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Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 14:31:09 +0200
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Maciek Traczyk <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: COMPACTOS-watch out!!!
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
On 2-9-2001 14:34, "Maria Elena Delgado" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hola como estas ?
>
> Te mando este archivo para que me des tu punto de vista
>
> Nos vemos pronto, gracias.
>
Beware PC-users!
Another virus...
This is getting boring :-/
MACiek
-------------------
[log in to unmask]
Tel +48-608-632-223
-------------------
To those of you who received honours, awards and distinctions, I say well
done. And to the C students, I say you, too, can be president of the United
States.
George W. Bush, US President
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Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 08:25:13 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: SU MENSAJE FUE BLOQUEADO!!!
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
[log in to unmask]
Mensaje BLOQUEADO
Razon: VIRUS!!! en su Mensaje.
Se detecto un posible VIRUS!!! en su Mensaje.
Scanning /var/Scanner/emailscan19620/attachment/*
Scanning file /var/Scanner/emailscan19620/attachment/mm.mv74wP
Scanning file /var/Scanner/emailscan19620/attachment/COMPACTOS.xls.pif
/var/Scanner/emailscan19620/attachment/COMPACTOS.xls.pif
Found the W32/SirCam@MM virus !!!
Scanning file /var/Scanner/emailscan19620/attachment/mm.5kcbAE
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=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 18:19:52 GMT
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "<Caroline Chesebrough>" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Something is haunting me.
Content-Type: text/plain
Mime-Version: 1.0
David,
As a fifth grade teacher I think that it is more that kids see no reason
to learn grammar. Most people they know, and those they hear on tv and in
films, do not use grammatical English so the kids see no reason they should
be expected to learn.
Caroline
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=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 12:06:00 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Nancy Burkhalter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: VIRUS WARNING
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Folks,
This is yet another infected email attachment. My Norton Anti-virus
software gaveme this information:
W32.Sircam.Worm@mm
My software could not clean it so I had to delete it entirely. Please be
careful!
Nancy Burkhalter
********************
Nancy Burkhalter, Ph.D.
POWER IN PRINT
[log in to unmask]
http://www.powerinprint.com
4914 NE 70 St.
Seattle, WA 98115
206.250.8520 (cell)
206.527.4477 (fax)
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=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:54:17 EDT
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Barbara Grimes <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Something is haunting me.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_c0.1a063075.28c42eb9_boundary"
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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I think that I have a unique perspective to offer. Through some strange twist
of fate, I've taught at the elementary, middle and high school levels, and I
am currently teaching at the college level. Regardless of the age group, I've
always had, and continue to have, a great time teaching English. And while I
believe that enthusiasm can be infectious, there are always some students who
make it clear that they are just not interested. And that's fine. Despite
their best efforts not to do so, I believe that they all take away something
that they didn't know before. And truthfully, you don't ever know what impact
you're having on a student until years later, if ever. So I give it my best
shot, and I accentuate the positive whenever possible.
Barb
--part1_c0.1a063075.28c42eb9_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">I think that I have a unique perspective to offer. Through some strange twist
<BR>of fate, I've taught at the elementary, middle and high school levels, and I
<BR>am currently teaching at the college level. Regardless of the age group, I've
<BR>always had, and continue to have, a great time teaching English. And while I
<BR>believe that enthusiasm can be infectious, there are always some students who
<BR>make it clear that they are just not interested. And that's fine. Despite
<BR>their best efforts not to do so, I believe that they all take away something
<BR>that they didn't know before. And truthfully, you don't ever know what impact
<BR>you're having on a student until years later, if ever. So I give it my best
<BR>shot, and I accentuate the positive whenever possible.
<BR>
<BR>Barb</FONT></HTML>
--part1_c0.1a063075.28c42eb9_boundary--
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Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 05:06:01 +0200
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Maciek Traczyk <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Something is haunting me.
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Hi all!
There is one more point I would like to add in the discussion.
Probably for most of your students English is NOT their major. Thus you
shouldn't be surprised some of them are not interested.
On the other hand it's your job to make the lesson enjoyable.
***
Although my English is still very poor, I also _teach_ English. I dare doing
that only because for me the ability to speak a language means the ability
to communicate. In my opinion knowing your own language and any foreign
languages gives you a chance to get to know different peoples from all over
the world. English is particularly useful here.
Bored students is a clear evidence you desperately need some training. Or a
new job.
Have a nice day!
MACiek
------------------
[log in to unmask]
Tel +48608-632-223
------------------
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=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 23:49:22 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Christine Gray <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Maciek
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Maciek, where do you live?
Maciek Traczyk wrote:
>
> Hi all!
> There is one more point I would like to add in the discussion.
> Probably for most of your students English is NOT their major. Thus you
> shouldn't be surprised some of them are not interested.
> On the other hand it's your job to make the lesson enjoyable.
>
> ***
>
> Although my English is still very poor, I also _teach_ English. I dare doing
> that only because for me the ability to speak a language means the ability
> to communicate. In my opinion knowing your own language and any foreign
> languages gives you a chance to get to know different peoples from all over
> the world. English is particularly useful here.
>
> Bored students is a clear evidence you desperately need some training. Or a
> new job.
>
> Have a nice day!
>
> MACiek
>
> ------------------
> [log in to unmask]
> Tel +48608-632-223
> ------------------
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 07:16:24 +0200
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Maciek Traczyk <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Teaching is fun
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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On 3-9-2001 5:49, "Christine Gray" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Maciek, where do you live?
>
Quite difficult to say ;-)
I was born in Poland and spent most of my life there. My father lives in
Germany, though. That is why I was often "on the road", you know.
Last year I spent in Japan (scholarship). At the moment I'm in Poland, but
it won't be long before I go to Japan again. For a couple of years.
Coming back to the subject, I really enjoy teaching. I've been teaching
German, Japanese and English to the Poles, German and English to the
Japanese and Polish to a Bolivian girl. Every single time it was great fun
for me. And for my students, too, I believe. Some of them have been working
with me for years now. My youngest pupil was 12; the oldest 63.
Anyway, why do you ask?
Have a nice day!
MACiek
-------------------
[log in to unmask]
Tel +48-608-632-223
-------------------
To those of you who received honours, awards and distinctions, I say well
done. And to the C students, I say you, too, can be president of the United
States.
George W. Bush, US President
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=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 23:04:39 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Mike Garant <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Something is haunting me.
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1163669115-999497079=:70776"
--0-1163669115-999497079=:70776
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Greetings from Finland!
Agree with Gretchen. When I took mandatory math in college, the first teacher I had was a PhD that nobody could understand. I made an F even though I tried to pass and had good math marks in high school and high math marks on my SAT. I then re-took the same course in night school. The teacher was a high school teacher who was moonlighting and knew how to teach. Same book, same material with a teacher who was a teacher and I made an A.
Teachers should teach at all levels, not just in primary and secondary education as I'm sure most people on the list agree.
Later, Mike
Gretchen Lee <[log in to unmask]> wrote: In a message dated 8/31/2001 4:08:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:<< There is, however, a big difference between
teaching in college and teaching in secondary or elementary school. >>
Paul,
All I can say is amen. This is a very divisive subject at our school.
Several of our teachers teach middle school as if it were college. Lots of
lectures, 3-5 pages of notes a day, three-day tests, rock-firm deadlines,
etc. On the other side several of us have decided to explore the time in
school where learning suddenly stops being fun and see if we can slow that
process. (Remember that I have never taught college, so my comments here are
from personal experience - always suspect!)
Remember elementary school? You probably learned the most intensely there
than you ever learned in your life. You learned to read, to write, to use
numbers - and it was fun. Learning IS fun for most of us.
At what point does it become something that we have to coerce with grades and
implied threats to affect a kid's future? From our absolutely nonscientific
look around at local schools, it seems that middle school is the demarcation
line. In middle school, suddenly the push is on to prepare kids for high
school. High school is a huge push for college. There's suddenly no time
for fun. "Sit down, learn what I present, and get ready for your exit exams"
seems to become the norm. Many teachers are faced with huge pressure for
producing expert test takers and feel they have no choice.
I get very sad when I see teachers say that classes aren't supposed to be
fun. Why not? With a small shift in focus, the material (and
responsibility) can be given to the students in a way that IS fun. Get the
kids interacting, moving, and digging the material out for themselves. Bring
in computers, art, poetry, and music to help you. (In a grammar workshop I
took from Johanna last year, she had a room full of adults on the floor,
using magnetic poetry to illustrate some points she was making about teaching
linguistics - now, that was fun, and we were adults!!)
You don't have to be Vanna White or Steve Martin - in fact is it
counterproductive to have a teacher-centered classroom where the teacher is
the focus of attention, IMHO. It might just come down to whether we are
teaching our specific subject or kids.
I just got back from a conference in Japan, so I am jet lagged. I probably
wasn't as tactful as I should have been, but it is a subject about which I
feel strongly.
~Gretchen in San Jose
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Dr. Mike Garant
English Philology Department Room C 353
University of Tampere
Pyynikintie 2
FIN-33014 University of Tampere
Finland Cell phone 050 357 5583 Office 03 215 6134
Associate Editor of AEQ: http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/
---------------------------------
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--0-1163669115-999497079=:70776
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<P>Greetings from Finland!
<P>Agree with Gretchen. When I took mandatory math in college, the first teacher I had was a PhD that nobody could understand. I made an F even though I tried to pass and had good math marks in high school and high math marks on my SAT. I then re-took the same course in night school. The teacher was a high school teacher who was moonlighting and knew how to teach. Same book, same material with a teacher who was a teacher and I made an A.
<P>Teachers should teach at all levels, not just in primary and secondary education as I'm sure most people on the list agree.
<P>Later, Mike
<P> <B><I>Gretchen Lee <[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">In a message dated 8/31/2001 4:08:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,<BR>[log in to unmask] writes:<< There is, however, a big difference between<BR>teaching in college and teaching in secondary or elementary school. >><BR><BR>Paul,<BR><BR>All I can say is amen. This is a very divisive subject at our school.<BR>Several of our teachers teach middle school as if it were college. Lots of<BR>lectures, 3-5 pages of notes a day, three-day tests, rock-firm deadlines,<BR>etc. On the other side several of us have decided to explore the time in<BR>school where learning suddenly stops being fun and see if we can slow that<BR>process. (Remember that I have never taught college, so my comments here are<BR>from personal experience - always suspect!)<BR><BR>Remember elementary school? You probably learned the most intensely there<BR>than you ever learned in your life. You learned to read, to write, to use<BR>numbers - and it was fun. Learning IS fun for most of us.<BR><BR>At what point does it become something that we have to coerce with grades and<BR>implied threats to affect a kid's future? From our absolutely nonscientific<BR>look around at local schools, it seems that middle school is the demarcation<BR>line. In middle school, suddenly the push is on to prepare kids for high<BR>school. High school is a huge push for college. There's suddenly no time<BR>for fun. "Sit down, learn what I present, and get ready for your exit exams"<BR>seems to become the norm. Many teachers are faced with huge pressure for<BR>producing expert test takers and feel they have no choice.<BR><BR>I get very sad when I see teachers say that classes aren't supposed to be<BR>fun. Why not? With a small shift in focus, the material (and<BR>responsibility) can be given to the students in a way that IS fun. Get the<BR>kids interacting, moving, and digging the material out for themselves. Bring<BR>in computers, art, poetry, and music to help you. (In a grammar workshop I<BR>took from Johanna last year, she had a room full of adults on the floor,<BR>using magnetic poetry to illustrate some points she was making about teaching<BR>linguistics - now, that was fun, and we were adults!!)<BR><BR>You don't have to be Vanna White or Steve Martin - in fact is it<BR>counterproductive to have a teacher-centered classroom where the teacher is<BR>the focus of attention, IMHO. It might just come down to whether we are<BR>teaching our specific subject or kids.<BR><BR>I just got back from a conference in Japan, so I am jet lagged. I probably<BR>wasn't as tactful as I should have been, but it is a subject about which I<BR>feel strongly.<BR><BR>~Gretchen in San Jose<BR>[log in to unmask]<BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<BR>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><P align=center>Dr. Mike Garant<BR>English Philology Department Room C 353</P>
<P align=center>University of Tampere<BR>Pyynikintie 2<BR>FIN-33014 University of Tampere</P>
<P align=center>Finland Cell phone 050 357 5583 Office 03 215 6134<BR>Associate Editor of AEQ: <A href="http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/">http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/</A></P><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br>
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 08:50:24 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Rebecca S. Wheeler" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Department of English, Christopher Newport University
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 1 Sep 2001 to 2 Sep 2001 (#2001-162)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="------------4E0D4C0EB77A7C95F4EF7DD9"
--------------4E0D4C0EB77A7C95F4EF7DD9
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Dear Caroline,
What do you mean by use "grammatical English"?
That is what kinds of things are they saying and hearing that you
diagnose as not using grammatical English?
regards,
rebecca
Automatic digest processor wrote:
>
>
> Subject: Re: Something is haunting me.
> Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 18:19:52 GMT
> From: "<Caroline Chesebrough>" <[log in to unmask]>
>
> David,
> As a fifth grade teacher I think that it is more that kids see no reason
> to learn grammar. Most people they know, and those they hear on tv and in
> films, do not use grammatical English so the kids see no reason they should
> be expected to learn.
