Those participials
> Sophie,
>
> Some interesting things are happening here. You say that there is no
> participle here, that it is a noun phrase, a gerund. But to achieve that,
> you had to change "him" to "his," the old possessive in front of the
gerund
> trick. I don't thinks so. This is "I saw him sitting in the park," not "I
> heard his whistling in the dark."
>
> Let's try a different tack. Let's try to get a real participial phrase
that
> makes it all the way back to the subject, using my sentence. How about "I
> could hear him down in his workshop, wishing he would call it a night."
> Does that work? Can anyone think of one that really does? And an
explanation
> of why?
>
> P.S. Look at how all my commas and periods are inside the closing quotes.
I
> do believe that is the rule in both MLA and APA. Begging to differ with
> Jeff, I don't think this is a minor point, and being consistently wrong is
> not too good an idea either.
>
> Don Stewart
>
> --
> Keeper of the memory and method of Francis Christensen.
> WriteforCollege.com
> The Stewart English Program (epsbooks.com)
> > From: Sophie Johnson <[log in to unmask]>
> > Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> > <[log in to unmask]>
> > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:33:38 +1000
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Those participials
> >
> > Don, it seems to me that in your sentence: "I could hear him down in his
> > workshop, hammering away on his latest project", the sequence `hammering
> > away' is prevented from modifying the subject because it is itself part
of
> > the object. I.e.: what "I" could hear is "him hammering away". There is
no
> > participle phrase here. Rather, there is a noun phrase. (And, given that
we
> > have a noun phrase, the relationship between pronoun and noun is
genitive: I
> > could hear his ... hammering.)
> > Sophie
> > ---- Original Message -----
> > From: Don Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 4:18 AM
> > Subject: Those participials
> >
> >
> >> Now's the time for me to jump in with a question that's been on my mind
> > for
> >> a while. Sophie points out that the participial phrase at the end acts
> > like
> >> a foreshortened sentence and thus refers back to the subject. Martha
adds
> >> good examples and rightly advocates the use of the nonrestrictive
> >> participles.
> >>
> >> But what about one like "I could hear him down in his workshop,
hammering
> >> away on his latest project"? I see that this could be written "I could
> > hear
> >> him hammering away on his latest project down in the basement."
> >>
> >> Is the ability to be written as restrictive, which seems to coincide
with
> >> the inability to float as a free modifier, the defining quality of this
> >> participial phrase that keeps it from getting all the way back to
modify
> > the
> >> subject?
> >>
> >> Don Stewart
> >> --
> >> Keeper of the memory and method of Francis Christensen.
> >> WriteforCollege.com
> >> The Stewart English Program (epsbooks.com)
> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> > at:
> >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> >> and select "Join or leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:24:53 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Geoff Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Haiku
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Martha - I read someplace that there would be no literature if it weren't
for critics. I took this little aphorism to mean that people who are
sensitive, inquisitive, and insightful are required to separate the
literary wheat from the chaffe. The clear inference to me was that the
sensitive critic should receive credit for literature, just like the
author. And that is what I was thanking you for. So by "your poems" I
meant the poems that you had found and shared with us. Keep up the good work.
Geoff
PS: Actually, I didn't credit you as the author when I passed them on.
Maybe somebody will think I wrote them!
At 08:54 AM 7/27/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Geoff: They're not MY poems. They were sent to me, and I just sent them
>on to my poetry-loving ATEGers. Don't give me the credit.
>
>Martha
>
>
>
>
>>Martha - Wonderful! Your poems have been e-mailed, printed, copied, and
>>otherwise duplicated for the widest possible distribution. They will
>>certainly show up in my World Lit class where we study and write Haiku.
>>
>>Thanks, Geoff Layton
>>
>>At 06:41 PM 7/26/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>>Those of you who use technology in your classes--and, perhaps, teach poetry
>>>as well--might enjoy these examples of Haiku!
>>>
>>>Martha
>>>
>>>
>>>In Japan, they have replaced the impersonal and unhelpful Microsoft error
>>>messages with Haiku poetry messages. Haiku poetry has strict construction
>>>rules. Each poem has only three lines, 17 syllables: five syllables in the
>>>first line, seven in the second, five in the third. Haiku is used to
>>>communicate a timeless message often achieving a wistful, yearning and
>>>powerful insight through extreme brevity -- the essence of Zen
>>>
>>>--------------------------------------
>>>Your file was so big.
>>>It might be very useful.
>>>But now it is gone.
>>>--------------------------------------
>>>The Website you seek
>>>Cannot be located, but
>>>Countless more exist.
>>>--------------------------------------
>>>Chaos reigns within.
>>>Reflect, repent, and reboot.
>>>Order shall return.
>>>--------------------------------------
>>>Program aborting
>>>Close all that you have worked on.
>>>You ask far too much.
>>>-------------------------------------------
>>>Windows NT crashed.
>>>I am the Blue Screen of Death.
>>>No one hears your screams.
>>>-------------------------------------------
>>>Yesterday it worked.
>>>Today it is not working.
>>>Windows is like that.
>>>-------------------------------------------
>>>First snow, then silence.
>>>This thousand-dollar screen dies
>>>So beautifully.
>>>-------------------------------------------
>>>With searching comes loss
>>>And the presence of absence
>>>"My Novel" not found.
>>>-------------------------------------------
>>>The Tao that is seen
>>>Is not the true Tao-until
>>>You bring fresh toner.
>>>-------------------------------------------
>>>Stay the patient course.
>>>Of little worth is your ire.
>>>The network is down.
>>>-------------------------------------------
>>>A crash reduces
>>>Your expensive computer
>>>To a simple stone.
>>>-------------------------------------------
>>>Three things are certain
>>>Death, taxes and lost data.
>>>Guess which has occurred.
>>>-------------------------------------------
>>>You step in the stream,
>>>But the water has moved on.
>>>This page is not here.
>>>-------------------------------------------
>>>Out of memory.
>>>We wish to hold the whole sky,
>>>But we never will.
>>>-------------------------------------------
>>>Having been erased,
>>>The document you're seeking
>>>Must now be retyped.
>>>-------------------------------------------
>>>Serious error.
>>>All shortcuts have disappeared.
>>>Screen. Mind. Both are blank.
>>>______________________________
>>>
>>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>>at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>
>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:45:54 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Reinhold Schlieper <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Embry-Riddle University
Subject: Re: A simple question?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Some handbook somewhere and somewhen mentioned that the "period and
comma always inside" rule is an American typesetters' convention. I
have seen it frequently transgressed against in Australian and British
text. And I know that German doesn't abide by it at all.
==Reinhold
"Glauner, Jeff" wrote:
>
> Some style guides disagree on this point, but the MLA (Modern Language
> Association) style guide places commas inside quotation marks.
>
> One problem in your sentence, however, is that quotation marks that occur
> within other quotation marks are single instead of double symbols: "The
> sculpture, 'The Discus Thrower,' was beautiful to behold."
>
> I'll leave the question that might arise of whether the name of an artwork
> should be in italics or enclosed in quotation marks for another day.
>
> Jeff Glauner
> Associate Professor of English
> Park University, Box 1303
> 8700 River Park Drive
> Parkville MO 64152
> [log in to unmask]
> http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rabinowitz, Jennifer [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 2:43 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: A simple question?
>
> Hello one and all,
>
> I have a question. Is the placement of commas inside the quotation marks
> correct in this sentence: "The sculpture,"Discus Thrower," was beautiful to
> behold." That is, are commas always inside quotations?
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
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>
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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:52:16 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Reinhold Schlieper <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Embry-Riddle University
Subject: Re: A simple question?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Did none of your students ever speculate that you might indulge in
polyandric relationships? <grin>
==Reinhold
Martha Kolln wrote:
>
> The restictive/nonrestrictive example I used in my classes was
>
> My husband, John, is a farmer.
> My son John is a student.
