Sophie, I think that some subjunctive is on its way out, some is changing ("I wish I were" is becoming "I wish I was"; people have claimed that this is a lost subjunctive, but it seems to me that using the past form here in something that is clearly not past tense is still a subjunctive), and some is freezing/fossilizing---Like "I move that the meeting be adjourned." Your example will probably freeze too in order to keep the distinction between the two meanings. I admit to being a bit of a fossil myself, so what I recognize cannot be used to identify where the language is going! Edith Wollin -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Johnson [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 6:57 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: "in case" and "lest S should" Edith, the subjunctive is in my head too - and staying there. I cannot accept its demise, for reason alone that such an event would deprive us of a statement-making facility. E.g.: `The Prime Minister insisted that the people are informed' and `The Prime Minister insisted that the people be informed' make obviously different statements. If subjunctive forms really were in pegging-out mode then we should not be unable to recognise the difference. Sophie Johnson [log in to unmask] English Grammar Tutor http://www.englishgrammartutor.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Wollin, Edith <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 1:39 AM Subject: Re: "in case" and "lest S should" > Dick, will you respond to another question on the same sentences?! I was > surprised by the past tense on annoyed; I would have used the infinitive > form--lest they annoy them; lest he annoy them. Likewise, in the second > sentence, I would use ellipsis for the verb, but if called upon to supply > it, it would be be, not is. So is this subjunctive dead or did it never > exist except in my head? If I had my grammar books at work, I would look > this up, but I have taken them all home. > > Edith Wollin > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Veit, UNCW English Department [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 8:43 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: "in case" and "lest S should" > > > Sophie: > > The following is a direct quotation from the Cambridge International > Dictionary of English < > http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=lest*1+0 > <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=lest*1+0> >: > > lest / conjunction / LITERARY > in order to prevent any possibility that (something will happen) > They were afraid to complain about the noise lest they annoyed the people > next door. > Lest you think the film is too violent, I must assure you that it is not. > > That online dictionary didn't show an entry for "in case," but here's one > from Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary < > http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary > <http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=in+case> > &va=in+case>: > > in case > Function: conjunction > Date: 14th century > 1 : IF <in case we are surprised, keep by me -- Washington > Irving> > 2 : as a precaution against the event that <carries a gun in case > he is attacked> > > In other words: > > "X lest Y" means "X so that not Y" > "X in case Y" means "X because maybe Y" > > In still other words: > A "lest" sentence tells what you do so that something bad doesn't happen. > An "in case" sentence tells what you do as a precaution in the event that > something bad actually does happen. > > This being my third posting in 24 hours, I would like to leave any further > discussion on this topic to others. > > Dick Veit > > At 09:04 PM 07/14/2001, Sophie wrote: > > > Dick, how do you come at a distinction in meaning between `lest' and `in > case'? I cannot find any lexicographic ground to support it. Both of these > logical operators hypothesise an event: neither presumes its inevitability > or the circumstance of its prevention. That is precisely why they head > subjunctive-mood sequences. Your paraphrasing: > > D, (lest): Because I want to make sure I don't slip and fall, I will hold > on to the hand rail > > has turned 'lest' into a causal logical operator and thereby diverted the > sense the subjunctive is in place to achieve. > > The semantic template to represent the subjunctive mood of the sentence > under scrutiny is this: > > `I hold on to the rail and [I hypothesise the possibility that] I slip and > fall'. > > It cannot possibly be `I hold on to the rail therefore I will not (or: in > order that I do not) slip and fall. If this were a possibility then the > lest/just in case headers, natural headers of subjunctive-mood sequences, > would simply not be in use. > Sophie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Richard Veit, UNCW English Department <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 12:34 AM > Subject: Re: "in case" and "lest S should" > > > At 12:32 AM 07/14/2001, Sophie Johnson wrote: > > >... Indeed, `lest' and `just in case' are synonymous expressions. So you > > >are right: both C and D correctly fill the gap in the exam sentence. And > > >you are also right in that `lest' is archaic. On that basis, C would have > > >been the better answer. > > > > I must disagree with Sophie. "Lest" and "just in case" are not synonymous. > > "Lest" means "to prevent X from taking place." "Just in case" means "in > the > > event that X should actually take place." Very different. I agree that > both > > C and D could be said, but D seems the more likely answer. Here are > > equivalent statements (not exact paraphrases by any means): > > > > C. (just in case): When I slip and fall, I want to be holding on to the > > hand rail. > > D, (lest): Because I want to make sure I don't slip and fall, I will hold > > on to the hand rail. > > > > Dick Veit > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/