>
> Caroline
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Rebecca S. Wheeler, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Linguistics
Department of English
1 University Place
Christopher Newport University
Newport News, VA 23606-2998
Telephone: 757-598-8891
Fax: 757-594-8870
Rebecca S. Wheeler is Editor of Syntax in the Schools, the quarterly
journal of the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar (ATEG), an
assembly of the National Council of Teachers of English (NCTE).
www.ateg.org.
Research Interests:
* dialects and language varieties in the schools,
* reducing the achievement gap between inner city minority children and
middle class children,
* discovery learning of grammar in the classroom
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
--------------4E0D4C0EB77A7C95F4EF7DD9
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Dear Caroline,
<br>What do you mean by use "grammatical English"?
<br>That is what kinds of things are they saying and hearing that you diagnose
as not using grammatical English?
<p>regards,
<p>rebecca
<p>Automatic digest processor wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<p><nobr><b>Subject: </b>Re: Something is haunting me.</nobr>
<br><nobr><b>Date: </b>Sun, 2 Sep 2001 18:19:52 GMT</nobr>
<br><nobr><b>From: </b>"<Caroline Chesebrough>" <[log in to unmask]></nobr>
<pre> David,
As a fifth grade teacher I think that it is more that kids see no reason
to learn grammar. Most people they know, and those they hear on tv and in
films, do not use grammatical English so the kids see no reason they should
be expected to learn.
Caroline</pre>
<hr WIDTH="90%" SIZE=4></blockquote>
<p><br>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<p>Rebecca S. Wheeler, Ph.D.
<br>Assistant Professor of Linguistics
<br>Department of English
<br>1 University Place
<br>Christopher Newport University
<br>Newport News, VA 23606-2998
<p>Telephone: 757-598-8891
<br>Fax:
757-594-8870
<p>Rebecca S. Wheeler is Editor of Syntax in the Schools, the quarterly
journal of the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar (ATEG), an
assembly of the National Council of Teachers of English (NCTE). www.ateg.org.
<p>Research Interests:
<br>* dialects and language varieties in the schools,
<br>* reducing the achievement gap between inner city minority children
and middle class children,
<br>* discovery learning of grammar in the classroom
<p>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<br> </html>
--------------4E0D4C0EB77A7C95F4EF7DD9--
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=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:53:08 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Nancy Patterson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: WARNING! Code Red Worm
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sorry, I'm getting to this late, but here's how things are handled on other
lists I belong to. None of NCTE's lists allow messages with attachments to
go through. I set up a list serv for the teachers in my building and I set
things so that no attachments would make it to the list also.
Attachments can be a problem for a couple reasons. One, they are an
excellent way to catch a virus. Ordinary e-mail cannot carry a virus; only
files like attachments can do that. I've made it my own policy not to open
anything that has an attachment unless I'm expecting something specific.
Another reason attachments are a problem is that they often take longer to
download and some people with slower connections have difficulties with
them. Still others simply can't read them at all because of the way their
machines are confingured or because of the software they have on their
computers.
Nancy
Nancy G. Patterson
Portland Middle School, English Dept. Chair
Portland, MI 48875
"To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone can
learn."
--bell hooks
[log in to unmask]
<http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm>
<http://www.npatterson.net/mid>
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:52:44 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Suzanne S Webb <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: WARNING! Code Red Worm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
This is an important posting, Nancy. Thank you. I recently was "stuck"
downloading with a slow (19K) connection a 1MB file that was a picture I
didn't want. It took 45 minutes. There was no way to skip that file,
apparently.
Sue Webb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nancy Patterson" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: WARNING! Code Red Worm
> Sorry, I'm getting to this late, but here's how things are handled on
other
> lists I belong to. None of NCTE's lists allow messages with attachments
to
> go through. I set up a list serv for the teachers in my building and I
set
> things so that no attachments would make it to the list also.
>
> Attachments can be a problem for a couple reasons. One, they are an
> excellent way to catch a virus. Ordinary e-mail cannot carry a virus;
only
> files like attachments can do that. I've made it my own policy not to
open
> anything that has an attachment unless I'm expecting something specific.
> Another reason attachments are a problem is that they often take longer to
> download and some people with slower connections have difficulties with
> them. Still others simply can't read them at all because of the way their
> machines are confingured or because of the software they have on their
> computers.
>
> Nancy
> Nancy G. Patterson
> Portland Middle School, English Dept. Chair
> Portland, MI 48875
>
> "To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone
can
> learn."
>
> --bell hooks
>
> [log in to unmask]
> <http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm>
> <http://www.npatterson.net/mid>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 08:54:34 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "James M. Dubinsky" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: WARNING! Code Red Worm
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: MULTIPART/ALTERNATIVE;
BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_eTevXqQVsyiB2IpU3mltpw)"
--Boundary_(ID_eTevXqQVsyiB2IpU3mltpw)
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
Hello ATEG list members,
Nancy's note and the recent bombardment of email with "nasty" attachments
confirmed for me that we needed to make a move to protect list members from
rogue e-mail. As a result, we've set the listserv to reject all messages
with attachments.
Best wishes,
Jim
>Attachments can be a problem for a couple reasons. One, they are an
>excellent way to catch a virus. Ordinary e-mail cannot carry a virus; only
>files like attachments can do that. I've made it my own policy not to open
>anything that has an attachment unless I'm expecting something specific.
>Another reason attachments are a problem is that they often take longer to
>download and some people with slower connections have difficulties with
>them. Still others simply can't read them at all because of the way their
>machines are confingured or because of the software they have on their
>computers.
>
>Nancy
>Nancy G. Patterson
>Portland Middle School, English Dept. Chair
>Portland, MI 48875
>
>"To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone can
>learn."
>
>--bell hooks
>
> [log in to unmask]
><http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm>
><http://www.npatterson.net/mid>
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
James M. Dubinsky, Ph.D.
Director of Professional Writing
Department of English
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg, VA 24061-0112
540.231.7909 / http://athena.english.vt.edu/~dubinsky/
--Boundary_(ID_eTevXqQVsyiB2IpU3mltpw)
Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<html>
<font size=3>Hello ATEG list members,<br>
<br>
Nancy's note and the recent bombardment of email with "nasty"
attachments confirmed for me that we needed to make a move to protect
list members from rogue e-mail. As a result, we've set the listserv
to reject all messages with attachments. <br>
<br>
Best wishes, <br>
<br>
Jim<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Attachments can be a problem for a
couple reasons. One, they are an<br>
excellent way to catch a virus. Ordinary e-mail cannot carry a
virus; only<br>
files like attachments can do that. I've made it my own policy not
to open<br>
anything that has an attachment unless I'm expecting something
specific.<br>
Another reason attachments are a problem is that they often take longer
to<br>
download and some people with slower connections have difficulties
with<br>
them. Still others simply can't read them at all because of the way
their<br>
machines are confingured or because of the software they have on
their<br>
computers.<br>
<br>
Nancy<br>
Nancy G. Patterson<br>
Portland Middle School, English Dept. Chair<br>
Portland, MI 48875<br>
<br>
"To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that
anyone can<br>
learn."<br>
<br>
--bell hooks<br>
<br>
[log in to unmask]<br>
<<a href="http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm" eudora="autourl">http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm</a>><br>
<<a href="http://www.npatterson.net/mid" eudora="autourl">http://www.npatterson.net/mid</a>><br>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
<br>
Visit ATEG's web site at
<a href="http://ateg.org/" eudora="autourl">http://ateg.org/</a>
</blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
James M. Dubinsky, Ph.D.<br>
Director of Professional Writing<br>
Department of English<br>
Virginia Tech<br>
Blacksburg, VA 24061-0112<br>
540.231.7909 / <a href="http://athena.english.vt.edu/~dubinsky/" eudora="autourl">http</a>://athena.english.vt.edu<a href="http://athena.english.vt.edu/~dubinsky/" eudora="autourl">/~dubinsky/</a><br>
</font></html>
--Boundary_(ID_eTevXqQVsyiB2IpU3mltpw)--
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:15:57 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: margi mcinerney <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: WARNING! Code Red Worm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I would like to be removed from the list----unsubscribed----
Omar wrote:
> >>My computer says the attachments from this recent posting from "anhvu" on
> >>the listserve are infected. DO NOT OPEN!!!
> >>
> >>
> >>From: anhvu <[log in to unmask]>
>
> This was immediately suspicious. A one-hundred kilobyte message?
>
> I hope that list members will refrain from posting attachments to this
> list. And also from posting in HTML fomat. Sending attachments to a
> list is generally a bad idea and virus infections may be spread by
> code imbedded in HTML messages that calls the virus when the message
> is opened from a machine that is still online. Anything that
> absolutely needs to be distributed can be posted on the web and the
> URL announced on the list. The defunct e-groups issued all of their
> electronic forums with a "vault" expressly for file distribution.
>
> CODE RED WORM
>
> If you who may be running WinNT or Win2000 operating systems and have
> not expressly taken precautions to protect yourself you are exposed to
> attack. The worm is a parasite that enables those who distribute it to
> control infected machines remotely via the Windows IIS Personal Web
> Server. Estimates are that some 100,000 personal computers around the
> world are now Code Red zombies. Most people operating infected
> machines are unaware of the presence of a virus that has turned their
> machines collectively into a powerful weapon in the hands of persons
> unknown.
>
> The worm enters your computer while you are online by probing your
> ports and entering, typically, through port 80, if it finds it open. A
> friend of mine who is online most of the time intercepts 5 to 10 of
> these worms a day. The first massive attack on July 1st infected more
> than 300,000 machines world wide in the space of twelve hours. A
> second wave occurred on August 1st, a third is expected on Saturday,
> September 1st.
>
> Please investigate this yourselves. Check to see whether or not you
> are running Microsoft Personal Web server - some implementations of
> Windows install this as default. If you are, then assume that you are
> infected. Check the Microsoft web site and take steps to remove the
> worm and then either shut down IIS or download and install the MS
> patch to protect yourself from the worm if you continue to use IIS.
> The patch is not effective if your machine is already infected.
>
> The worm does not appear to be designed to damage your system or your
> hardware, but rather to use your equipment for purposes that are
> impossible to ascertain.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Omar
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 07:33:11 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ben Varner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Interesting Article
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Colleagues--
One of our graduate students, Karen Heise, has written an interesting
article which has been published in _Academic Exchange Extra_, a
student-run online publication.
The title of the article is "Freshman (De)Composition: The Results of
Grammar's Slow Death in the College Classroom." This is Karen's
first academic publication. She would be very pleased to have any
comments. Her e-mail address is at the top of her article.
http://www.newcastle.edu.au/architecture/arc/AE-Extra/2001/8/index.html
If you have any students who would like to contribute an article to AE Extra,
please ask them to send it to Phil Brocato, the Chief Editor, at [log in to unmask]
Ben Varner
University of Northern Colorado
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:16:32 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Comments: RFC822 error: <W> Invalid RFC822 field - "PLEASE pass along the
ad below to anyone you know who might be interested &
qualified.". Rest of header flushed.
From: Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Instructor position
The position
is especially appropriate for people who have an MA emphasis in
rhet/comp, but last year I found that some ABD and PhD's with
a r/c emphasis were interested in a similar position with
us.
I'll be glad to answer specific questions offlist, but I
want to mention that this position does involve a good benefits
package & does NOT have a limit on the number of years the
person can stay with us.
FYI, we're located on the Gulf of
Mexico with lots of warm weather, rivers, and trees with New
Orleans & Pensacola only a short drive away. We currently have
5 faculty with an emphasis in rhet/comp out of a total of about
20 faculty in the dept.
many thanks,
larry
beason
Instructor: One full-time position
(first-year composition & occasional literature survey). 4/4
load; opportunities for summer teaching. Starting date: August
2002.
Required: MA in English or Rhetoric/Composition, but
must have graduate-level emphasis in composition. Experience
or coursework in communication technology or in assessment.
Desirable: Experience with WAC or TESOL.
Screening
begins Nov. 10, 2001, and continues until position is filled.
Send vita, letter, and unofficial transcript of graduate degree
to Larry Beason, Dept. of English, 240 Humanities, University
of South Alabama, Mobile AL 36688. Inquiries: 251-460-7861 or
[log in to unmask] AA/EEO/M/F/D
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline
Dear Colleagues:
PLEASE pass along the ad below to anyone you know who might be interested =
& qualified. I know this list isn't necessarily the normal place to run =
the ad, but I want to get the word out. While we do not emphasize grammar =
in our comp courses, my hope is to find teachers who are not ashamed of =
teaching some grammar & usage :-)
The position is especially appropriate for people who have an MA emphasis =
in rhet/comp, but last year I found that some ABD and PhD's with a r/c =
emphasis were interested in a similar position with us.
I'll be glad to answer specific questions offlist, but I want to mention =
that this position does involve a good benefits package & does NOT have a =
limit on the number of years the person can stay with us. =20
FYI, we're located on the Gulf of Mexico with lots of warm weather, =
rivers, and trees with New Orleans & Pensacola only a short drive away. =
We currently have 5 faculty with an emphasis in rhet/comp out of a total =
of about 20 faculty in the dept.