>
> I would ask my students why I punctuated them differently; and I would ask
> what they knew about the size of my family. It's also a lesson about
> intonation. The first has three intonation contours; the second, only one.
>
> Martha Kolln
>
> >Bruce,
> >
> >I'm afraid I must disagree with your #1 comment below. Whether the
> >appositive is one word or more than one word is not the issue. The issue is
> >whether the appositive is necessary. My usual way to teach this is to ask
> >who has one brother (or sister) and who has more than one. I then write out
> >the two variations:
> >
> >My brother Charlie lives in Chicago.
> >My brother, Charlie, lives in Chicago.
> >
> >One of the best examples I know of is this: Beethoven's opera, Fidelio, is
> >magnificent.
> >
> >(Why can't I do italics in Outlook Express???)
> >
> >
> >--
> >Keeper of the memory and method of Francis Christensen.
> >WriteforCollege.com
> >The Stewart English Program (epsbooks.com)
> >> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
> >> Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> >> <[log in to unmask]>
> >> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:05:40 -0600
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Re: A simple question?
> >>
> >> Jennifer,
> >>
> >> 1) The commas aren't needed with single word appositives: "My sister Alice
> >> was beautiful."
> >> 2) Quotes inside quotes are ranked. Usually we have a single quote mark if
> >> we are quoting the material around it with double quote marks.
> >> 3) I have seen where a linguist, who uses the single quote marks to speak of
> >>a
> >> word, per se, will keep the mark within the comma. Normally the mark will
> >> include the comma, especially where multiple words are involved. Scientists,
> >> who tend to be more logical, often resist custom and insist on following
> >>logic
> >> in this regard.
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >>
> >>>>> [log in to unmask] 07/26/01 01:42PM >>>
> >> Hello one and all,
> >>
> >> I have a question. Is the placement of commas inside the quotation marks
> >> correct in this sentence: "The sculpture,"Discus Thrower," was beautiful to
> >> behold." That is, are commas always inside quotations?
> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> >>at:
> >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> >> and select "Join or leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> >>at:
> >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> >> and select "Join or leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> >and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:41:42 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Different from/than
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Ed,
I've noticed the same problem, mainly because I personally make the =
distinction all the time and everyone around me, on TV, in the newspapers, =
etc., seem to have forgot the prepostional object with "from" as a =
possibility. I have no problem with your sample sentence. Adjectives =
often have typical prepositions to relate to their "object". I suppose =
that "different" has a meaning that is so much like a comparative, it has =
also commandiered "than" from the comparative construction. =20
Bruce
>>> [log in to unmask] 07/27/01 07:35AM >>>
Hi all,
We have a little controversy at work over _different
from_ and _different than_. Here's the sentence in
question:
a. Will the generic drug look different from/than my
brand-name drug?
I understand the traditional distinction that _from_,
a preposition, should be used with noun phrases and
_than_, a complementizer, should be used with clauses.
Going by this, _from_ should be used here. However,
I don't think I ever use _from_, and it sounds pretty
bad to me here.
I tried to convince others that _than_ is ok because
there is an elided verb in the complement--_than my
brand-name drug (does)_. They aren't going for it.
Anyway, is anyone aware of a dialect difference in the
use of _from_/_than_? Or am I the only one that does
this...
Ed Keer
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/=20
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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:42:14 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A simple question?
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Indeed they did, Reinhold! But they also knew the conservative bent of
Pennsylvania's legislature--and that polyandric professors were unlikely to
be teaching at Penn State!
Martha
>Did none of your students ever speculate that you might indulge in
>polyandric relationships? <grin>
>
>==Reinhold
>
>Martha Kolln wrote:
>>
>> The restictive/nonrestrictive example I used in my classes was
>>
>> My husband, John, is a farmer.
>> My son John is a student.
>>
>> I would ask my students why I punctuated them differently; and I would ask
>> what they knew about the size of my family. It's also a lesson about
>> intonation. The first has three intonation contours; the second, only one.
>>
>> Martha Kolln
>>
>> >Bruce,
>> >
>> >I'm afraid I must disagree with your #1 comment below. Whether the
>> >appositive is one word or more than one word is not the issue. The issue is
>> >whether the appositive is necessary. My usual way to teach this is to ask
>> >who has one brother (or sister) and who has more than one. I then write out
>> >the two variations:
>> >
>> >My brother Charlie lives in Chicago.
>> >My brother, Charlie, lives in Chicago.
>> >
>> >One of the best examples I know of is this: Beethoven's opera, Fidelio, is
>> >magnificent.
>> >
>> >(Why can't I do italics in Outlook Express???)
>> >
>> >
>> >--
>> >Keeper of the memory and method of Francis Christensen.
>> >WriteforCollege.com
>> >The Stewart English Program (epsbooks.com)
>> >> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> >> <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:05:40 -0600
>> >> To: [log in to unmask]
>> >> Subject: Re: A simple question?
>> >>
>> >> Jennifer,
>> >>
>> >> 1) The commas aren't needed with single word appositives: "My sister
>>Alice
>> >> was beautiful."
>> >> 2) Quotes inside quotes are ranked. Usually we have a single quote mark
>>if
>> >> we are quoting the material around it with double quote marks.
>> >> 3) I have seen where a linguist, who uses the single quote marks to speak
>>of
>> >>a
>> >> word, per se, will keep the mark within the comma. Normally the mark will
>> >> include the comma, especially where multiple words are involved.
>>Scientists,
>> >> who tend to be more logical, often resist custom and insist on following
>> >>logic
>> >> in this regard.
>> >>
>> >> Bruce
>> >>
>> >>>>> [log in to unmask] 07/26/01 01:42PM >>>
>> >> Hello one and all,
>> >>
>> >> I have a question. Is the placement of commas inside the quotation marks
>> >> correct in this sentence: "The sculpture,"Discus Thrower," was beautiful
>>to
>> >> behold." That is, are commas always inside quotations?
>> >>
>> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>> >>at:
>> >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> >> and select "Join or leave the list"
>> >>
>> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>> >>
>> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>> >>at:
>> >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> >> and select "Join or leave the list"
>> >>
>> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>> >
>> >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>>at:
>> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> >and select "Join or leave the list"
>> >
>> >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>>at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:32:09 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Haiku
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
I thought you would enjoy the response from a friend of mine . . .
Reply to: RE: FW: Haiku
THIS IS BRILLIANT! BRILLIANT, DO YOU HEAR ME??? I am laughing out
loud--HOWLING actually, and forwarding it to anyone I can think of who is
worthy of the laugh and can understand the sheer BRILLIANCE of these haikus.
Thank you, thank you.
> From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 18:41:47 -0500
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Haiku
>
> Those of you who use technology in your classes--and, perhaps, teach poetry
> as well--might enjoy these examples of Haiku!
>
> Martha
>
>
> In Japan, they have replaced the impersonal and unhelpful Microsoft error
> messages with Haiku poetry messages. Haiku poetry has strict construction
> rules. Each poem has only three lines, 17 syllables: five syllables in the
> first line, seven in the second, five in the third. Haiku is used to
> communicate a timeless message often achieving a wistful, yearning and
> powerful insight through extreme brevity -- the essence of Zen
>
> --------------------------------------
> Your file was so big.
> It might be very useful.
> But now it is gone.
> --------------------------------------
> The Website you seek
> Cannot be located, but
> Countless more exist.
> --------------------------------------
> Chaos reigns within.
> Reflect, repent, and reboot.
> Order shall return.
> --------------------------------------
> Program aborting
> Close all that you have worked on.
> You ask far too much.
> -------------------------------------------
> Windows NT crashed.
> I am the Blue Screen of Death.
> No one hears your screams.
> -------------------------------------------
> Yesterday it worked.
> Today it is not working.
> Windows is like that.
> -------------------------------------------
> First snow, then silence.
