I'm terribly busy at the moment - otherwise I'd be a more active participant in the wonderful discussions over ATEG now, which I've only glimpsed, saving for later - but I just happened to read Rebecca's message & want to say that what she's doing strikes me as the cutting edge of language teaching possible, do-able, critically needed, & appropriate for 21st century English-speaking countries. Quite exciting to imagine this inductive, data-gathering & data-based contrastive analysis approach to language use & structure as the next standard for school reform! Judy Diamondstone At 07:34 AM 8/16/01 -0400, you wrote: >Dear Gretchen (and everyone), >As for alternatives to teaching the traditional 8 parts of speech, etc. >I believe that the future of language arts lies in analysis of language variation >-- by that I mean, the study of how people use different forms of langauge in >different places, times, with different audiences, for different communicative >purposes. > >Thus, while I do teach at a college level, I have my Language and Teaching >students take a tape recorder out, and tape record 2 - 3 minutes of naturally >occuring conversation. Some students tape record teens in conversation, some >record children, some record their families. We get samples of talk fully in >African American Vernacular English, in Southern English, samples of people who >CLAIMED to always and only use "full complete 'proper' English sentences" who were >astonished to find that, as is typically the case, in coverrsation, we follow very >different patterns and structures of UTTERANCE construction. > >So then with that database, the students are stunned to realize that language in >real time is of often fundamentally different structure than language in the >books. > >Then I equip the students with basic grammatical knowledge of sentence structure >(as in Kolln's work, or Morenbergs), and with that tool, they begin a contrastive >analysis, seeking to identify what it is that makes conversation patterns, well, >conversation -- what are the differences of structure? Well, for starters, a >"complete sentence" may be a rarity in conversation while a frequent trait of >book-writing. This then provides the teacher and student understanding of why >students have such a hard time learning to WRITE Standard English -- they are >putting on paper their accustomed conversational patterns, and the syntax of >conversation and the syntax of Standard Edited English are quite different. > >The whole process is inductively driven, with students doing discovery. > >By the way, this is not just for college students. I'm working in the inner city >schools of my local area, seeking to reduce the achievement gap between African >American children and children of the dominant majority. Resources for 3rd graders >are robust -- Thus, see Noma LeMoine's English for Your Success which uses a range >of African American centered children's book to prompt metalinguistic awareness of >language variation and language structure in context. > >So for example, Flossie and The Fox is a children's book in which the Fox speaks >in Standard English, and Flossie and her family, in African American Vernacular >English. The 3rd graders are prompted to contrast what the fox sounds like, with >what Flossie sounds like -- to get detailed, and to make their own language >notebook.... their own grammar book, as it were. > >This kind of approach fosters critical thinking, closeness of analysis, use of the >scientific method (in collecting data, forming hypotheses, testing, revising, >etc), and it's flat out fun for the kids. > >See also the teaching section in The Real Ebonics Debate: Power, Language, and the >Education of African-American Children, Theresa Perry and Lisa Delpit (eds). > >regards, > >Rebecca > >Gretchen Lee wrote: > >> In a message dated 8/15/2001 2:55:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] >> writes:<< It is inthe K-12 (or, perhaps, 5-12) grades that help is needed. >> From what I have seen of various series displayed at NCTE, traditional >> grammar still reigns, with its emphasis on error avoidance and error >> correction. >> >> >> Martha, >> >> You have hit the nail on the head. I would beg of you all to ignore Texas >> and traditional publishers. If necessary, follow Ed Vavra's lead and put up a >> website. But realize those of us in middle school who are reading the >> research and avoiding the drill and kill of the past are risking our jobs to >> stay true to your/our principles. >> >> The perennial problem remains, if not traditional grammar in school, then >> what? What do I say to my parents who tell me that I should be teaching >> traditional parts of speech because it "worked for them"? I have two new >> teachers in my department this year (total dept is three!) who are open to >> new methods. Grammar (and spelling!) are the big issues in any English >> departments. My new teachers are primed to teach grammar and spelling in >> context, but I have no texts to show them how. Everything is aimed at >> college and hs. >> >> This is the plea that I started with last year. What resources do you have >> for me? For my teachers? What should we be doing in 6-8th grade? Nothing >> infuriates me more than hs or college teachers railing about lower level >> teachers not doing their job in teaching grammar when I can't get any help in >> what I should be doing to support you. (Please don't take this personally - >> the teachers on this list serve are our most ardent supporters, but most >> instructors are much less invested in helping us at the lower levels.) >> >> We're willing. But where (outside of Ed's site - I can't get a schoolwide >> buy-in) do I start? Linguistics should be fun. Language is fun. Why can't >> anyone communicate this on a middle school level? >> >> I am torn between those who think that an educated person should be able to >> talk about language and those who say we only need to learn to use it. Is >> there no middle ground? >> >> Help! >> ~Gretchen in San Jose >> [log in to unmask] >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >-- > > >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Rebecca S. Wheeler, Ph.D. >Assistant Professor of Linguistics >Department of English >1 University Place >Christopher Newport University >Newport News, VA 23606-2998 > >Telephone: 757-598-8891 >Fax: 757-594-8870 > >Rebecca S. Wheeler is Editor of Syntax in the Schools, the quarterly journal of >the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar (ATEG), an assembly of the >National Council of Teachers of English (NCTE). www.ateg.org. > >Research Interests: >* dialects and language varieties in the schools, >* reducing the achievement gap between inner city minority children and middle >class children, >* discovery learning of grammar in the classroom > >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/