=20
many thanks,
larry beason
Instructor: One full-time position (first-year composition & occasional =
literature survey). 4/4 load; opportunities for summer teaching. =
Starting date: August 2002.
Required: MA in English or Rhetoric/Composition, but must have graduate-lev=
el emphasis in composition. Experience or coursework in communication =
technology or in assessment. =20
Desirable: Experience with WAC or TESOL.
Screening begins Nov. 10, 2001, and continues until position is filled. =
Send vita, letter, and unofficial transcript of graduate degree to Larry =
Beason, Dept. of English, 240 Humanities, University of South Alabama, =
Mobile AL 36688. Inquiries: 251-460-7861 or [log in to unmask] =
AA/EEO/M/F/D=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:21:56 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: 2nd try, instructor position
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It seems my email did not make it through quite right. Let me try again.
Dear Colleagues:
PLEASE pass along the ad below to anyone you know who might be interested =
& qualified. I know this list isn't necessarily the normal place to run =
the ad, but I want to get the word out. While we do not emphasize grammar =
in our comp courses, my hope is to find teachers who are not ashamed of =
teaching some grammar & usage :-)
The position is especially appropriate for people who have an MA emphasis =
in rhet/comp, but last year I found that some ABD and PhD's with a r/c =
emphasis were interested in a similar position with us.
I'll be glad to answer specific questions offlist, but I want to mention =
that this position does involve a good benefits package & does NOT have a =
limit on the number of years the person can stay with us. =20
FYI, we're located on the Gulf of Mexico with lots of warm weather, =
rivers, and trees with New Orleans & Pensacola only a short drive away. =
We currently have 5 faculty with an emphasis in rhet/comp out of a total =
of about 20 faculty in the dept.
=20
many thanks,
larry beason
Instructor: One full-time position (first-year composition & occasional =
literature survey). 4/4 load; opportunities for summer teaching. =
Starting date: August 2002.
Required: MA in English or Rhetoric/Composition, but must have graduate-lev=
el emphasis in composition. Experience or coursework in communication =
technology or in assessment. =20
Desirable: Experience with WAC or TESOL.
Screening begins Nov. 10, 2001, and continues until position is filled. =
Send vita, letter, and unofficial transcript of graduate degree to Larry =
Beason, Dept. of English, 240 Humanities, University of South Alabama, =
Mobile AL 36688. Inquiries: 251-460-7861 or [log in to unmask] =
AA/EEO/M/F/D=20
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:16:08 +1000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: john kinny-lewis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Content suggestions for Millionaire game
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
The Millionaire games and puzzles have been in operation for over 6 weeks.
Currently Math and English games are the most popular.
We intend to increase the number of games in these categories and would
appreciate feedback.
If you haven't as yet seen the games the address is:
http://www.webclass.asn.au
Regards,
John and Liz
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:48:26 +0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: zhangyong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Is it a kind of ritual?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="big5"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
-----ì©l¶l¥ó-----
±H¥óªÌ: shun Tang <[log in to unmask]>
¦¬¥óªÌ: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
¤é´Á: 2001¦~5¤ë15¤é AM 12:10
¥D¦®: Is it a kind of ritual?
>Is it a negligence or an intended avoidance?
>
>I am not talking of MANY. I am talking of ALL.
>
>In talking about English tenses, ALL grammar books are avoiding to talk
>about the family of the frequently-used adverbial IN THE PAST XX YEARS
(such
>as in the past, in the past year, in the past ten months, during the past
>two decades, over the past three weeks, for the past few years, etc.)
>
>Is it a negligence or an intended avoidance? Or is it a kind of ritual?
>
>Your opinion is welcome.
>
>Shun
>englishtense.com
>
>=========
>Please post your message to the following address:
>http://www.englishtense.com/forum.asp
>under the subject question: "Is it a kind of ritual?"
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:11:23 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Mike Garant <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Is it a kind of ritual?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2082214868-1000368683=:22293"
--0-2082214868-1000368683=:22293
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi!
Swan, M. 1998. Practical English Usage. OUP: Oxford, p. 154 classifies such constructions as 'Discourse Markers: structuring. He uses the example, 'In the first, second, third place.' I think that it is the same as 'in the past X years'. Swan says thaey are 'used to show the structure of what we are saying.'
All the Best,
Mike
zhangyong <[log in to unmask]> wrote: -----­ì©l¶l¥ó-----
±H¥óªÌ: shun Tang
¦¬¥óªÌ: [log in to unmask]
¤é´Á: 2001¦~5¤ë15¤é AM 12:10
¥D¦®: Is it a kind of ritual?
>Is it a negligence or an intended avoidance?
>
>I am not talking of MANY. I am talking of ALL.
>
>In talking about English tenses, ALL grammar books are avoiding to talk
>about the family of the frequently-used adverbial IN THE PAST XX YEARS
(such
>as in the past, in the past year, in the past ten months, during the past
>two decades, over the past three weeks, for the past few years, etc.)
>
>Is it a negligence or an intended avoidance? Or is it a kind of ritual?
>
>Your opinion is welcome.
>
>Shun
>englishtense.com
>
>=========
>Please post your message to the following address:
>http://www.englishtense.com/forum.asp
>under the subject question: "Is it a kind of ritual?"
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Dr. Mike Garant
English Philology Department Room C 353
University of Tampere
Pyynikintie 2
FIN-33014 University of Tampere
Finland Cell phone 050 357 5583 Office 03 215 6134
Associate Editor of AEQ: http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/
---------------------------------
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information inYahoo! News.
--0-2082214868-1000368683=:22293
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<P> Hi!
<P>Swan, M. 1998. Practical English Usage. OUP: Oxford, p. 154 classifies such constructions as 'Discourse Markers: structuring. He uses the example, 'In the first, second, third place.' I think that it is the same as 'in the past X years'. Swan says thaey are 'used to show the structure of what we are saying.'
<P>All the Best,
<P>Mike
<P> <B><I>zhangyong <[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">-----­ì©l¶l¥ó-----<BR>±H¥óªÌ: shun Tang <[log in to unmask]><BR>¦¬¥óªÌ: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]><BR>¤é´Á: 2001¦~5¤ë15¤é AM 12:10<BR>¥D¦®: Is it a kind of ritual?<BR><BR><BR>>Is it a negligence or an intended avoidance?<BR>><BR>>I am not talking of MANY. I am talking of ALL.<BR>><BR>>In talking about English tenses, ALL grammar books are avoiding to talk<BR>>about the family of the frequently-used adverbial IN THE PAST XX YEARS<BR>(such<BR>>as in the past, in the past year, in the past ten months, during the past<BR>>two decades, over the past three weeks, for the past few years, etc.)<BR>><BR>>Is it a negligence or an intended avoidance? Or is it a kind of ritual?<BR>><BR>>Your opinion is welcome.<BR>><BR>>Shun<BR>>englishtense.com<BR>><BR>>=========<BR>>Please post your message to the following address:<BR>>http://www.englishtense.com/forum.asp<BR>>under the subject question: "Is it a kind of ritual?"<BR>><BR>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface<BR>at:<BR>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR>><BR>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<BR>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><P align=center>Dr. Mike Garant<BR>English Philology Department Room C 353</P>
<P align=center>University of Tampere<BR>Pyynikintie 2<BR>FIN-33014 University of Tampere</P>
<P align=center>Finland Cell phone 050 357 5583 Office 03 215 6134<BR>Associate Editor of AEQ: <A href="http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/">http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/</A></P><p><br><hr size=1><b>Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
</b><br>Donate cash, emergency relief information in
<a
href="http://rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/tag/?http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/">Yahoo! News</a>.
--0-2082214868-1000368683=:22293--
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:34:33 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: is it a ritual
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="------------A9B01D4DD3C1EA06DA721E84"
--------------A9B01D4DD3C1EA06DA721E84
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Since the inquiry is about tense, it should be pointed out that the
construction is generally followed by present perfect. (In the past
four years, we have built twelve homes.) As such, it conveys past
action that is continuing into the present. (Or a time period that is
not over.) It often comes in sentence opening position, what functional
grammar calls MARKED THEME. (Not the grammatical subject, but a
stepping off point for the message structure of the statement.) I hope
that helps.
Craig Hancock, University at Albany
--------------A9B01D4DD3C1EA06DA721E84
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Since the inquiry is about tense, it should be
pointed out that the construction is generally followed by present perfect.
(<i>In the past four years, we have built twelve homes.)</i>
As such, it conveys past action that is continuing into the present.
(Or a time period that is not over.) It often comes in sentence opening
position, what functional grammar calls MARKED THEME. (Not the grammatical
subject, but a stepping off point for the message structure of the statement.)
I hope that helps.
<p> Craig Hancock, University at Albany</html>
--------------A9B01D4DD3C1EA06DA721E84--
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Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:52:03 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Our nation's tragedey
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear friends:
I just received this email from a cousin in Norway:
"It's with grief and shock we got the news about the cruel and cowardly
attack on your country and all those innocent people. We can hardly find
words to express how sad we're feeling, but our sympathy is with you and
also with all those unknown people who have been killed, maimed or have
lost their loved ones.
The whole thing is so unreal that you almost have to check that you are
awake. Beside the human tragedy, this is also a threat to all democratic
nations in the free world including our country, so even if we are far away
in distance it does also feel very close. One good thing, if one can say
that in a situation like this, is that the world's major nations seem to
have become more united and determined to fight these evel elements
together."
I wanted to share it with you because I'm sure it represents the feelings
of average citizens all over Europe. Cousin Helge has been here in America
several times; he has a special feeling for New York because he
participated in the NY Marathon three years ago.
At times like this, of ocurse, grammar issues that we would normally debate
have taken a secondary place in our lives.
Warmest regards to you all.
Martha
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Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:10:28 +0200
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Patricia Reeve-De Becker <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Frieden
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Wenn Sie das Bedürfnis haben, eine Kleinigkeit für den Frieden zu tun,
dann unterzeichnen Sie doch eine der Petitionen, die Mr. Busch
dazu auffordern, besonnen zu handeln.
auf Englisch
http://www.thePetitionSite.com/takeaction/224622495
oder auch Deitsch
http://www.findefux.de/petition/german
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Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:01:25 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Reinhold Schlieper <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Embry-Riddle University
Subject: Re: Frieden
MIME-Version: 1.0
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This is worthwhile. Translation:
If you feel the need to do something for peace, then do sign one of the
petitions which ask Mr. Bush to act with deliberate and thoughtful
care. The petition is in English.
And, yes, I signed.
==Reinhold Schlieper
Patricia Reeve-De Becker wrote:
>
> Wenn Sie das Bedürfnis haben, eine Kleinigkeit für den Frieden zu tun,
> dann unterzeichnen Sie doch eine der Petitionen, die Mr. Busch
> dazu auffordern, besonnen zu handeln.
> auf Englisch
>
> http://www.thePetitionSite.com/takeaction/224622495
>
> oder auch Deitsch
>
> http://www.findefux.de/petition/german
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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>
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Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:34:45 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Cheryl Richey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedey
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
This is very nice to hear feelings of sympathy. However, feelings are not
as helpful as actions. I would like to see other countries come to help us
unbury our people. We are in a time of crisis. We spend billions of dollars
to come to the need of other countries. We help clean up after war; we help
when earthquakes hit, we help discourage countries. Now it is our turn to
need help.
----- Original Message -----
From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 4:52 PM
Subject: Our nation's tragedey
> Dear friends:
>
> I just received this email from a cousin in Norway:
>
> "It's with grief and shock we got the news about the cruel and cowardly
> attack on your country and all those innocent people. We can hardly find
> words to express how sad we're feeling, but our sympathy is with you and
> also with all those unknown people who have been killed, maimed or have
> lost their loved ones.
> The whole thing is so unreal that you almost have to check that you are
> awake. Beside the human tragedy, this is also a threat to all democratic
> nations in the free world including our country, so even if we are far
away
> in distance it does also feel very close. One good thing, if one can say
> that in a situation like this, is that the world's major nations seem to
> have become more united and determined to fight these evel elements
> together."
>
>
>
> I wanted to share it with you because I'm sure it represents the
feelings
> of average citizens all over Europe. Cousin Helge has been here in
America
> several times; he has a special feeling for New York because he
> participated in the NY Marathon three years ago.
>
> At times like this, of ocurse, grammar issues that we would normally
debate
> have taken a secondary place in our lives.
>
> Warmest regards to you all.
>
> Martha
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:53:55 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedey
In-Reply-To: <001b01c13d32$c9209760$1e9dfea9@8wk2i>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Agreed . . .
> From: Cheryl Richey <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:34:45 -0700
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedey
>
> This is very nice to hear feelings of sympathy. However, feelings are not
> as helpful as actions. I would like to see other countries come to help us
> unbury our people. We are in a time of crisis. We spend billions of dollars
> to come to the need of other countries. We help clean up after war; we help
> when earthquakes hit, we help discourage countries. Now it is our turn to
> need help.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 4:52 PM
> Subject: Our nation's tragedey
>
>
>> Dear friends:
>>
>> I just received this email from a cousin in Norway:
>>
>> "It's with grief and shock we got the news about the cruel and cowardly
>> attack on your country and all those innocent people. We can hardly find
>> words to express how sad we're feeling, but our sympathy is with you and
>> also with all those unknown people who have been killed, maimed or have
>> lost their loved ones.