> This thousand-dollar screen dies
> So beautifully.
> -------------------------------------------
> With searching comes loss
> And the presence of absence
> "My Novel" not found.
> -------------------------------------------
> The Tao that is seen
> Is not the true Tao-until
> You bring fresh toner.
> -------------------------------------------
> Stay the patient course.
> Of little worth is your ire.
> The network is down.
> -------------------------------------------
> A crash reduces
> Your expensive computer
> To a simple stone.
> -------------------------------------------
> Three things are certain
> Death, taxes and lost data.
> Guess which has occurred.
> -------------------------------------------
> You step in the stream,
> But the water has moved on.
> This page is not here.
> -------------------------------------------
> Out of memory.
> We wish to hold the whole sky,
> But we never will.
> -------------------------------------------
> Having been erased,
> The document you're seeking
> Must now be retyped.
> -------------------------------------------
> Serious error.
> All shortcuts have disappeared.
> Screen. Mind. Both are blank.
> ______________________________
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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>
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>
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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:26:05 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Suzanne S Webb <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: FYI
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AskOxford.com
http://www.askoxford.com/
Launched on July 12 in conjunction with the revised edition of the =
_Concise
Oxford Dictionary_, this site offers an array of resources to help =
visitors
make the best use of the English langauge. Features include a word of =
the
day, quote of the week, language and writing tips, question and answer, =
word
games, a jargon buster, and education resources. Users may also email
queries to the Oxford Word and Language Service.=20
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>AskOxford.com<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.askoxford.com/">http://www.askoxford.com/</A><BR><BR>L=
aunched=20
on July 12 in conjunction with the revised edition of the =
_Concise<BR>Oxford=20
Dictionary_, this site offers an array of resources to help =
visitors<BR>make the=20
best use of the English langauge. Features include a word of the<BR>day, =
quote=20
of the week, language and writing tips, question and answer, =
word<BR>games, a=20
jargon buster, and education resources. Users may also email<BR>queries =
to the=20
Oxford Word and Language Service. </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 02:32:16 +0200
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Maciek Traczyk <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: URGENT! VIRUS WARNING
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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On 01.7.27 2:52 PM, "omarjohns" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> I highly recommend using zonealarm.
I recommend using a Macintosh. In a long run it proves MUCH cheaper. I just
laugh at all viruses.
Keep it up!
MACiek
-------------------
[log in to unmask]
Tel +48-608-632-223
-------------------
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Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 11:42:44 +1000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Sophie Johnson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A simple question?
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Both British and Australian English observes the `comma inside' practice in
literary texts. The practice is called `the fiction-convention comma'. Under
that convention, the comma stays inside the direct-speech sequence: `I
really am hungry,' said John. But that comma is supposed to be confined to
fiction. (Ghastly, really, and quite illogical.)
Sophie
----- Original Message -----
From: Reinhold Schlieper <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: A simple question?
> Some handbook somewhere and somewhen mentioned that the "period and
> comma always inside" rule is an American typesetters' convention. I
> have seen it frequently transgressed against in Australian and British
> text. And I know that German doesn't abide by it at all.
>
> ==Reinhold
>
>
> "Glauner, Jeff" wrote:
> >
> > Some style guides disagree on this point, but the MLA (Modern Language
> > Association) style guide places commas inside quotation marks.
> >
> > One problem in your sentence, however, is that quotation marks that
occur
> > within other quotation marks are single instead of double symbols: "The
> > sculpture, 'The Discus Thrower,' was beautiful to behold."
> >
> > I'll leave the question that might arise of whether the name of an
artwork
> > should be in italics or enclosed in quotation marks for another day.
> >
> > Jeff Glauner
> > Associate Professor of English
> > Park University, Box 1303
> > 8700 River Park Drive
> > Parkville MO 64152
> > [log in to unmask]
> > http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rabinowitz, Jennifer [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 2:43 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: A simple question?
> >
> > Hello one and all,
> >
> > I have a question. Is the placement of commas inside the quotation
marks
> > correct in this sentence: "The sculpture,"Discus Thrower," was
beautiful to
> > behold." That is, are commas always inside quotations?
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 08:23:15 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Carolyn Kinslow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Help with verbal as subject
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--------------53FAD6CF851AD56029B95758
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We have a disagreement about subject/verb agreement, and I would like the expert
opinions of the members of this list. The sentence generating the disagreement
reads,
"Learning and assimilating new information is always easier when the
information is presented in a familiar pattern."
One camp claims the singular verb, is, is correct; the other camp maintains that
the verb should be plural. How can I explain this construction?
Carolyn
--------------53FAD6CF851AD56029B95758
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
We have a disagreement about subject/verb agreement, and I would like the
expert opinions of the members of this list. The sentence generating
the disagreement reads,
<br>
<br> "Learning and assimilating
new information is always easier when the information is presented in a
familiar pattern."
<p>One camp claims the singular verb, <u>is</u>, is correct; the
other camp maintains that the verb should be plural. How can I explain
this construction?
<p>Carolyn
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br> </html>
--------------53FAD6CF851AD56029B95758--
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Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 09:55:29 EDT
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Barbara Grimes <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--part1_10c.372de0b.2896c151_boundary
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Hi. I'm no expert in these matters, but what would happen if you substituted
the pronoun "it" for your second "information"?
"Learning and assimilating new information is always easier when it is
presented in a familiar pattern." Do we still have the same problem? Would
the disagreement still arise over the use of a singular vs. a plural pronoun?
Is such a substitution viable?
Barb
--part1_10c.372de0b.2896c151_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Hi. I'm no expert in these matters, but what would happen if you substituted
<BR>the pronoun "it" for your second "information"?
<BR>
<BR> "Learning and assimilating new information is always easier when it is
<BR>presented in a familiar pattern." Do we still have the same problem? Would
<BR>the disagreement still arise over the use of a singular vs. a plural pronoun?
<BR>Is such a substitution viable?
<BR>
<BR>Barb</FONT></HTML>
--part1_10c.372de0b.2896c151_boundary--
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Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 09:15:32 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "Rabinowitz, Jennifer" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
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I am also not an expert here, but by using "it" you are weighing in with the
singular camp--otherwise the choice would be they. I am inclined towards
the singular also--first, learning and assimilating information are not
separate acts, but really only two different words to describe the same
occurrence (taking in information). Does that make sense?
-----Original Message-----
From: Barbara Grimes [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 9:55 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
Hi. I'm no expert in these matters, but what would happen if you substituted
the pronoun "it" for your second "information"?
"Learning and assimilating new information is always easier when it is
presented in a familiar pattern." Do we still have the same problem? Would
the disagreement still arise over the use of a singular vs. a plural
pronoun?
Is such a substitution viable?
Barb
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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=351471214-30072001>I am
also not an expert here, but by using "it" you are weighing in with
the singular camp--otherwise the choice would be <EM>they</EM>.
I am inclined towards the singular also--first, learning and assimilating
information are not separate acts, but really only two different words
to describe the same occurrence (taking in
information). Does that make sense?
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Barbara Grimes
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 30, 2001 9:55
AM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Help with
verbal as subject<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT
face="Times New Roman" lang=0 size=3 FAMILY="SERIF">Hi. I'm no expert in these
matters, but what would happen if you substituted <BR>the pronoun "it" for
your second "information"?
<BR><BR> "Learning and assimilating new
information is always easier when it is <BR>presented in a familiar pattern."
Do we still have the same problem? Would <BR>the disagreement still arise over
the use of a singular vs. a plural pronoun? <BR>Is such a substitution viable?
<BR><BR>Barb</FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 10:58:29 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: The Total Tutor
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
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Singular is correct. The subject is neither 'learning' nor =
'assimilating', but the entire phrase, "Learning and assimilating new =
information." The whole phrase is acting as a noun in the subject slot. =
It would make no sense to substitute 'they' in its place, but you could =
easily substitute 'it'. If you made the verb plural, then the 'it' in =
the relative clause ("when it ... ") would make no sense, either.
