I wouldn't call using 'him and me' in subject position an error. If a lot of people are doing it, that means it is becoming a part of the language. If it is old, then it is all the more established. English has been revising its case system for hundreds of years and this is no doubt part of it. Instead of calling this an error, I'd say it is very informal English. I certainly hear very educated people do things like this in informal speech, and it sounds quite natural. Kids should know that they need to use 'he and I' in more formal situations and in writing. But calling subjective 'him and me' an error gives kids the impression that they have learned 'bad English'; that they are not competent at English. This isn't true. They may need to add a formal register to their repertoire of types of English, but they are quite competent at whatever language they have learned outside of school. Among the numerous reasons children don't like grammar instruction is the constant message that their natural English is wrong, mistaken. How can a child interpret this, except to understand that they must be stupid, they must have missed learning 'correct English' somehow? And how can it give them confidence that they can learn the correct version? Instead of using grammar instruction to undermine children's security about their use of language, we should use it to make them aware of the great amount of grammar they learned on their own, and to support the idea that they can learn more styles of English so as to function successfully in a wide range of situations. Another reason changing this mindset is so important is that it will help remedy language-based prejudice. If children understand that language varies naturally across situations and social groups, they are less likely to look down on others because they speak a nonstandard variety of English. I choose to harp on this point because of a regrettable incident I witnessed recently. A good friend of mine has a 6-year-old daughter who just finished kindergarten. My friend has taught the girl to use 'whom' correctly. The girl notices that other children don't do this; her mother's explanation for this is that 'some kids don't learn English very well'. This patent falsehood has the potential to set up this little girl to think that she is smarter than other children and that other children somehow have deficient backgrounds. Not a message I'd want my kid to internalize, especially before she has even entered first grade. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics English Department, California Polytechnic State University One Grand Avenue • San Luis Obispo, CA 93407 Tel. (805)-756-2184 • Fax: (805)-756-6374 • Dept. Phone. 756-2596 • E-mail: [log in to unmask] • Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/