>> The whole thing is so unreal that you almost have to check that you are
>> awake. Beside the human tragedy, this is also a threat to all democratic
>> nations in the free world including our country, so even if we are far
> away
>> in distance it does also feel very close. One good thing, if one can say
>> that in a situation like this, is that the world's major nations seem to
>> have become more united and determined to fight these evel elements
>> together."
>>
>>
>>
>> I wanted to share it with you because I'm sure it represents the
> feelings
>> of average citizens all over Europe. Cousin Helge has been here in
> America
>> several times; he has a special feeling for New York because he
>> participated in the NY Marathon three years ago.
>>
>> At times like this, of ocurse, grammar issues that we would normally
> debate
>> have taken a secondary place in our lives.
>>
>> Warmest regards to you all.
>>
>> Martha
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
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>
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:16:18 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Maureen Fitzpatrick <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedey
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
I guess my first response is that you don't give help or charity so other
countries will "owe" you; you give it because you have it and someone else
needs it.
And, in this case, I'm not really sure we need rescue or economic help from
other countries. The people coordinating the rescue efforts seem to have
more volunteers than they can use because teams from all over the US wish to
help. What we will be needing from other nations is help in other ways; when
we get enough information about who is responsible and where they are, we
will probably be calling on many nations to put their sympathies and ideals
above their own best economic interests and potentially even their own
safety-that could cost many of them a lot.
Maureen Fitzpatrick
Associate Professor, English
Johnson County Community College
-----Original Message-----
From: Cheryl Richey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 10:35 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedey
This is very nice to hear feelings of sympathy. However, feelings are not
as helpful as actions. I would like to see other countries come to help us
unbury our people. We are in a time of crisis. We spend billions of dollars
to come to the need of other countries. We help clean up after war; we help
when earthquakes hit, we help discourage countries. Now it is our turn to
need help.
----- Original Message -----
From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 4:52 PM
Subject: Our nation's tragedey
> Dear friends:
>
> I just received this email from a cousin in Norway:
>
> "It's with grief and shock we got the news about the cruel and cowardly
> attack on your country and all those innocent people. We can hardly find
> words to express how sad we're feeling, but our sympathy is with you and
> also with all those unknown people who have been killed, maimed or have
> lost their loved ones.
> The whole thing is so unreal that you almost have to check that you are
> awake. Beside the human tragedy, this is also a threat to all democratic
> nations in the free world including our country, so even if we are far
away
> in distance it does also feel very close. One good thing, if one can say
> that in a situation like this, is that the world's major nations seem to
> have become more united and determined to fight these evel elements
> together."
>
>
>
> I wanted to share it with you because I'm sure it represents the
feelings
> of average citizens all over Europe. Cousin Helge has been here in
America
> several times; he has a special feeling for New York because he
> participated in the NY Marathon three years ago.
>
> At times like this, of ocurse, grammar issues that we would normally
debate
> have taken a secondary place in our lives.
>
> Warmest regards to you all.
>
> Martha
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:30:04 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Grant MacEwan College
Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedy
In-Reply-To: <001b01c13d32$c9209760$1e9dfea9@8wk2i>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Today I am wearing a black shirt and a tie with Statue of Liberty
emblems on it.
I am ashamed of the Canadian Prime Minister's comparatively tepid
statements of solidarity with the United States. I wish that he had
committed us as firmly as the leaders of Britain and Germany did
in their statements.
I am also ashamed that our Prime Minister spent last winter
scoffing and laughing off the calls from our Opposition party to take
terror links in Canada more seriously.
There is a letter to the editor in the National Post which reads in
part "In my 32 years as a professor at Simon Fraser University, I
repeatedly heard negative comments about the U.S. from my
colleagues -- both Marxist and pseudoMarxist -- and their
brainwashed students . . . The anti-American admirers of Marx,
Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Castro on Canadian campuses are not only
wrong. They are an enemy within."
I not only agree with this statement. I will post it on my office door
if need be in the coming weeks.
As Cheryl Richey states in her post (copied below), the United
States is the most generous, peace-loving, conscientious nation in
the world and in the history of the world. The media and academia
faddists who carp against them have finally reached a point where
it would be prudent to SHUT UP.
From: Cheryl Richey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedey
> This is very nice to hear feelings of sympathy. However, feelings are not
> as helpful as actions. I would like to see other countries come to help
> us unbury our people. We are in a time of crisis. We spend billions of
> dollars to come to the need of other countries. We help clean up after
> war; we help when earthquakes hit, we help discourage countries. Now it
> is our turn to need help.
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:59:09 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Kischner, Michael" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Thanks for sending this, Martha. I, too, hope that one of the outcomes of
what happened is a coming together of many nations.
> ----------
> From: Martha Kolln
> Reply To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 4:52 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Our nation's tragedey
>
> Dear friends:
>
> I just received this email from a cousin in Norway:
>
> "It's with grief and shock we got the news about the cruel and cowardly
> attack on your country and all those innocent people. We can hardly find
> words to express how sad we're feeling, but our sympathy is with you and
> also with all those unknown people who have been killed, maimed or have
> lost their loved ones.
> The whole thing is so unreal that you almost have to check that you are
> awake. Beside the human tragedy, this is also a threat to all democratic
> nations in the free world including our country, so even if we are far
> away
> in distance it does also feel very close. One good thing, if one can say
> that in a situation like this, is that the world's major nations seem to
> have become more united and determined to fight these evel elements
> together."
>
>
>
> I wanted to share it with you because I'm sure it represents the
> feelings
> of average citizens all over Europe. Cousin Helge has been here in
> America
> several times; he has a special feeling for New York because he
> participated in the NY Marathon three years ago.
>
> At times like this, of ocurse, grammar issues that we would normally
> debate
> have taken a secondary place in our lives.
>
> Warmest regards to you all.
>
> Martha
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:38:50 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Johanna Rubba <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
While I certainly agree that what happened on Tuesday is an unforgivable
offense against all humankind, I would hope that people would avoid
ideological pronouncements on this list along the lines of Marxists
being 'the enemy within'. There is sure to be a wide spectrum of
viewpoints on this list, including some who do not choose to see only
the positive side of US policy. I especially do not appreciate having
groups or individuals singled out and being told that it is time to
"shut up". That is not respectful, and is hardly in line with free
speech and freedom from intimidation. It borders on flaming.
I do not intend with this remark to start an ideological debate. There
are plenty of venues on the Internet for ideological debate, or
individuals can duke it out off-list. Let's reserve this list for
grammar disputes and ideology that relates directly to grammar
education. I appreciate expressions of sadness such as Martha's, but
let's stay out of specific ideological debates.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics
English Department, California Polytechnic State University
One Grand Avenue • San Luis Obispo, CA 93407
Tel. (805)-756-2184 • Fax: (805)-756-6374 • Dept. Phone. 756-2596
• E-mail: [log in to unmask] • Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:35:35 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Grant MacEwan College
Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedy
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
I have listened to anti-American ideology being intertwined with
academic discussion all of my adult life.
Did you ever find an English department or a Arts Faculty that was
not saturated with ideology?
Personally, I've endured practically _nothing but_ ideological
discussion in academic circles for years on end.
So why is it all of a sudden against the rules of academic
discourse for ME to say something ideological?
Meanwhile, who sets the rules for academic discussions? Who's to
say? It's all relative. Your academic culture just doesn't fit with
mine so mind your own business and don't tell me what I can and
cannot say. Don't gag my voice.
Marxist-leftists academics are experts at using language in
creative new ways to intimidate, distort, and propagandize.
So now, this is Robert using language in his own little way to tell
them to SHUT UP.
Sorry if it borders on flaming (gasp!).
I did not "flame" the WTC, and do I write little articles saying how
the Americans get what they deserve for pissing off off the wrong
terrorists.
> While I certainly agree that what happened on Tuesday is an unforgivable
> offense against all humankind, I would hope that people would avoid
> ideological pronouncements on this list along the lines of Marxists being
> 'the enemy within'. There is sure to be a wide spectrum of viewpoints on
> this list, including some who do not choose to see only the positive side
> of US policy. I especially do not appreciate having groups or individuals
> singled out and being told that it is time to "shut up". That is not
> respectful, and is hardly in line with free speech and freedom from
> intimidation. It borders on flaming.
>
> I do not intend with this remark to start an ideological debate. There are
> plenty of venues on the Internet for ideological debate, or individuals
> can duke it out off-list. Let's reserve this list for grammar disputes and
> ideology that relates directly to grammar education. I appreciate
> expressions of sadness such as Martha's, but let's stay out of specific
> ideological debates.
-----------------------------------------------------
Sincerely, Robert Einarsson
please visit me at
http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:29:59 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ken Bain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Robert and Cheryl,
I hope only that we are wise and generous enough to begin to ask ourselves the
really important questions about the events of Tuesday:
What can we do to protect ourselves?
Why do some people hate our institutions of wealth and military might enough to
conduct a suicide mission against them?
What can we do to address and diminish that hatred and the horrible acts that flow
from it?
I want to believe that the American people are wise enough to begin to explore
these questions, to begin to explore calmly and rationally some of the historical
forces that might account for the rise of this kind of warfare directed at the
US. Time will tell.
Take care and stay out of harm's way.
Robert Einarsson wrote:
> Today I am wearing a black shirt and a tie with Statue of Liberty
> emblems on it.
>
> I am ashamed of the Canadian Prime Minister's comparatively tepid
> statements of solidarity with the United States. I wish that he had
> committed us as firmly as the leaders of Britain and Germany did
> in their statements.
>
> I am also ashamed that our Prime Minister spent last winter
> scoffing and laughing off the calls from our Opposition party to take
> terror links in Canada more seriously.
>
> There is a letter to the editor in the National Post which reads in
> part "In my 32 years as a professor at Simon Fraser University, I
> repeatedly heard negative comments about the U.S. from my
> colleagues -- both Marxist and pseudoMarxist -- and their
> brainwashed students . . . The anti-American admirers of Marx,
> Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Castro on Canadian campuses are not only
> wrong. They are an enemy within."
>
> I not only agree with this statement. I will post it on my office door
> if need be in the coming weeks.
>
> As Cheryl Richey states in her post (copied below), the United
> States is the most generous, peace-loving, conscientious nation in
> the world and in the history of the world. The media and academia
> faddists who carp against them have finally reached a point where
> it would be prudent to SHUT UP.
>
> From: Cheryl Richey <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedey
>
> > This is very nice to hear feelings of sympathy. However, feelings are not
> > as helpful as actions. I would like to see other countries come to help
> > us unbury our people. We are in a time of crisis. We spend billions of
> > dollars to come to the need of other countries. We help clean up after
> > war; we help when earthquakes hit, we help discourage countries. Now it
> > is our turn to need help.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
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Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:58:06 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Herb Stahlke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedy
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
With some hesitation, I suggest that there are parallels between the new =
war on terrorism and the war on drugs. Both are carried on by non-governme=
ntal organizations that, in some cases, operate with the support of =
governments. Both appeal to a sense of alienation and oppression. While =
the appeal is perverted, the popular sense of alienation and oppression =
has some basis in reality. Just as we can't win against the drug trade =
without including drug treatment and anti-poverty programs, we won't win =
against terrorism without also addressing the social conditions that =
terrorist organizations manipulate. I hope our governments will have the =
wisdom to recognize that terrorism has to be fought on both levels. I =
certainly will press my representatives to support this.
Herb Stahlke
<<< [log in to unmask] 9/14 11:05p >>>
Robert and Cheryl,
I hope only that we are wise and generous enough to begin to ask ourselves =
the
really important questions about the events of Tuesday:
What can we do to protect ourselves?
Why do some people hate our institutions of wealth and military might =
enough to
conduct a suicide mission against them?
What can we do to address and diminish that hatred and the horrible acts =
that flow
from it?
I want to believe that the American people are wise enough to begin to =
explore
these questions, to begin to explore calmly and rationally some of the =
historical
forces that might account for the rise of this kind of warfare directed at =
the
US. Time will tell.
Take care and stay out of harm's way.
Robert Einarsson wrote:
> Today I am wearing a black shirt and a tie with Statue of Liberty
> emblems on it.
>
> I am ashamed of the Canadian Prime Minister's comparatively tepid
> statements of solidarity with the United States. I wish that he had
> committed us as firmly as the leaders of Britain and Germany did
> in their statements.
>
> I am also ashamed that our Prime Minister spent last winter
> scoffing and laughing off the calls from our Opposition party to take
> terror links in Canada more seriously.
>
> There is a letter to the editor in the National Post which reads in
> part "In my 32 years as a professor at Simon Fraser University, I
> repeatedly heard negative comments about the U.S. from my
> colleagues -- both Marxist and pseudoMarxist -- and their
> brainwashed students . . . The anti-American admirers of Marx,
> Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Castro on Canadian campuses are not only
> wrong. They are an enemy within."