Paul E. Doniger
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Rabinowitz, Jennifer=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
I am also not an expert here, but by using "it" you are weighing in =
with the singular camp--otherwise the choice would be they. I am =
inclined towards the singular also--first, learning and assimilating =
information are not separate acts, but really only two different words =
to describe the same occurrence (taking in information). Does that =
make sense? =20
-----Original Message-----
From: Barbara Grimes [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 9:55 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
Hi. I'm no expert in these matters, but what would happen if you =
substituted=20
the pronoun "it" for your second "information"?=20
"Learning and assimilating new information is always easier =
when it is=20
presented in a familiar pattern." Do we still have the same problem? =
Would=20
the disagreement still arise over the use of a singular vs. a plural =
pronoun?=20
Is such a substitution viable?=20
Barb=20
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Singular is correct. The subject is neither 'learning' nor =
'assimilating',=20
but the entire phrase, "Learning and assimilating new information." The =
whole=20
phrase is acting as a noun in the subject slot. It would make no sense =
to=20
substitute 'they' in its place, but you could easily substitute 'it'. If =
you=20
made the verb plural, then the 'it' in the relative clause ("when it ... =
")=20
would make no sense, either.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Paul E. Doniger</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
[log in to unmask]>Rabinowitz, Jennifer</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 30, 2001 =
10:15=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Help with verbal =
as=20
subject</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D351471214-30072001>I am=20
also not an expert here, but by using "it" you are weighing =
in with=20
the singular camp--otherwise the choice would be=20
<EM>they</EM>. I am inclined towards the singular also--first, =
learning=20
and assimilating information are not separate acts, but really =
only=20
two different words to describe the same occurrence =
(taking in=20
information). Does that make =
sense? =20
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Barbara Grimes=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 30, 2001 9:55 =
AM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
Help with=20
verbal as subject<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT =
face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SERIF">Hi. I'm =
no expert in=20
these matters, but what would happen if you substituted <BR>the =
pronoun "it"=20
for your second "information"?=20
<BR><BR> "Learning and =
assimilating new=20
information is always easier when it is <BR>presented in a familiar=20
pattern." Do we still have the same problem? Would <BR>the =
disagreement=20
still arise over the use of a singular vs. a plural pronoun? <BR>Is =
such a=20
substitution viable? <BR><BR>Barb</FONT>=20
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 15:40:50 +0100
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: S K Casson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
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I'd be interested to know why the other camp maintains the verb should be
plural agreement? Is it because they state that information is
a plural noun (like 'data')? Or is
it because they feeling that 'learning information' and 'assimilating
information' are implied (i.e. there is ellipsis) and thus plural
agreement is required in the first instance (but not the second).
In either case, I don't agree.
On Mon, 30 Jul 2001, Carolyn Kinslow wrote:
> We have a disagreement about subject/verb agreement, and I would like the expert
> opinions of the members of this list. The sentence generating the disagreement
> reads,
>
> "Learning and assimilating new information is always easier when the
> information is presented in a familiar pattern."
>
> One camp claims the singular verb, is, is correct; the other camp maintains that
> the verb should be plural. How can I explain this construction?
>
> Carolyn
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 08:57:40 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
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Barb,
I also am not an expert, but can't help but try to get in my 2 cents =
worth.
There is a difference here between the syntactic and the semantic =
structure. Syntactically I see the sentences as containing a compound =
subject, i. e., two elements connected with _and_:=20
Learning (new information)=20
and=20
assimilating new information
Conceived of as two different things, this compound would require a plural =
verb _are_. This might be the end of the story, except that the author =
probably meant that _assimilating new information_ was just another way of =
expressing what was meant by _learning_. In other words the _and_ was not =
meant as a compounder, but as a means of making the second phrase an =
appositive of the noun _learning_, which might normally be done with a =
phrase like _that is_. This does introduce ambiguity, as this is not a =
normal use of this conjunction. Yet the meaning seems clear enough: these =
are indeed two expressions for the same thing. =20
In speech and "careless" writing these kinds of difficulties creep in all =
the time. Sometimes it is best to rewrite the sentence to clarify the =
logical relationship. I would be inclined to say,=20
Learning in general is nothing more than assimilating new information, and =
this is always easier when the teacher presents the new information in a =
pattern already familiar to the learner. =20
Bruce
>>> [log in to unmask] 07/30/01 08:15AM >>>
I am also not an expert here, but by using "it" you are weighing in with =
the
singular camp--otherwise the choice would be they. I am inclined towards
the singular also--first, learning and assimilating information are not
separate acts, but really only two different words to describe the same
occurrence (taking in information). Does that make sense?
-----Original Message-----
From: Barbara Grimes [mailto:[log in to unmask]]=20
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 9:55 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
Hi. I'm no expert in these matters, but what would happen if you substitute=
d
the pronoun "it" for your second "information"?
"Learning and assimilating new information is always easier when it =
is
presented in a familiar pattern." Do we still have the same problem? Would
the disagreement still arise over the use of a singular vs. a plural
pronoun?
Is such a substitution viable?
Barb
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Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 12:31:30 EDT
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Barbara Grimes <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
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Paul,
That was my feeling as well, which is why I thought that substituting "it"
made more sense than substituting "they". It seems that we have a situation
similar to the following:
"Peanut butter and jelly makes a great sandwich."
We usually treat peanut butter and jelly as one item despite the "and".
That's what the other example reminded me of.
Barb
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Paul,
<BR>
<BR>That was my feeling as well, which is why I thought that substituting "it"
<BR>made more sense than substituting "they". It seems that we have a situation
<BR>similar to the following:
<BR>
<BR> "Peanut butter and jelly makes a great sandwich."
<BR>
<BR>We usually treat peanut butter and jelly as one item despite the "and".
<BR>That's what the other example reminded me of.
<BR>
<BR>Barb</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 11:37:58 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "Glauner, Jeff" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
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Singular is correct. The entire constituent, "Learning and assimilating new
information," is a gerund phrase (a nominal nonfinite verb phrase) serving
as the singular subject of the sentence.
Notice what happens, however, when we delete " . . . new information . . .
." Now we have two separate gerund phrases as compound subjects and the
verb reflects this by changing to "are."
"Learning and assimilating are always easier when the information is
presented in a familiar pattern."
But we have entered a fuzzy area here. It could be argued that "Learning
and assimilating" is still a singular act based upon its meaning in the
original sentence. It is dangerous to allow semantics to rub noses with
syntax. We rediscover that nothing is as simple as it seems.
Jeff Glauner
Associate Professor of English
Park University, Box 1303
8700 River Park Drive
Parkville MO 64152
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http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm
<http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm>
-----Original Message-----
From: Carolyn Kinslow [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 8:23 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Help with verbal as subject
We have a disagreement about subject/verb agreement, and I would like the
expert opinions of the members of this list. The sentence generating the
disagreement reads,
"Learning and assimilating new information is always easier when the
information is presented in a familiar pattern."
One camp claims the singular verb, is, is correct; the other camp maintains
that the verb should be plural. How can I explain this construction?