>
> I not only agree with this statement. I will post it on my office door
> if need be in the coming weeks.
>
> As Cheryl Richey states in her post (copied below), the United
> States is the most generous, peace-loving, conscientious nation in
> the world and in the history of the world. The media and academia
> faddists who carp against them have finally reached a point where
> it would be prudent to SHUT UP.
>
> From: Cheryl Richey <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedey
>
> > This is very nice to hear feelings of sympathy. However, feelings are =
not
> > as helpful as actions. I would like to see other countries come to =
help
> > us unbury our people. We are in a time of crisis. We spend billions =
of
> > dollars to come to the need of other countries. We help clean up after
> > war; we help when earthquakes hit, we help discourage countries. Now =
it
> > is our turn to need help.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
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=20
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:59:31 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Grant MacEwan College
Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> I want to believe that the American people are wise enough to
>begin to explore these questions, to begin to explore calmly and
>rationally some of the historical forces that might account for the
>rise of this kind of warfare directed at the US. Time will tell.
>
> Take care and stay out of harm's way.
The United States has always used a judicious, debate-based
approach in choosing its actions.
The worst non-judicious and undebatably erroneous action that I
know of is the bombing of Sudan in the war of Clinton's pants.
That incident was just a total error and caused horrible suffering.
But in every other military incident in the history of the US, there
has been a reasoned, debated, judicious basis for actions that they
have taken.
You could disagree with any decision, but you cannot characterize
the US actions in history as wild flying off of the handle and
unleashing erratic vengance far and wide without regard to the
circumstances.
There is no reason whatsoeve to believe that in this case it will
suddenly be different. George W. Bush is an honest man. He will
take the course of action that he actually believes to be correct.
You may disagree with his particular choice, but you can rest
assured that it will not be uncontrolled wrath leading to an out of
control situation.
What he will do is to eradicate all fanatic organizations.
Furtheremore, regarding another all-to-common metaphor that is in
your post, these are not "historical forces." They are actions taken
by individual fanatics.
One big problem in this debate is treating actions by individual
agents as the spontaneous release of forces. This is not predicting
the weather. This is some fanatics who were allowed (under the
pathetic and irresponsible regime of Clinton) to gather and plan the
means necessary to carry out these actions.
-----------------------------------------------------
Sincerely, Robert Einarsson
please visit me at
http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 13:00:04 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Johanna Rubba <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I am going to call once again for a cessation of ideological debate on
this list about this particular incident, the roots of terrorism, George
Bush's honesty, the reasonableness of past US actions, etc., etc. This
isn't a call for censorship or an attempt to silence anyone. Mr.
Einarsson and all others are free to express their opinions in any
number of venues. Every specialized list has limits on topics of debate,
and moderated lists are outright censored, in that sense. List members
accept this, or leave the list. We are a self-moderated list, so we must
impose limits ourselves. If every list becomes a venue for discussion of
every topic, there will not be progress on the topic the list is
supposedly devoted to. Topics as hot as Tuesday's events could lead to
endless, emotional debate. I sure have my own very strong opinions, that
I would love to share, about every aspect of the terrorist attack, but
I'm not broadcasting them on a grammar-teaching list.
I know that politics and ideology infuse academia, and where that is
related to the discipline, it makes perfect sense. Marxist vs. other
interpretations of literature are valid debates, _in literary venues_. I
have trouble connecting terrorism and this incident with grammar
pedagogy and even the ideology of education, which we have
(appropriately, I think) discussed in the past.
We all have strong feelings about what happened this week, and we want
to express those feelings, but there are more appropriate venues. There
are lists where, perhaps, the rules of civil debate are more lax, and
people not only openly disagree about interpretations of history and
particular incidents like this, but even trade insults. Being told to
shut up and mind my own business does not encourage me to paricipate in
any kind of exchange, nor does it persuade me to the point of view being
promoted by the issuer of these demands. In fact, it only encourages me
to delete postings from such people unread.
Don't we have enough disagreement among us about grammar teaching
without further muddling things with at best remotely related topics?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics
English Department, California Polytechnic State University
One Grand Avenue • San Luis Obispo, CA 93407
Tel. (805)-756-2184 • Fax: (805)-756-6374 • Dept. Phone. 756-2596
• E-mail: [log in to unmask] • Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:48:04 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Bob Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Dear list members,
Let me second Johanna Rubba's request.
> I am going to call once again for a cessation of ideological debate on
> this list about this particular incident, the roots of terrorism, George
> Bush's honesty, the reasonableness of past US actions, etc., etc.
For me, one of the great attractions to the study of language is that it is the one
unique quality which every human being shares with every other human being in the
world. We are all born with this wonderful capacity; only the most extraordinary
conditions can prevent us from learning language. Despite the apparent
differences we experience on the surface of the world's languages, all the world's
languages are fundamentally related to properties which every human being is born
with.
For almost twenty years I have had the good fortunate of teaching English to people
from all over the world. My spouse was not born the United States. As a
consequence, I have lived for several years in other countries.
In my professional life and private life, I both celebrate the diversity in human
beings and the fact that beneath that diversity are properties which I share with
all other human beings. I truly believe that those who planned and carried out the
attacks on Washington and New York are fundamentally opposed to the kind of
diversity and universal humanity which I celebrate
For people of good will all over the world, this is not a time to engage in finger
pointing when there are among us some who hate our world so much that they will do
literally anything to destroy it.
Bob Yates, Central Missouri State University
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:11:03 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: David D Mulroy <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Is this relevant?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
"I know of no country in which, speaking generally, there is less
independence of mind and true freedom of discussion than in America."
Alexis de Tocqueville
On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Johanna Rubba wrote:
> I am going to call once again for a cessation of ideological debate on
> this list about this particular incident, the roots of terrorism, George
> Bush's honesty, the reasonableness of past US actions, etc., etc. This
> isn't a call for censorship or an attempt to silence anyone. Mr.
> Einarsson and all others are free to express their opinions in any
> number of venues. Every specialized list has limits on topics of debate,
> and moderated lists are outright censored, in that sense. List members
> accept this, or leave the list. We are a self-moderated list, so we must
> impose limits ourselves. If every list becomes a venue for discussion of
> every topic, there will not be progress on the topic the list is
> supposedly devoted to. Topics as hot as Tuesday's events could lead to
> endless, emotional debate. I sure have my own very strong opinions, that
> I would love to share, about every aspect of the terrorist attack, but
> I'm not broadcasting them on a grammar-teaching list.
>=20
> I know that politics and ideology infuse academia, and where that is
> related to the discipline, it makes perfect sense. Marxist vs. other
> interpretations of literature are valid debates, _in literary venues_. I
> have trouble connecting terrorism and this incident with grammar
> pedagogy and even the ideology of education, which we have
> (appropriately, I think) discussed in the past.
>=20
> We all have strong feelings about what happened this week, and we want
> to express those feelings, but there are more appropriate venues. There
> are lists where, perhaps, the rules of civil debate are more lax, and
> people not only openly disagree about interpretations of history and
> particular incidents like this, but even trade insults. Being told to
> shut up and mind my own business does not encourage me to paricipate in
> any kind of exchange, nor does it persuade me to the point of view being
> promoted by the issuer of these demands. In fact, it only encourages me
> to delete postings from such people unread.
>=20
> Don't we have enough disagreement among us about grammar teaching
> without further muddling things with at best remotely related topics?
>=20
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics
> English Department, California Polytechnic State University
> One Grand Avenue =95 San Luis Obispo, CA 93407
> Tel. (805)-756-2184 =95 Fax: (805)-756-6374 =95 Dept. Phone. 756-2596
> =95 E-mail: [log in to unmask] =95 Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu=
/~jrubba
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>=20
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>=20
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 04:21:25 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Nancy Patterson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Is this relevant?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I've been on this list less than a year and am less part of this community
than I am on other e-mail discussion lists where I am "more present" either
because of my frequent posts or my long subscription. But let me assure you
that every list I belong to is discussing the events of this week. We live
in the world. As academics we must always put our work within the context
of that world. And though the dicussion of grammar and its role in the
classroom is not directly related to the attacks on Tuesday, to ignore the
need to discuss those attacks, to express both concern for the victims and
their families and for the state of the world in general is to ignore a very
human need. Some of us need to ground our discussions in reflections on how
a world of humans could bring about the events on Tuesday. Some of us need
to express our sorrow. Can't there be room for a while for both such
expressions?
In good time the discussions will all go back to their designated topics.
But for the time being, for as long as it takes, don't close off the
discussions, the reflections, the speculations on how the world spawned such
actions. I received a post today from another list that came indirectly
from Shelley Harwayne, superintendent of Manhattan school district #2. She
told about children entering one of the schools in her district--only a
couple blocks away from the WTC--telling a teacher that birds were burning
in the sky. What the child saw, of course, were burning bodies of people
leaping from one of the towers.
Who of us can keep our minds on academic discussions when children see such
things. The academy will have its day again soon enough.
Nancy G. Patterson, PhD
English Department Chair
Portland Middle School, Portland, MI
"To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone can
learn."
--bell hooks
[log in to unmask]
http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm
http://www.npatterson.net
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:22:26 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: The Total Tutor
Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I think no one has said it better than Johanna and Bob have done below. Now
let's stop the digression and move the list back to its true center of
attention.
Paul E. Doniger
The Gilbert School
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Yates <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain
> Dear list members,
>
> Let me second Johanna Rubba's request.
>
> > I am going to call once again for a cessation of ideological debate on
> > this list about this particular incident, the roots of terrorism, George
> > Bush's honesty, the reasonableness of past US actions, etc., etc.
>
> For me, one of the great attractions to the study of language is that it
is the one
> unique quality which every human being shares with every other human being
in the
> world. We are all born with this wonderful capacity; only the most
extraordinary
> conditions can prevent us from learning language. Despite the apparent
> differences we experience on the surface of the world's languages, all the
world's
> languages are fundamentally related to properties which every human being
is born
> with.
>
> For almost twenty years I have had the good fortunate of teaching English
to people
> from all over the world. My spouse was not born the United States. As a
> consequence, I have lived for several years in other countries.
>
> In my professional life and private life, I both celebrate the diversity
in human
> beings and the fact that beneath that diversity are properties which I
share with
> all other human beings. I truly believe that those who planned and
carried out the
> attacks on Washington and New York are fundamentally opposed to the kind
of
> diversity and universal humanity which I celebrate
>
> For people of good will all over the world, this is not a time to engage
in finger
> pointing when there are among us some who hate our world so much that they
will do
> literally anything to destroy it.
>
> Bob Yates, Central Missouri State University
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:29:16 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Is this relevant?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Hear. Hear. Nicely put.
> From: Nancy Patterson <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 04:21:25 -0400
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Is this relevant?
>
> I've been on this list less than a year and am less part of this community
> than I am on other e-mail discussion lists where I am "more present" either
> because of my frequent posts or my long subscription. But let me assure you
> that every list I belong to is discussing the events of this week. We live
> in the world. As academics we must always put our work within the context
> of that world. And though the dicussion of grammar and its role in the
> classroom is not directly related to the attacks on Tuesday, to ignore the
> need to discuss those attacks, to express both concern for the victims and
> their families and for the state of the world in general is to ignore a very
> human need. Some of us need to ground our discussions in reflections on how
> a world of humans could bring about the events on Tuesday. Some of us need
> to express our sorrow. Can't there be room for a while for both such
> expressions?
>
> In good time the discussions will all go back to their designated topics.
> But for the time being, for as long as it takes, don't close off the
> discussions, the reflections, the speculations on how the world spawned such
> actions. I received a post today from another list that came indirectly
> from Shelley Harwayne, superintendent of Manhattan school district #2. She
> told about children entering one of the schools in her district--only a
> couple blocks away from the WTC--telling a teacher that birds were burning
> in the sky. What the child saw, of course, were burning bodies of people
> leaping from one of the towers.
>
> Who of us can keep our minds on academic discussions when children see such
> things. The academy will have its day again soon enough.
>
> Nancy G. Patterson, PhD
> English Department Chair
> Portland Middle School, Portland, MI
>
> "To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone can
> learn."
>
> --bell hooks
>
> [log in to unmask]
>
> http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm
> http://www.npatterson.net
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 13:24:00 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, I am obviously in the minority, but despite the strong language from =
some members of this (and who can blame them?), I do not believe the list =
has gone over the top in terms of the 'digressions' on the national =
crisis.
Yes, there are more appropriate forums, but I think each and every forum =
at this time should be willing to listen to ideological debates (even =
finger pointing) within certain limits. =20
What are the limit? I don't know, but given the scope of the tragedy, I =
don't think the list has come close to being overwhelmed by digressions.
One unfortunate image of those of us who study grammar is that we focus on =
minutia. This stereotype is not true, but I think that insisting we focus =
only on technical aspects of language is not going to change anyone's mind =
that grammarians are out of touch with the bigger issues of communication.
So I guess I would enter a small plea for more tolerance of the digressions=
, for a little while longer at least.
larry beason
<<< "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> 9/15 6:22p >>>
I think no one has said it better than Johanna and Bob have done below. =
Now
let's stop the digression and move the list back to its true center of
attention.
Paul E. Doniger
The Gilbert School
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Yates <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain
> Dear list members,
>
> Let me second Johanna Rubba's request.
>
> > I am going to call once again for a cessation of ideological debate on
> > this list about this particular incident, the roots of terrorism, =
George
> > Bush's honesty, the reasonableness of past US actions, etc., etc.
>
> For me, one of the great attractions to the study of language is that it
is the one
> unique quality which every human being shares with every other human =
being
in the
> world. We are all born with this wonderful capacity; only the most
extraordinary
> conditions can prevent us from learning language. Despite the apparent
> differences we experience on the surface of the world's languages, all =
the
world's
> languages are fundamentally related to properties which every human =
being
is born
> with.
>
> For almost twenty years I have had the good fortunate of teaching =
English
to people
> from all over the world. My spouse was not born the United States. As =
a
> consequence, I have lived for several years in other countries.
>
> In my professional life and private life, I both celebrate the diversity
in human
> beings and the fact that beneath that diversity are properties which I
share with
> all other human beings. I truly believe that those who planned and
carried out the
> attacks on Washington and New York are fundamentally opposed to the kind
of
> diversity and universal humanity which I celebrate
>
> For people of good will all over the world, this is not a time to engage
in finger
> pointing when there are among us some who hate our world so much that =
they
will do
> literally anything to destroy it.
>
> Bob Yates, Central Missouri State University
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface
at:
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 15:46:07 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Herb Stahlke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I agree with Larry. As academics who focus on the minutiae of language, =
we are directly involved in teaching out students to think critically and =
clearly. If there has ever been a time when the world needs those skills, =
it's now. Let's continue to pound away at ideas, testing our own against =
those of our colleagues. We might come out of it with better considered =
views all around, views that we can use to contribute to discussions =
outside of the academy, discussions like the adult class at my church had =
this morning. We'll get back to grammatical topics, but this discussion =
is in the spirit of previous debates we've had about how to teach grammar. =
We're looking for better ideas to take away from our circle.
Herb Stahlke
<<< [log in to unmask] 9/16 1:27p >>>
Well, I am obviously in the minority, but despite the strong language from =
some members of this (and who can blame them?), I do not believe the list =
has gone over the top in terms of the 'digressions' on the national =
crisis.
Yes, there are more appropriate forums, but I think each and every forum =
at this time should be willing to listen to ideological debates (even =
finger pointing) within certain limits. =20
What are the limit? I don't know, but given the scope of the tragedy, I =
don't think the list has come close to being overwhelmed by digressions.
One unfortunate image of those of us who study grammar is that we focus on =
minutia. This stereotype is not true, but I think that insisting we focus =
only on technical aspects of language is not going to change anyone's mind =
that grammarians are out of touch with the bigger issues of communication.
So I guess I would enter a small plea for more tolerance of the digressions=
, for a little while longer at least.
larry beason
<<< "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> 9/15 6:22p >>>
I think no one has said it better than Johanna and Bob have done below. =
Now
let's stop the digression and move the list back to its true center of
attention.
Paul E. Doniger
The Gilbert School
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Yates <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain
> Dear list members,
>
> Let me second Johanna Rubba's request.
>
> > I am going to call once again for a cessation of ideological debate on
> > this list about this particular incident, the roots of terrorism, =
George
> > Bush's honesty, the reasonableness of past US actions, etc., etc.
>
> For me, one of the great attractions to the study of language is that it
is the one
> unique quality which every human being shares with every other human =
being
in the
> world. We are all born with this wonderful capacity; only the most
extraordinary
> conditions can prevent us from learning language. Despite the apparent
> differences we experience on the surface of the world's languages, all =
the
world's
> languages are fundamentally related to properties which every human =
being
is born
> with.
>
> For almost twenty years I have had the good fortunate of teaching =
English
to people
> from all over the world. My spouse was not born the United States. As =
a
> consequence, I have lived for several years in other countries.
>
> In my professional life and private life, I both celebrate the diversity
in human
> beings and the fact that beneath that diversity are properties which I
share with
> all other human beings. I truly believe that those who planned and
carried out the
> attacks on Washington and New York are fundamentally opposed to the kind
of
> diversity and universal humanity which I celebrate
>
> For people of good will all over the world, this is not a time to engage
in finger
> pointing when there are among us some who hate our world so much that =
they
will do
> literally anything to destroy it.
>
> Bob Yates, Central Missouri State University
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
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=20
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:33:03 +0300
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Is direct grammar instruction needed in grade school?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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RVUED> ATEG members:
RVUED> In your opinion, is it necessary to have
RVUED> direct grammar instruction at the
RVUED> elementary school level, ...?
Perhaps it isn't directly relevant, but my children, seven and five,
are Arabic/English bilinguals. They are in an Arabic medium school in
Riyadh and receive eight hours French instruction per week.
I have noticed that formal grammar rules form an integral part of both
Arabic and French (native and foreign language) instruction at their
school and this appears to be the general practice in the Arab world.
By the third grade children can already distinguish verbs from nouns,
describe the function and use of adverbs and adjectives, and they know
the technical vocabulary of grammar in both languages.
I am teaching English grammar at one of Riyadh's universities. This
task is made considerably easier by students' unfailing knowledge of
the core concepts of formal grammar and by their familiarity with the
Arabic terminology used to describe it.
English is, of course, not the same as French or Arabic and it is
quite impossible to write either of these languages correctly without
a sound understanding of "traditional rules of grammar". English is,
nevertheless, very subtle and it seems to me unreasonable to expect
anyone to use it well who has not been taught how it works.
There are degrees of literacy. One of the cultural problems of the
English speaking world is that it is cut away from its sources, from
the common experience of the English speaking peoples spanning some
seven centuries. That experience is contained, for the most part, in
books, and most of those books are inaccessible to all but a fortunate
few. The reason for that is obvious, at least to me.
Omar
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:40:59 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Reinhold Schlieper <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Embry-Riddle University
Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedey
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And about their willingness to help, other countries are conflicted.
The official government of Pakistan has assured Pakistan's assistance;
the persons on the street, religious and convinced of their rightness,
are engaged in anti-American protests. So, will we radicalize Pakistan
when the government has been set to opposition with its own people? The
Sauds are in a similarly precarious situation. And we have seen how
these things happen once before when the Shah was our staunch ally in
opposition to the religious in his country.
'Tain't all that easy, I'd say. We can't make world politics with a
broadsword; it takes some figuring and listening and analyzing before we
hack away at anyone.
==Reinhold
Maureen Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
> I guess my first response is that you don't give help or charity so other
> countries will "owe" you; you give it because you have it and someone else
> needs it.
>
> And, in this case, I'm not really sure we need rescue or economic help from
> other countries. The people coordinating the rescue efforts seem to have
> more volunteers than they can use because teams from all over the US wish to
> help. What we will be needing from other nations is help in other ways; when
> we get enough information about who is responsible and where they are, we
> will probably be calling on many nations to put their sympathies and ideals
> above their own best economic interests and potentially even their own
> safety-that could cost many of them a lot.
>
> Maureen Fitzpatrick
> Associate Professor, English
> Johnson County Community College
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cheryl Richey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 10:35 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedey
>
> This is very nice to hear feelings of sympathy. However, feelings are not
> as helpful as actions. I would like to see other countries come to help us
> unbury our people. We are in a time of crisis. We spend billions of dollars
> to come to the need of other countries. We help clean up after war; we help
> when earthquakes hit, we help discourage countries. Now it is our turn to
> need help.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 4:52 PM
> Subject: Our nation's tragedey
>
> > Dear friends:
> >
> > I just received this email from a cousin in Norway:
> >
> > "It's with grief and shock we got the news about the cruel and cowardly
> > attack on your country and all those innocent people. We can hardly find
> > words to express how sad we're feeling, but our sympathy is with you and
> > also with all those unknown people who have been killed, maimed or have
> > lost their loved ones.
> > The whole thing is so unreal that you almost have to check that you are
> > awake. Beside the human tragedy, this is also a threat to all democratic
> > nations in the free world including our country, so even if we are far
> away
> > in distance it does also feel very close. One good thing, if one can say
> > that in a situation like this, is that the world's major nations seem to
> > have become more united and determined to fight these evel elements
> > together."
> >
> >
> >
> > I wanted to share it with you because I'm sure it represents the
> feelings
> > of average citizens all over Europe. Cousin Helge has been here in
> America
> > several times; he has a special feeling for New York because he
> > participated in the NY Marathon three years ago.
> >
> > At times like this, of ocurse, grammar issues that we would normally
> debate
> > have taken a secondary place in our lives.
> >
> > Warmest regards to you all.
> >
> > Martha
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:44:02 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Reinhold Schlieper <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Embry-Riddle University
Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedy
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I suppose we could unearth and lend you Joe McCarty, suppose? All the
NAZIs needed for the radicalization of Germany was the burning of the
Reichstag; you have more material to radicalize North America now.
==Bon chance, Reinhold
Robert Einarsson wrote:
> There is a letter to the editor in the National Post which reads in
> part "In my 32 years as a professor at Simon Fraser University, I
> repeatedly heard negative comments about the U.S. from my
> colleagues -- both Marxist and pseudoMarxist -- and their
> brainwashed students . . . The anti-American admirers of Marx,
> Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Castro on Canadian campuses are not only
> wrong. They are an enemy within."
>
> I not only agree with this statement. I will post it on my office door
> if need be in the coming weeks.
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Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:45:20 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Reinhold Schlieper <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Embry-Riddle University
Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Thank you for that voice of reason and rationality, Johanna!
==Reinhold
Johanna Rubba wrote:
>
> While I certainly agree that what happened on Tuesday is an unforgivable
> offense against all humankind, I would hope that people would avoid
> ideological pronouncements on this list along the lines of Marxists
> being 'the enemy within'. There is sure to be a wide spectrum of
> viewpoints on this list, including some who do not choose to see only
> the positive side of US policy. I especially do not appreciate having
> groups or individuals singled out and being told that it is time to
> "shut up". That is not respectful, and is hardly in line with free
> speech and freedom from intimidation. It borders on flaming.
>
> I do not intend with this remark to start an ideological debate. There
> are plenty of venues on the Internet for ideological debate, or
> individuals can duke it out off-list. Let's reserve this list for
> grammar disputes and ideology that relates directly to grammar
> education. I appreciate expressions of sadness such as Martha's, but
> let's stay out of specific ideological debates.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics
> English Department, California Polytechnic State University
> One Grand Avenue • San Luis Obispo, CA 93407
> Tel. (805)-756-2184 • Fax: (805)-756-6374 • Dept. Phone. 756-2596
> • E-mail: [log in to unmask] • Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:07:22 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ann Carol Pryor <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain
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We all want to discuss the attack and its consequences, and we all want to
think about something else. But when we talk or think about something else,
we all come back to the attack because everything else seems trivial. That
attack is what is in everyone's mind. I went on a getaway weekend this past
Saturday and Sunday to try to stop watching television. I went to upstate
NY wine country which was jammed with people all doing the same thing. How
did I know that? Everywhere I went, everywhere I stayed, every winery I
visited I found people talking about how they were getting away and trying
to laugh and learning that they could talk about only one thing for any
sustained period of time. If we don't talk about it here we will talk about
it somewhere else. If talk about it here is forbidden, few will have
anything to say .----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Beason" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain
Well, I am obviously in the minority, but despite the strong language from
some members of this (and who can blame them?), I do not believe the list
has gone over the top in terms of the 'digressions' on the national crisis.
Yes, there are more appropriate forums, but I think each and every forum at
this time should be willing to listen to ideological debates (even finger
pointing) within certain limits.
What are the limit? I don't know, but given the scope of the tragedy, I
don't think the list has come close to being overwhelmed by digressions.
One unfortunate image of those of us who study grammar is that we focus on
minutia. This stereotype is not true, but I think that insisting we focus
only on technical aspects of language is not going to change anyone's mind
that grammarians are out of touch with the bigger issues of communication.
So I guess I would enter a small plea for more tolerance of the digressions,
for a little while longer at least.
larry beason
<<< "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> 9/15 6:22p >>>
I think no one has said it better than Johanna and Bob have done below. Now
let's stop the digression and move the list back to its true center of
attention.
Paul E. Doniger
The Gilbert School
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Yates <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain
> Dear list members,
>
> Let me second Johanna Rubba's request.
>
> > I am going to call once again for a cessation of ideological debate on
> > this list about this particular incident, the roots of terrorism, George
> > Bush's honesty, the reasonableness of past US actions, etc., etc.
>
> For me, one of the great attractions to the study of language is that it
is the one
> unique quality which every human being shares with every other human being
in the
> world. We are all born with this wonderful capacity; only the most
extraordinary
> conditions can prevent us from learning language. Despite the apparent
> differences we experience on the surface of the world's languages, all the
world's
> languages are fundamentally related to properties which every human being
is born
> with.
>
> For almost twenty years I have had the good fortunate of teaching English
to people
> from all over the world. My spouse was not born the United States. As a
> consequence, I have lived for several years in other countries.