Carolyn
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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=600041416-30072001>Singular is correct. The
entire constituent, "Learning and assimilating new information," is a
gerund phrase (a nominal nonfinite verb phrase) serving as the singular subject
of the sentence. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=600041416-30072001></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial
size=2><SPAN class=600041416-30072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=600041416-30072001>Notice
what happens, however, when we delete " . . . new information . . . ." Now
we have two separate gerund phrases as compound subjects and the verb reflects
this by changing to "are."</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=600041416-30072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=center><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=600041416-30072001>"Learning and assimilating are always easier when the
information is presented in a familiar pattern." </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=center><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=600041416-30072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=600041416-30072001>But we have entered a fuzzy area here. It could
be argued that "Learning and assimilating" is still a singular act based upon
its <EM>meaning </EM>in the original sentence. It is dangerous to allow
semantics to rub noses with syntax. We rediscover that nothing is as
simple as it seems. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=center><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=600041416-30072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jeff Glauner</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Associate Professor of English</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>Park
University, Box 1303</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>8700 River Park
Drive</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>Parkville MO 64152</FONT> <BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2>[log in to unmask]</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><A
href="http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm"
target=_blank>http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm</A></FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Carolyn Kinslow
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 30, 2001 8:23
AM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Help with verbal
as subject<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>We have a disagreement about subject/verb
agreement, and I would like the expert opinions of the members of this
list. The sentence generating the disagreement reads, <BR>
<BR> "Learning and assimilating new
information is always easier when the information is presented in a familiar
pattern."
<P>One camp claims the singular verb, <U>is</U>, is correct; the other
camp maintains that the verb should be plural. How can I explain this
construction?
<P>Carolyn <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>
</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:16:17 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Carol Roberts <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Haiku
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Laurel,
Thanks so much for the haiku! I sent them to Eric who also enjoyed them =
very much (as did I) . He said (when I asked him) that they were probably =
not written by a native of Japan because 1) they are written in English, =
not Japanese, and 2) it is highly unlikely that a native speaker would =
translate them from Japanese like this. But they are certainly fun, =
nonetheless!
Carol
>>> [log in to unmask] 07/26/01 06:41PM >>>
Those of you who use technology in your classes--and, perhaps, teach =
poetry
as well--might enjoy these examples of Haiku!
Martha
In Japan, they have replaced the impersonal and unhelpful Microsoft error
messages with Haiku poetry messages. Haiku poetry has strict construction
rules. Each poem has only three lines, 17 syllables: five syllables in the
first line, seven in the second, five in the third. Haiku is used to
communicate a timeless message often achieving a wistful, yearning and
powerful insight through extreme brevity -- the essence of Zen
--------------------------------------
Your file was so big.
It might be very useful.
But now it is gone.
--------------------------------------
The Website you seek
Cannot be located, but
Countless more exist.
--------------------------------------
Chaos reigns within.
Reflect, repent, and reboot.
Order shall return.
--------------------------------------
Program aborting
Close all that you have worked on.
You ask far too much.
-------------------------------------------
Windows NT crashed.
I am the Blue Screen of Death.
No one hears your screams.
-------------------------------------------
Yesterday it worked.
Today it is not working.
Windows is like that.
-------------------------------------------
First snow, then silence.
This thousand-dollar screen dies
So beautifully.
-------------------------------------------
With searching comes loss
And the presence of absence
"My Novel" not found.
-------------------------------------------
The Tao that is seen
Is not the true Tao-until
You bring fresh toner.
-------------------------------------------
Stay the patient course.
Of little worth is your ire.
The network is down.
-------------------------------------------
A crash reduces
Your expensive computer
To a simple stone.
-------------------------------------------
Three things are certain
Death, taxes and lost data.
Guess which has occurred.
-------------------------------------------
You step in the stream,
But the water has moved on.
This page is not here.
-------------------------------------------
Out of memory.
We wish to hold the whole sky,
But we never will.
-------------------------------------------
Having been erased,
The document you're seeking
Must now be retyped.
-------------------------------------------
Serious error.
All shortcuts have disappeared.
Screen. Mind. Both are blank.
______________________________
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Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 14:46:26 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "Richard Veit, UNCW English Department" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
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I agree with Jeff: it depends on whether the gerunds constitute a unified
concept or two concepts.
Begetting and raising children is a major responsibility of marriage.
Begetting and raising children are very different activities.
Dick Veit
At 12:37 PM 07/30/2001, Jeff Glauner wrote:
>Singular is correct. The entire constituent, "Learning and assimilating
>new information," is a gerund phrase (a nominal nonfinite verb phrase)
>serving as the singular subject of the sentence.
>
>Notice what happens, however, when we delete " . . . new information . . .
>." Now we have two separate gerund phrases as compound subjects and the
>verb reflects this by changing to "are."
>
>"Learning and assimilating are always easier when the information is
>presented in a familiar pattern."
>
>But we have entered a fuzzy area here. It could be argued that "Learning
>and assimilating" is still a singular act based upon its meaning in the
>original sentence. It is dangerous to allow semantics to rub noses with
>syntax. We rediscover that nothing is as simple as it seems.
>
>Jeff Glauner
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<html>
I agree with Jeff: it depends on whether the gerunds constitute a unified
concept or two concepts. <br><br>
<font face="arial" size=2>Begetting and raising children is a major
responsibility of marriage.<br>
</font>Begetting and raising children are very different
activities.<br><br>
Dick Veit<br><br>
At 12:37 PM 07/30/2001, <font face="arial" size=2>Jeff Glauner</font>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite><font face="arial" size=2 color="#0000FF">Singular
is correct. The entire constituent, "Learning and assimilating
new information," is a gerund phrase (a nominal nonfinite verb
phrase) serving as the singular subject of the sentence.
</font><br>
<br>
<font face="arial" size=2 color="#0000FF">Notice what happens, however,
when we delete " . . . new information . . . ." Now we
have two separate gerund phrases as compound subjects and the verb
reflects this by changing to "are."</font><br>
<br>
<div align="center"><font face="arial" size=2 color="#0000FF">"Learning
and assimilating are always easier when the information is presented in a
familiar pattern." </font><br>
<br>
</div>
<font face="arial" size=2 color="#0000FF">But we have entered a fuzzy
area here. It could be argued that "Learning and
assimilating" is still a singular act based upon its <i>meaning
</i>in the original sentence. It is dangerous to allow semantics to
rub noses with syntax. We rediscover that nothing is as simple as
it seems.</font><br><br>
<font face="arial" size=2>Jeff Glauner</font> </blockquote></html>
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Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 15:35:08 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Carolyn Kinslow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
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My thanks to all who responded to my request for help. My camp was
obviously correct in contending that the verbal phrase called for a
singular verb. I appreciate the confirmation.
Carolyn
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Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 14:11:54 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Johanna Rubba <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Manufacture vs. Manufacturer
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People do not have to be taught the meaning of the agent 'er' suffix;
children master this on their own, and probably relatively early. It's a
frequent affix and children hear it on high-frequency words such as
'teacher', 'can opener', etc.
What is going on with 'manufacturer' is that the final two syllables
are identical, and in rapid speech, probably are pronounced most of the
time as a single, extra-long 'er' syllable. Unless one notices the extra
length, it can be understood as the same as 'manufacture'. I think this
is a case of spelling what one hears, and we sure are seeing a lot of
that these days (and probably always have).
I don't find this misspelling any more sensible than the tendency for
younger people to leave off the suffixes of 'prejudiced' and 'biased' in
their writing, as in 'he made a prejudice remark' or 'to hire only
whites is very bias', which also have their source in pronunciation--the
final 't' of the suffix gets lost, especially if a word beginning with a
consonant follows.
My own belief is that these errors would be less common if people read
more. Insisting on clarity of pronunciation is unrealistic, as the
natural speed of speech makes such shortcuts inevitable. Such speech is
not 'sloppy', but normal, given the speed of natural language
production. If we all enunciated every sound clearly and fully, our
listeners would not only lose patience but think us insufferably
snobbish. And we would take a lot longer to talk to each other.
Johanna Rubba
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Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 14:41:20 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Johanna Rubba <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A simple question?
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There's a differentiation in the use of commas around appositives that I
haven't seen anyone remark on yet. When the item is definite--already
introduced into the discourse--commas are used around the appositive.
When it is indefinite--being mentioned for the first time with the noun
phrase that the appositive accompanies--the commas can be left off.
Compare A, in which the sentence with the sculpture's title is the first
mention of the sculpture, with B, in which the sculpture is introduced
with the first sentence and continues to be a topic in the second.