>
> In my professional life and private life, I both celebrate the diversity
in human
> beings and the fact that beneath that diversity are properties which I
share with
> all other human beings. I truly believe that those who planned and
carried out the
> attacks on Washington and New York are fundamentally opposed to the kind
of
> diversity and universal humanity which I celebrate
>
> For people of good will all over the world, this is not a time to engage
in finger
> pointing when there are among us some who hate our world so much that they
will do
> literally anything to destroy it.
>
> Bob Yates, Central Missouri State University
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:10:58 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ann Carol Pryor <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Is this relevant?
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Of course!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nancy Patterson" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 4:21 AM
Subject: Re: Is this relevant?
> I've been on this list less than a year and am less part of this community
> than I am on other e-mail discussion lists where I am "more present"
either
> because of my frequent posts or my long subscription. But let me assure
you
> that every list I belong to is discussing the events of this week. We
live
> in the world. As academics we must always put our work within the context
> of that world. And though the dicussion of grammar and its role in the
> classroom is not directly related to the attacks on Tuesday, to ignore the
> need to discuss those attacks, to express both concern for the victims and
> their families and for the state of the world in general is to ignore a
very
> human need. Some of us need to ground our discussions in reflections on
how
> a world of humans could bring about the events on Tuesday. Some of us
need
> to express our sorrow. Can't there be room for a while for both such
> expressions?
>
> In good time the discussions will all go back to their designated topics.
> But for the time being, for as long as it takes, don't close off the
> discussions, the reflections, the speculations on how the world spawned
such
> actions. I received a post today from another list that came indirectly
> from Shelley Harwayne, superintendent of Manhattan school district #2.
She
> told about children entering one of the schools in her district--only a
> couple blocks away from the WTC--telling a teacher that birds were burning
> in the sky. What the child saw, of course, were burning bodies of people
> leaping from one of the towers.
>
> Who of us can keep our minds on academic discussions when children see
such
> things. The academy will have its day again soon enough.
>
> Nancy G. Patterson, PhD
> English Department Chair
> Portland Middle School, Portland, MI
>
> "To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone
can
> learn."
>
> --bell hooks
>
> [log in to unmask]
>
> http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm
> http://www.npatterson.net
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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>
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Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:55:19 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Grant MacEwan College
Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain
In-Reply-To: <002a01c13e3d$5c7b5bc0$1de63ccc@PDoniger>
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Johanna,
if you would like a cessation of ideological debate then don't write
in and say that some of us are "those who do not choose to see
only the good in US foreign policy." This imples that there are
others on this list are purposely ignorant and wrong headed about
U.S. policy.
I know that most academics are skilled insinuators. It's pretty
hypocritical too. So don't make ideological remarks because from
now on I am answering each and every ideological remark, no
matter how snide.
-----------------------------------------------------
Sincerely, Robert Einarsson
please visit me at
http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb
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Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:51:32 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Grant MacEwan College
Subject: Re: direct grammar instruction
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Thank you for sending this post; it is much more than just relevant.
Your information that Arabic schools teach traditional grammar (for
both first and second languages) is valuable. It is the same
practice that other contributors from outside of North America have
observed. There are many countries which still teach traditional
grammar. Most visitors and new Canadians that I have spoken to
are a little surprised at what's going on in our schools.
Like most who comment on this, you consider your own children
fortunate to recieve this kind of education. This is another positive
testimony on traditional grammar.
As you describe it, your children seem to be receiving a truly rich
and varied education!
Date sent: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:33:03 +0300
Send reply to: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
From: Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Is direct grammar instruction needed in grade school?
To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Perhaps it isn't directly relevant, but my children, seven and five,
> are Arabic/English bilinguals. They are in an Arabic medium school in
> Riyadh and receive eight hours French instruction per week.
>
> I have noticed that formal grammar rules form an integral part of both
> Arabic and French (native and foreign language) instruction at their
> school and this appears to be the general practice in the Arab world. By
> the third grade children can already distinguish verbs from nouns,
> describe the function and use of adverbs and adjectives, and they know the
> technical vocabulary of grammar in both languages.
>
> I am teaching English grammar at one of Riyadh's universities. This
> task is made considerably easier by students' unfailing knowledge of
> the core concepts of formal grammar and by their familiarity with the
> Arabic terminology used to describe it.
>
> English is, of course, not the same as French or Arabic and it is
> quite impossible to write either of these languages correctly without a
> sound understanding of "traditional rules of grammar". English is,
> nevertheless, very subtle and it seems to me unreasonable to expect anyone
> to use it well who has not been taught how it works.
>
> There are degrees of literacy. One of the cultural problems of the
> English speaking world is that it is cut away from its sources, from
> the common experience of the English speaking peoples spanning some
> seven centuries. That experience is contained, for the most part, in
> books, and most of those books are inaccessible to all but a fortunate
> few. The reason for that is obvious, at least to me.
>
>
> Omar
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
-----------------------------------------------------
Sincerely, Robert Einarsson
please visit me at
http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 05:42:46 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Nancy Patterson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: direct grammar instruction
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
We do have to remember, however, that other countries do not necessarily
provide as much access to education. By that I mean that American public
schools teach to a very wide variety of students. European schools separate
students and they do so through formal testing programs. When you start
thinking about a larger variety of students and consider the ways in which
they learn, you must begin to accommodate those different learning styles.
And I DO need to remind you that the vast majority of American public school
students still get very traditional grammar instruction. They get it, but
they don't necessarily learn it. We have to ask ourselves why that is.
The conception here seems to be that traditional grammar is no longer taught
in public schools. I challenge those who think this to visit a dozen
secondary schools and then report back. Don't, by the way, rely too much of
students' reports about what they were taught. For a number of reasons
these reports are not necessarily reliable.
Nancy
At 05:51 PM 9/17/01 -0600, you wrote:
>Thank you for sending this post; it is much more than just relevant.
>
>Your information that Arabic schools teach traditional grammar (for
>both first and second languages) is valuable. It is the same
>practice that other contributors from outside of North America have
>observed. There are many countries which still teach traditional
>grammar. Most visitors and new Canadians that I have spoken to
>are a little surprised at what's going on in our schools.
>
>Like most who comment on this, you consider your own children
>fortunate to recieve this kind of education. This is another positive
>testimony on traditional grammar.
>
>As you describe it, your children seem to be receiving a truly rich
>and varied education!
Nancy G. Patterson, PhD
English Department Chair
Portland Middle School, Portland, MI
"To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone can
learn."
--bell hooks
[log in to unmask]
http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm
http://www.npatterson.net
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:54:01 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: The Total Tutor
Subject: Re: civility in times of crisis
MIME-Version: 1.0
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To my fellow educators,
Perhaps it is foolish of me to make this request, but some of the recent
exchanges over the tragedy have become too mean spirited and uncivil to
ignore. We are supposed to be representatives of a community of critical
thinkers. We are supposed to be more sensitive than most to the power of
words. We are supposed to know that once something is said, it is difficult
to make it un-said. We are supposed to be mindful of the value of
diversity -- not only of ethnicity, but also of thought.
Why can't we also be civil in our differences? Why can't we agree, even in
times of upheaval, to treat one another with simple common decency?
I implore everyone not to increase the anger and rage that many of us are
feeling over the events of last Tuesday and their aftermath. If we cannot
respond to these events with clear heads and clean tongues, then perhaps it
would be best that we don't respond at all. Let's be representatives of
kindness even when there seem to be no other such representatives.
If need be, count to ten before commenting on the tragedy. Count very
slowly. Let's not descend to a level of discourse that seems hardly better
than the thoughts of those who angered us in the first place by their insane
actions last week.
Paul E. Doniger
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain
> Johanna,
>
> if you would like a cessation of ideological debate then don't write
> in and say that some of us are "those who do not choose to see
> only the good in US foreign policy." This imples that there are
> others on this list are purposely ignorant and wrong headed about
> U.S. policy.
>
> I know that most academics are skilled insinuators. It's pretty
> hypocritical too. So don't make ideological remarks because from
> now on I am answering each and every ideological remark, no
> matter how snide.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Sincerely, Robert Einarsson
> please visit me at
> http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 04:26:33 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: The KISS Grammar Site
Subject: Irresponsible?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="------------DB0872C7D4FD41434B6B8764"
--------------DB0872C7D4FD41434B6B8764
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Since I took the time to read most of the messages that were
posted, I hope members of this list won't mind my usual complaint. (If
you do, use the delete button.)
I was struck by Rebecca's description of how she has students use
tape recorders, and by the praise for her approach sent in by other
members of the list. My initial reaction is that what she is doing is
irresponsible and unethical. She may, of course, be able to prove me
wrong, but I would like to see the evidence. I don't believe that she
can effectively provide her students with a good analytical grasp of
sentence structure, no matter what textbook she uses, in a single
semester while doing what she says she does.
I note this in the context of Janet McClaskey's article in the
September issue of English Journal. Although the article is not about
grammar, McCloskey notes that two of her colleagues had been teaching
students -- for twenty years-- that "because" is a coordinating
conjunction. When one of the teachers looked it up, she was horrified by
what she had been doing. McClasky claims that she can raise students
test scores by, among other things, teaching them never to use a comma
before "because." (The teachers who had considered "because" as a
coordinating conjunction had been teaching their students to always put
a comma before "because." )
I'm sure that some members of this list will want to argue the
question of test scores, and some may even claim that "because" IS a
coordinating conjunction. My question, however, is this:
What evidence can those of you teaching teachers (and doing what Rebecca
does) offer to show that students who pass your courses (future
teachers) do indeed have a solid, conscious command of sentence
structure? Among other things, will they know that a sentence such as
"The plane crashed five miles from here, its tail pointed at the sky" is
not a comma-splice? (Or will they mark such sentences in their students'
writing as errors?)
Having taught future teachers (an entire semester devoted to grammar),
it seems to me that many of you are having a great party, but it is all
dessert and no meat, potatoes, and vegetables.
Just wondering.
Ed V.
--------------DB0872C7D4FD41434B6B8764
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Since I took the time to read most of the
messages that were posted, I hope members of this list won't mind my usual
complaint. (If you do, use the delete button.)
<br> I was struck by Rebecca's description of how
she has students use tape recorders, and by the praise for her approach
sent in by other members of the list. My initial reaction is that what
she is doing is irresponsible and unethical. She may, of course, be able
to prove me wrong, but I would like to see the evidence. I don't believe
that she can effectively provide her students with a good analytical grasp
of sentence structure, no matter what textbook she uses, in a single semester
while doing what she says she does.
<br> I note this in the context of Janet McClaskey's
article in the September issue of <i>English Journal</i>. Although the
article is not about grammar, McCloskey notes that two of her colleagues
had been teaching students -- for twenty years-- that "because" is a coordinating
conjunction. When one of the teachers looked it up, she was horrified by
what she had been doing. McClasky claims that she can raise students test
scores by, among other things, teaching them never to use a comma before
"because." (The teachers who had considered "because" as a coordinating
conjunction had been teaching their students to always put a comma before
"because." )
<br> I'm sure that some members of
this list will want to argue the question of test scores, and some may
even claim that "because" IS a coordinating conjunction. My question, however,
is this:
<p>What evidence can those of you teaching teachers (and doing what Rebecca
does) offer to show that students who pass your courses (future teachers)
do indeed have a solid, conscious command of sentence structure? Among
other things, will they know that a sentence such as "The plane crashed
five miles from here, its tail pointed at the sky" is not a comma-splice?
(Or will they mark such sentences in their students' writing as errors?)
<p>Having taught future teachers (an entire semester devoted to grammar),
it seems to me that many of you are having a great party, but it is all
dessert and no meat, potatoes, and vegetables.
<p>Just wondering.
<br>Ed V.</html>
--------------DB0872C7D4FD41434B6B8764--
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:04:47 +0300
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Mikel Garant <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Irresponsible?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi!
I am intersted in comparative education and would like to cooperate with anyone
interested on the list. Maybe we could write a paper on how grammar is taught
in several settings? Contact me if you are interested.
We do two years of required grammar in my program which is designed for future
English teachers in Finnish public schools.
Here is a very brief summary of what we do:
In the first year, we use Leech and Svartvik (1994) plus other material and do
topics like countability, number and accord, definite and indefinite, simple
and progressive, past simple and present perfect, etc...
In the second year we use a variety of articles because we do more theory.
Students may take additional grammar courses as electives (TG, verb courses,
corpus studies, etc.)
Students also must study Finnish-English and English-Finnish constrastive
studies and other courses like writing which often focus on grammar.
Our students may study taped spoken English transcriptions in courses like
linguistic change and variation in English, sociolinguistics, phonetics,
discourse analysis, intercultural communication or other courses.
I think understanding the differences between spoken language and written
language is very important but I do not consider that grammar.
One could argue that it is a type of grammar but I don't see it that way.
All the Best,
Mike
Quoting Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]>:
> Since I took the time to read most of the messages that were
> posted, I hope members of this list won't mind my usual complaint. (If
> you do, use the delete button.)
> I was struck by Rebecca's description of how she has students use
> tape recorders, and by the praise for her approach sent in by other
> members of the list. My initial reaction is that what she is doing is
> irresponsible and unethical. She may, of course, be able to prove me
> wrong, but I would like to see the evidence. I don't believe that she
> can effectively provide her students with a good analytical grasp of
> sentence structure, no matter what textbook she uses, in a single
> semester while doing what she says she does.