A. We visited a museum recently that displayed several famous Rodin
sculptures. The sculpture 'The Discus Thrower' was beautiful to behold.
vs.
B. We saw a famous Rodin sculpture at the museum. The sculpture, 'The
Discus Thrower', was beautiful to behold.
This is probably a subcase of the restrictive/non-restrictive rule--in A
the second sentence picks out 'The Discus Thrower' from among all the
sculptures. There is only one candidate referent for 'the sculpture' in
the second sentence of B, so the title is non-restrictive. It's no
wonder people get confused about these comma rules. They're subtle.
Johanna Rubba
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Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 10:27:02 +1000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Sophie Johnson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
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It seems to me that the subject of this sentence is "Learning and =
assimilating new information". This noun-phrase subject is singular in =
the way that a single-noun/pronoun subject is singular. The entire =
phrase is inter-changeable with `It'. Agreement requires the singular =
copula `is'.=20
Sophie=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Carolyn Kinslow=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 11:23 PM
Subject: Help with verbal as subject
We have a disagreement about subject/verb agreement, and I would like =
the expert opinions of the members of this list. The sentence =
generating the disagreement reads,=20
=20
"Learning and assimilating new information is always easier =
when the information is presented in a familiar pattern."=20
One camp claims the singular verb, is, is correct; the other camp =
maintains that the verb should be plural. How can I explain this =
construction?=20
Carolyn=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C119AB.567CB540
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It seems to me that the subject of this =
sentence is=20
"Learning and assimilating new information". This noun-phrase subject is =
singular in the way that a single-noun/pronoun subject is =
singular. The=20
entire phrase is inter-changeable with `It'. Agreement requires the =
singular=20
copula `is'. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Sophie </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
[log in to unmask]>Carolyn=20
Kinslow</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 30, 2001 =
11:23=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Help with verbal as=20
subject</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>We have a disagreement about subject/verb agreement, =
and I=20
would like the expert opinions of the members of this list. The =
sentence=20
generating the disagreement reads, <BR> =20
<BR> "Learning and =
assimilating new=20
information is always easier when the information is presented in a =
familiar=20
pattern."=20
<P>One camp claims the singular verb, <U>is</U>, is correct; the =
other=20
camp maintains that the verb should be plural. How can I explain this=20
construction?=20
<P>Carolyn <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> =
<BR> =20
</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 12:14:16 +1000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Sophie Johnson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
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Jeff, how does this work: if `Learning and assimilating new information' =
is a noun subject in which `and' is a tautologous usage, then we have a =
singular noun subject; if `and' is a cumulative usage then we have a =
plural subject?=20
I now think I was not entitled to assume, as I did earlier, that `and' =
in this sentence is necessarily a tautologous usage. Such an assumption =
would not come as readily in these sort of sentences: `Learning and =
forgetting new information is always easier when the information is =
presented in a familiar pattern'; `Learning and forgetting new =
information are [both] easier when ...'.
Might one say that `is' or `are' agreements in these context are the =
morphological markers that reveal whether the subject is meant to be =
plural or singular?
Sophie=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Glauner, Jeff=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 2:37 AM
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
Singular is correct. The entire constituent, "Learning and =
assimilating new information," is a gerund phrase (a nominal nonfinite =
verb phrase) serving as the singular subject of the sentence. =20
=20
Notice what happens, however, when we delete " . . . new information . =
. . ." Now we have two separate gerund phrases as compound subjects and =
the verb reflects this by changing to "are."
=20
"Learning and assimilating are always easier when the information is =
presented in a familiar pattern."=20
=20
But we have entered a fuzzy area here. It could be argued that =
"Learning and assimilating" is still a singular act based upon its =
meaning in the original sentence. It is dangerous to allow semantics to =
rub noses with syntax. We rediscover that nothing is as simple as it =
seems. =20
=20
Jeff Glauner=20
Associate Professor of English=20
Park University, Box 1303=20
8700 River Park Drive=20
Parkville MO 64152=20
[log in to unmask]
http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Carolyn Kinslow [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 8:23 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Help with verbal as subject
We have a disagreement about subject/verb agreement, and I would =
like the expert opinions of the members of this list. The sentence =
generating the disagreement reads,=20
=20
"Learning and assimilating new information is always easier =
when the information is presented in a familiar pattern."=20
One camp claims the singular verb, is, is correct; the other camp =
maintains that the verb should be plural. How can I explain this =
construction?=20
Carolyn=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jeff, how does this work: if `Learning =
and=20
assimilating new information' is a noun subject in which `and' is a =
tautologous=20
usage, then we have a singular noun subject; if `and' is a cumulative =
usage then=20
we have a plural subject? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I now think I was not entitled to =
assume, as I did=20
earlier, that `and' in this sentence is necessarily a tautologous usage. =
Such an=20
assumption would not come as readily in these sort of sentences: =
`Learning=20
and <U>forgetting</U> new information is always easier when the =
information=20
is presented in a familiar pattern'; `Learning and forgetting new =
information=20
are [both] easier when ...'.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Might one say that `is' or `are' =
agreements in=20
these context are the morphological markers that reveal whether the =
subject is=20
meant to be plural or singular?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Sophie </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
[log in to unmask]>Glauner,=20
Jeff</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, July 31, 2001 =
2:37=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Help with verbal =
as=20
subject</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D600041416-30072001>Singular is correct. The=20
entire constituent, "Learning and assimilating new =
information," is=20
a gerund phrase (a nominal nonfinite verb phrase) serving as the =
singular=20
subject of the sentence. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D600041416-30072001></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2><SPAN class=3D600041416-30072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D600041416-30072001>Notice what happens, however, when we =
delete " . . .=20
new information . . . ." Now we have two separate gerund phrases =
as=20
compound subjects and the verb reflects this by changing=20
to "are."</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D600041416-30072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D600041416-30072001>"Learning and assimilating are always =
easier when the=20
information is presented in a familiar pattern." </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D600041416-30072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D600041416-30072001>But we have entered a fuzzy area =
here. It could=20
be argued that "Learning and assimilating" is still a singular act =
based upon=20
its <EM>meaning </EM>in the original sentence. It is dangerous =
to allow=20
semantics to rub noses with syntax. We rediscover that nothing =
is as=20
simple as it seems. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D600041416-30072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jeff Glauner</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Associate Professor of English</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Park=20
University, Box 1303</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>8700 River =
Park=20
Drive</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Parkville MO 64152</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>[log in to unmask]</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm</A></FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Carolyn Kinslow=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 30, 2001 =
8:23=20
AM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Help =
with=20
verbal as subject<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>We have a disagreement about=20
subject/verb agreement, and I would like the expert opinions of the =
members=20
of this list. The sentence generating the disagreement reads,=20
<BR> <BR> "Learning =
and=20
assimilating new information is always easier when the information =
is=20
presented in a familiar pattern."=20
<P>One camp claims the singular verb, <U>is</U>, is correct; =
the other=20
camp maintains that the verb should be plural. How can I explain =
this=20
construction?=20
<P>Carolyn <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> =
<BR> =20
</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 22:06:00 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Paul Pellikka <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
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"Learning and assimilating new information" is neither a noun phrase nor =
a noun subject, as Sophie suggested. It is a gerund phrase, which always =
functions nominally, in this case as subject. The agreement needs to be =
worked out on those structural grounds.
Paul Pellikka
[log in to unmask]
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Learning and assimilating new =
information" is=20
neither a noun phrase nor a noun subject, as Sophie suggested. It is a =
gerund=20
phrase, which always functions nominally, in this case as subject. The =
agreement=20
needs to be worked out on those structural grounds.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Paul Pellikka<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></FONT></D=
IV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 15:23:53 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Glauner, Jeff" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
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Yes. Call it a nominal subject instead of a noun subject.
Sophie,
Your last sentence is a reasonable way of stating it.
"Might one say that `is' or `are' agreements in these context are the
morphological markers that reveal whether the subject is meant to be plural
or singular?"
This is one reason that equating grammar with syntax is not entirely
accurate. Grammar also dips into morphology. Of course, these verbs are
more than morphological markers, but they are that along with everything
else linking verbs can be. It might be more accurate, though, to say that
they display certain morphological markers in these cases. Whether these
markers actually "reveal" the singular or plural intent is not absolute.
Consider, for instance, the differences between British and American
interpretations of singular and plural with group nouns (e.g., "The crew is
. . ." or "The crew are . . . ").
Note that your insertion of "[both]" seems to imply that we are more
trusting of semantic signifiers than of morphological markers. That would
make sense considering the limitations of the English morphological system.
Jeff Glauner
Associate Professor of English
Park University, Box 1303
8700 River Park Drive
Parkville MO 64152
[log in to unmask]
http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm
<http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm>
-----Original Message-----
From: Sophie Johnson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 9:14 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
Jeff, how does this work: if `Learning and assimilating new information' is
a noun subject in which `and' is a tautologous usage, then we have a
singular noun subject; if `and' is a cumulative usage then we have a plural
subject?
I now think I was not entitled to assume, as I did earlier, that `and' in
this sentence is necessarily a tautologous usage. Such an assumption would
not come as readily in these sort of sentences: `Learning and forgetting new
information is always easier when the information is presented in a familiar
pattern'; `Learning and forgetting new information are [both] easier when
...'.
Might one say that `is' or `are' agreements in these context are the
morphological markers that reveal whether the subject is meant to be plural
or singular?
Sophie
----- Original Message -----
From: Glauner, Jeff <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 2:37 AM
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
Singular is correct. The entire constituent, "Learning and assimilating new
information," is a gerund phrase (a nominal nonfinite verb phrase) serving
as the singular subject of the sentence.
Notice what happens, however, when we delete " . . . new information . . .
." Now we have two separate gerund phrases as compound subjects and the
verb reflects this by changing to "are."
"Learning and assimilating are always easier when the information is
presented in a familiar pattern."
But we have entered a fuzzy area here. It could be argued that "Learning
and assimilating" is still a singular act based upon its meaning in the
original sentence. It is dangerous to allow semantics to rub noses with
syntax. We rediscover that nothing is as simple as it seems.
Jeff Glauner
Associate Professor of English
Park University, Box 1303
8700 River Park Drive
Parkville MO 64152
[log in to unmask]
http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm
<http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm>
-----Original Message-----
From: Carolyn Kinslow [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 8:23 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Help with verbal as subject
We have a disagreement about subject/verb agreement, and I would like the
expert opinions of the members of this list. The sentence generating the
disagreement reads,
"Learning and assimilating new information is always easier when the
information is presented in a familiar pattern."
One camp claims the singular verb, is, is correct; the other camp maintains
that the verb should be plural. How can I explain this construction?
Carolyn
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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=330395719-31072001>Yes.
Call it a nominal subject instead of a noun subject.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=330395719-31072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=330395719-31072001>Sophie,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=330395719-31072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=330395719-31072001>Your
last sentence is a reasonable way of stating it. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=330395719-31072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV><SPAN
class=330395719-31072001>
<DIV align=left><SPAN class=330395719-31072001></SPAN><FONT size=2><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial>"Might one say that `is' or `are' agreements in
these context are the morphological markers that reveal whether the subject is
meant to be plural or singular?<SPAN
class=330395719-31072001>"</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=330395719-31072001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=330395719-31072001>This is one reason that equating grammar with syntax is
not entirely accurate. Grammar also dips into morphology. Of course,
these verbs are more than morphological markers, but they are <EM>that
</EM>along with everything else linking verbs can be. It might be more
accurate, though, to say that they <EM>display</EM> certain morphological
markers in these cases. Whether these markers actually "reveal" the
singular or plural intent is not absolute. Consider, for instance, the
differences between British and American interpretations of singular and plural
with group nouns (e.g., "The crew is . . ." or "The crew are . . .
"). </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=330395719-31072001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=330395719-31072001>Note that your insertion of "[both]" seems to imply
that we are more trusting of semantic signifiers than of morphological
markers. That would make sense considering the limitations of the English
morphological system. </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT
size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=330395719-31072001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=330395719-31072001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jeff Glauner</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Associate Professor of English</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>Park
University, Box 1303</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>8700 River Park
Drive</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>Parkville MO 64152</FONT> <BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2>[log in to unmask]</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><A
href="http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm"
target=_blank>http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm</A></FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Sophie Johnson
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 30, 2001
9:14 PM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Help
with verbal as subject<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jeff, how does this work: if `Learning and
assimilating new information' is a noun subject in which `and' is a
tautologous usage, then we have a singular noun subject; if `and' is a
cumulative usage then we have a plural subject? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I now think I was not entitled to assume, as I
did earlier, that `and' in this sentence is necessarily a tautologous usage.
Such an assumption would not come as readily in these sort of sentences:
`Learning and <U>forgetting</U> new information is always easier when the
information is presented in a familiar pattern'; `Learning and forgetting new
information are [both] easier when ...'.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Might one say that `is' or `are' agreements in
these context are the morphological markers that reveal whether the subject is
meant to be plural or singular?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Sophie </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]"
[log in to unmask]>Glauner, Jeff</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]"
[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, July 31, 2001 2:37
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Help with verbal as
subject</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=600041416-30072001>Singular is correct. The
entire constituent, "Learning and assimilating new information,"
is a gerund phrase (a nominal nonfinite verb phrase) serving as the singular
subject of the sentence. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=600041416-30072001></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial
size=2><SPAN class=600041416-30072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=600041416-30072001>Notice what happens, however, when we delete " . .
. new information . . . ." Now we have two separate gerund phrases as
compound subjects and the verb reflects this by changing
to "are."</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=600041416-30072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=center><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=600041416-30072001>"Learning and assimilating are always easier when
the information is presented in a familiar pattern." </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=center><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=600041416-30072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=600041416-30072001>But we have entered a fuzzy area here. It
could be argued that "Learning and assimilating" is still a singular act
based upon its <EM>meaning </EM>in the original sentence. It is
dangerous to allow semantics to rub noses with syntax. We rediscover
that nothing is as simple as it seems. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=center><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=600041416-30072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jeff Glauner</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Associate Professor of English</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Park University, Box 1303</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>8700
River Park Drive</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>Parkville MO
64152</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>[log in to unmask]</FONT>
<BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><A href="http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm"
target=_blank>http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm</A></FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Carolyn Kinslow
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 30, 2001 8:23
AM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Help with
verbal as subject<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>We have a disagreement about
subject/verb agreement, and I would like the expert opinions of the
members of this list. The sentence generating the disagreement
reads, <BR> <BR> "Learning
and assimilating new information is always easier when the information is
presented in a familiar pattern."
<P>One camp claims the singular verb, <U>is</U>, is correct; the
other camp maintains that the verb should be plural. How can I explain
this construction?
<P>Carolyn <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>
<BR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C119FE.B7D08C10--
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=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 10:10:27 +1000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Sophie Johnson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C11A72.30141160"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Thanks, Jeff. But I'm still thinking of your: `It is dangerous to allow =
semantics to rub noses with syntax'. To my mind, once they've rubbed =
noses they jolly well have to marry!
Sophie=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Glauner, Jeff=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 6:23 AM
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
Yes. Call it a nominal subject instead of a noun subject.
=20
Sophie,
=20
Your last sentence is a reasonable way of stating it. =20
=20
"Might one say that `is' or `are' agreements in these context are the =
morphological markers that reveal whether the subject is meant to be =
plural or singular?"
=20
This is one reason that equating grammar with syntax is not entirely =
accurate. Grammar also dips into morphology. Of course, these verbs =
are more than morphological markers, but they are that along with =
everything else linking verbs can be. It might be more accurate, =
though, to say that they display certain morphological markers in these =
cases. Whether these markers actually "reveal" the singular or plural =
intent is not absolute. Consider, for instance, the differences between =
British and American interpretations of singular and plural with group =
nouns (e.g., "The crew is . . ." or "The crew are . . . "). =20
=20
Note that your insertion of "[both]" seems to imply that we are more =
trusting of semantic signifiers than of morphological markers. That =
would make sense considering the limitations of the English =
morphological system. =20
=20
Jeff Glauner=20
Associate Professor of English=20
Park University, Box 1303=20
8700 River Park Drive=20
Parkville MO 64152=20
[log in to unmask]
http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Sophie Johnson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 9:14 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
Jeff, how does this work: if `Learning and assimilating new =
information' is a noun subject in which `and' is a tautologous usage, =
then we have a singular noun subject; if `and' is a cumulative usage =
then we have a plural subject?=20
=20
I now think I was not entitled to assume, as I did earlier, that =
`and' in this sentence is necessarily a tautologous usage. Such an =
assumption would not come as readily in these sort of sentences: =
`Learning and forgetting new information is always easier when the =
information is presented in a familiar pattern'; `Learning and =
forgetting new information are [both] easier when ...'.
Might one say that `is' or `are' agreements in these context are the =
morphological markers that reveal whether the subject is meant to be =
plural or singular?
Sophie=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Glauner, Jeff=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 2:37 AM
Subject: Re: Help with verbal as subject
Singular is correct. The entire constituent, "Learning and =
assimilating new information," is a gerund phrase (a nominal nonfinite =
verb phrase) serving as the singular subject of the sentence. =20
=20
Notice what happens, however, when we delete " . . . new =
information . . . ." Now we have two separate gerund phrases as =
compound subjects and the verb reflects this by changing to "are."
=20
"Learning and assimilating are always easier when the information =
is presented in a familiar pattern."=20
=20
But we have entered a fuzzy area here. It could be argued that =
"Learning and assimilating" is still a singular act based upon its =
meaning in the original sentence. It is dangerous to allow semantics to =
rub noses with syntax. We rediscover that nothing is as simple as it =
seems. =20
=20
Jeff Glauner=20
Associate Professor of English=20
Park University, Box 1303=20
8700 River Park Drive=20
Parkville MO 64152=20
[log in to unmask]
http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Carolyn Kinslow [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 8:23 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Help with verbal as subject
We have a disagreement about subject/verb agreement, and I would =
like the expert opinions of the members of this list. The sentence =
generating the disagreement reads,=20
=20
"Learning and assimilating new information is always =
easier when the information is presented in a familiar pattern."=20
One camp claims the singular verb, is, is correct; the other =
camp maintains that the verb should be plural. How can I explain this =
construction?=20
Carolyn=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks, Jeff. But I'm still thinking of =
your: `It=20
is dangerous to allow semantics to rub noses with syntax'. To my =
mind,=20
once they've rubbed noses they jolly well have to marry!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Sophie </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
[log in to unmask]>Glauner,=20
Jeff</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 01, =
2001 6:23=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Help with verbal =
as=20
subject</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D330395719-31072001>Yes.=20
Call it a nominal subject instead of a noun =
subject.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D330395719-31072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D330395719-31072001>Sophie,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D330395719-31072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D330395719-31072001>Your=20
last sentence is a reasonable way of stating it. =
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D330395719-31072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV><SPAN=20
class=3D330395719-31072001>
<DIV align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D330395719-31072001></SPAN><FONT =
size=3D2><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial>"Might one say that `is' or `are' =
agreements in=20
these context are the morphological markers that reveal whether the =
subject is=20
meant to be plural or singular?<SPAN=20
class=3D330395719-31072001>"</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D330395719-31072001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D330395719-31072001>This is one reason that equating grammar =
with syntax=20
is not entirely accurate. Grammar also dips into =
morphology. Of=20
course, these verbs are more than morphological markers, but they are =
<EM>that=20
</EM>along with everything else linking verbs can be. It might =
be more=20
accurate, though, to say that they <EM>display</EM> certain =
morphological=20
markers in these cases. Whether these markers actually "reveal" =
the=20
singular or plural intent is not absolute. Consider, for =
instance, the=20
differences between British and American interpretations of singular =
and=20
plural with group nouns (e.g., "The crew is . . ." or "The crew are . =
. .=20
"). </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D330395719-31072001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D330395719-31072001>Note that your insertion of "[both]" seems =
to imply=20
that we are more trusting of semantic signifiers than of morphological =
markers. That would make sense considering the limitations of =
the=20
English morphological system. =
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D330395719-31072001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
face=3DArial><SPAN=20
=
class=3D330395719-31072001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV=
>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jeff Glauner</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Associate Professor of English</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Park=20
University, Box 1303</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>8700 River =
Park=20
Drive</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Parkville MO 64152</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>[log in to unmask]</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm</A></FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Sophie Johnson=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July =
30,=20
2001 9:14 PM<BR><B>To:</B> =
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:=20
Help with verbal as subject<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jeff, how does this work: if =
`Learning and=20
assimilating new information' is a noun subject in which `and' is a=20
tautologous usage, then we have a singular noun subject; if `and' is =
a=20
cumulative usage then we have a plural subject? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I now think I was not entitled to =
assume, as I=20
did earlier, that `and' in this sentence is necessarily a =
tautologous usage.=20
Such an assumption would not come as readily in these sort of =
sentences:=20
`Learning and <U>forgetting</U> new information is always =
easier when=20
the information is presented in a familiar pattern'; `Learning and=20
forgetting new information are [both] easier when ...'.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Might one say that `is' or `are' =
agreements in=20
these context are the morphological markers that reveal whether the =
subject=20
is meant to be plural or singular?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Sophie </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
[log in to unmask]>Glauner, Jeff</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, July 31, =
2001 2:37=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Help with =
verbal as=20
subject</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D600041416-30072001>Singular is correct. The=20
entire constituent, "Learning and assimilating new=20
information," is a gerund phrase (a nominal nonfinite verb =
phrase)=20
serving as the singular subject of the sentence. =20
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D600041416-30072001></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D600041416-30072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D600041416-30072001>Notice what happens, however, when we =
delete " .=20
. . new information . . . ." Now we have two separate gerund =
phrases=20
as compound subjects and the verb reflects this by changing=20
to "are."</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D600041416-30072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D600041416-30072001>"Learning and assimilating are always =
easier when=20
the information is presented in a familiar pattern." =
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D600041416-30072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D600041416-30072001>But we have entered a fuzzy area =
here. It=20
could be argued that "Learning and assimilating" is still a =
singular act=20
based upon its <EM>meaning </EM>in the original sentence. It =
is=20
dangerous to allow semantics to rub noses with syntax. We =
rediscover=20
that nothing is as simple as it seems. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D600041416-30072001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jeff Glauner</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Associate Professor of English</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Park University, Box 1303</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>8700=20
River Park Drive</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Parkville =
MO=20
64152</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>[log in to unmask]</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm</A></FONT> =
</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Carolyn =
Kinslow=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 30, =
2001 8:23=20
AM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
Help with=20
verbal as subject<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>We have a disagreement =
about=20
subject/verb agreement, and I would like the expert opinions of =
the=20
members of this list. The sentence generating the =
disagreement=20
reads, <BR> <BR> =
"Learning and assimilating new information is always easier when =
the=20
information is presented in a familiar pattern."=20
<P>One camp claims the singular verb, <U>is</U>, is =
correct; the=20
other camp maintains that the verb should be plural. How can I =
explain=20
this construction?=20
<P>Carolyn <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> =
<BR> =20
<BR> =20
</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C11A72.30141160--
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