> I note this in the context of Janet McClaskey's article in the
> September issue of English Journal. Although the article is not about
> grammar, McCloskey notes that two of her colleagues had been teaching
> students -- for twenty years-- that "because" is a coordinating
> conjunction. When one of the teachers looked it up, she was horrified by
> what she had been doing. McClasky claims that she can raise students
> test scores by, among other things, teaching them never to use a comma
> before "because." (The teachers who had considered "because" as a
> coordinating conjunction had been teaching their students to always put
> a comma before "because." )
> I'm sure that some members of this list will want to argue the
> question of test scores, and some may even claim that "because" IS a
> coordinating conjunction. My question, however, is this:
>
> What evidence can those of you teaching teachers (and doing what Rebecca
> does) offer to show that students who pass your courses (future
> teachers) do indeed have a solid, conscious command of sentence
> structure? Among other things, will they know that a sentence such as
> "The plane crashed five miles from here, its tail pointed at the sky" is
> not a comma-splice? (Or will they mark such sentences in their students'
> writing as errors?)
>
> Having taught future teachers (an entire semester devoted to grammar),
> it seems to me that many of you are having a great party, but it is all
> dessert and no meat, potatoes, and vegetables.
>
> Just wondering.
> Ed V.
>
Dr. Mike Garant
School of Modern Language and Translation Studies Room C 353
University of Tampere
Pyynikintie 2
FIN-33014 University of Tampere
Finland
Office phone 03 215 6134
Associate Editor of Academic Echange Quarterly (AEQ):
http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:46:12 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ann Carol Pryor <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Einarsson" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain
> Johanna,
>
> if you would like a cessation of ideological debate then don't write
> in and say that some of us are "those who do not choose to see
> only the good in US foreign policy." This imples that there are
> others on this list are purposely ignorant and wrong headed about
> U.S. policy.
>
> I know that most academics are skilled insinuators. It's pretty
> hypocritical too. So don't make ideological remarks because from
> now on I am answering each and every ideological remark, no
> matter how snide.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Sincerely, Robert Einarsson
> please visit me at
> http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:13:39 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Herb Stahlke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Irresponsible?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The question of how grammar is taught in different cultures has come up =
several times recently, as if other cultures necessarily have it right. =
I'm pretty sure we don't, on the subject of grammar, but I'm not sure I =
want what goes with rigorous grammars in, for example, Saudi schools. I =
have Saudi graduate students who are all experienced English teachers in =
Saudi schools, and they tell me, all of them, that regimentation and =
student and administration expectations give them very little room to try =
different approaches. It shows up clearly in their exam answers in TESOL =
methods courses.
However, those reservations aside, Dick Hudson did a study a few years ago =
on how grammar is taught in different national school systems. I don't =
remember the title of it, but you might be able to find it on his web site =
at
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/dick/papers.htm=20
The paper "Is grammar teachable" is definitely relevant to our discussion.
Herb Stahlke
>>> [log in to unmask] 09/18/01 04:04AM >>>
Hi!
I am intersted in comparative education and would like to cooperate with =
anyone
interested on the list. Maybe we could write a paper on how grammar is =
taught
in several settings? Contact me if you are interested.
We do two years of required grammar in my program which is designed for =
future
English teachers in Finnish public schools.
Here is a very brief summary of what we do:
In the first year, we use Leech and Svartvik (1994) plus other material =
and do
topics like countability, number and accord, definite and indefinite, =
simple
and progressive, past simple and present perfect, etc...
In the second year we use a variety of articles because we do more theory.
Students may take additional grammar courses as electives (TG, verb =
courses,
corpus studies, etc.)
Students also must study Finnish-English and English-Finnish constrastive
studies and other courses like writing which often focus on grammar.
Our students may study taped spoken English transcriptions in courses like
linguistic change and variation in English, sociolinguistics, phonetics,
discourse analysis, intercultural communication or other courses.
I think understanding the differences between spoken language and written
language is very important but I do not consider that grammar.
One could argue that it is a type of grammar but I don't see it that way.
All the Best,
Mike
Quoting Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]>:
> Since I took the time to read most of the messages that were
> posted, I hope members of this list won't mind my usual complaint. (If
> you do, use the delete button.)
> I was struck by Rebecca's description of how she has students use
> tape recorders, and by the praise for her approach sent in by other
> members of the list. My initial reaction is that what she is doing is
> irresponsible and unethical. She may, of course, be able to prove me
> wrong, but I would like to see the evidence. I don't believe that she
> can effectively provide her students with a good analytical grasp of
> sentence structure, no matter what textbook she uses, in a single
> semester while doing what she says she does.
> I note this in the context of Janet McClaskey's article in the
> September issue of English Journal. Although the article is not about
> grammar, McCloskey notes that two of her colleagues had been teaching
> students -- for twenty years-- that "because" is a coordinating
> conjunction. When one of the teachers looked it up, she was horrified by
> what she had been doing. McClasky claims that she can raise students
> test scores by, among other things, teaching them never to use a comma
> before "because." (The teachers who had considered "because" as a
> coordinating conjunction had been teaching their students to always put
> a comma before "because." )
> I'm sure that some members of this list will want to argue the
> question of test scores, and some may even claim that "because" IS a
> coordinating conjunction. My question, however, is this:
>
> What evidence can those of you teaching teachers (and doing what Rebecca
> does) offer to show that students who pass your courses (future
> teachers) do indeed have a solid, conscious command of sentence
> structure? Among other things, will they know that a sentence such as
> "The plane crashed five miles from here, its tail pointed at the sky" is
> not a comma-splice? (Or will they mark such sentences in their students'
> writing as errors?)
>
> Having taught future teachers (an entire semester devoted to grammar),
> it seems to me that many of you are having a great party, but it is all
> dessert and no meat, potatoes, and vegetables.
>
> Just wondering.
> Ed V.
>
Dr. Mike Garant
School of Modern Language and Translation Studies Room C 353
University of Tampere
Pyynikintie 2
FIN-33014 University of Tampere
Finland
Office phone 03 215 6134
Associate Editor of Academic Echange Quarterly (AEQ):
http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=20
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:49:10 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ann Carol Pryor <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: civility in times of crisis
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thank you. The main point is that people should be able to express
themselves. The power of words allows individuals to work out their
feelings. We ought not to get "hot" over what people say, but recognize
that people are trying to work things out for themselves.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: civility in times of crisis
> To my fellow educators,
>
> Perhaps it is foolish of me to make this request, but some of the recent
> exchanges over the tragedy have become too mean spirited and uncivil to
> ignore. We are supposed to be representatives of a community of critical
> thinkers. We are supposed to be more sensitive than most to the power of
> words. We are supposed to know that once something is said, it is
difficult
> to make it un-said. We are supposed to be mindful of the value of
> diversity -- not only of ethnicity, but also of thought.
>
> Why can't we also be civil in our differences? Why can't we agree, even in
> times of upheaval, to treat one another with simple common decency?
>
> I implore everyone not to increase the anger and rage that many of us are
> feeling over the events of last Tuesday and their aftermath. If we cannot
> respond to these events with clear heads and clean tongues, then perhaps
it
> would be best that we don't respond at all. Let's be representatives of
> kindness even when there seem to be no other such representatives.
>
> If need be, count to ten before commenting on the tragedy. Count very
> slowly. Let's not descend to a level of discourse that seems hardly better
> than the thoughts of those who angered us in the first place by their
insane
> actions last week.
>
> Paul E. Doniger
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:55 PM
> Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain
>
>
> > Johanna,
> >
> > if you would like a cessation of ideological debate then don't write
> > in and say that some of us are "those who do not choose to see
> > only the good in US foreign policy." This imples that there are
> > others on this list are purposely ignorant and wrong headed about
> > U.S. policy.
> >
> > I know that most academics are skilled insinuators. It's pretty
> > hypocritical too. So don't make ideological remarks because from
> > now on I am answering each and every ideological remark, no
> > matter how snide.
> > -----------------------------------------------------
> > Sincerely, Robert Einarsson
> > please visit me at
> > http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:01:24 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Bob Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Irresponsible?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Herb Stahlke wrote:
> The question of how grammar is taught in different cultures has come up =
> several times recently, as if other cultures necessarily have it right.
As someone who teaches English grammar to both pre-service ESL teachers and
pre-service mother-tongue teachers, I have been thinking a lot about this issue.
For example, ESL teachers need to know about some of the structures of English that
mother-tongue teachers never have to worry about. A simple example is the
count/non-count noun distinction. I have never seen a dictionary written for
native speakers which provides any information about whether a noun is count or
non-count. The dozen or so non-native dictionaries of English I have all note
whether the noun is count or non-count.
The grammar structures of English which native speakers need to have some knowledge
about are those structures for which there is clear dialect variation or knowledge
of those structures are need to write standard English. Noguchi focusses on
identifying independent sentences because many of the non-standard practices that
teachers perceive in student writing are centered on punctuation.
The other way to approach the question of how different cultures teach about
language is to look at the language contests that take place in those cultures. My
wife is German. It is inconceivable that there would be spelling bees in German by
native speakers of the language. My understanding is that dictation is still a
major kind of school contest in France. This makes sense given how much
inflectional morphology in written French has no spoken realization. In fact, the
equivalent of the English simple past tense is hardly even spoken but occurs all
the time in written texts aimed at kinds of readers. Given the huge amount of time
needed to learn the writing system of Chinese, is it any wonder there are
calligraphy contests?
Herb Stalke mentioned Dick Hudson's review of how grammar is taught in other
countries. My own experience agrees with Hudson's findings: speakers of Slavic
languages know much more about the grammar of their languages than others. Without
any evidence (I know very little about the Slavic languages), I wonder if this may
be due to the extensive case system of those languages with noticeable dialect
variation from the standard of the language.
To Mike Garant, I wonder what kind of knowledge Finnish teachers have about
Finnish. Are they required to take a course on the Finnish language? What
aspects of Finnish are considered in the course?
Bob Yates, Central Missouri State University
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=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 01:18:18 +0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "S. Barret Dolph" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: White Horse English Development Center
Subject: Re: Irresponsible?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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A quick note for any who are curious. In Chinese schools
there are never grammar lessons. However, students must
learn sentence patterns. Reason?
example. In Chinese we say
Yesterday, I go store.
Today, I go store.
Tomorrow, I go store.
The pattern cannot be changed. So beginning English learners will
guess that tenses in English are unimportant but then memorize
the sentence pattern from the grammar book.
Cordially,
S. Barret Dolph
Taipei Taiwan
Bob Yates wrote:
> Herb Stahlke wrote:
>
>
>> The question of how grammar is taught in different cultures has come up =
>> several times recently, as if other cultures necessarily have it right.
>
>
> As someone who teaches English grammar to both pre-service ESL teachers and
> pre-service mother-tongue teachers, I have been thinking a lot about this issue.
>
> For example, ESL teachers need to know about some of the structures of English that
> mother-tongue teachers never have to worry about. A simple example is the
> count/non-count noun distinction. I have never seen a dictionary written for
> native speakers which provides any information about whether a noun is count or
> non-count. The dozen or so non-native dictionaries of English I have all note
> whether the noun is count or non-count.
>
> The grammar structures of English which native speakers need to have some knowledge
> about are those structures for which there is clear dialect variation or knowledge
> of those structures are need to write standard English. Noguchi focusses on
> identifying independent sentences because many of the non-standard practices that
> teachers perceive in student writing are centered on punctuation.
>
> The other way to approach the question of how different cultures teach about
> language is to look at the language contests that take place in those cultures. My
> wife is German. It is inconceivable that there would be spelling bees in German by
> native speakers of the language. My understanding is that dictation is still a
> major kind of school contest in France. This makes sense given how much
> inflectional morphology in written French has no spoken realization. In fact, the
> equivalent of the English simple past tense is hardly even spoken but occurs all
> the time in written texts aimed at kinds of readers. Given the huge amount of time
> needed to learn the writing system of Chinese, is it any wonder there are
> calligraphy contests?
>
> Herb Stalke mentioned Dick Hudson's review of how grammar is taught in other
> countries. My own experience agrees with Hudson's findings: speakers of Slavic
> languages know much more about the grammar of their languages than others. Without
> any evidence (I know very little about the Slavic languages), I wonder if this may
> be due to the extensive case system of those languages with noticeable dialect
> variation from the standard of the language.
>
> To Mike Garant, I wonder what kind of knowledge Finnish teachers have about
> Finnish. Are they required to take a course on the Finnish language? What
> aspects of Finnish are considered in the course?
>
> Bob Yates, Central Missouri State University
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:28:07 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Bauschek, Eve P" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: civility in times of crisis
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So true! Thank you, Paul Doniger!!
Regards,
Eve Bauschek
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul E. Doniger [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 8:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: civility in times of crisis
To my fellow educators,
Perhaps it is foolish of me to make this request, but some of the recent
exchanges over the tragedy have become too mean spirited and uncivil to
ignore. We are supposed to be representatives of a community of critical
thinkers. We are supposed to be more sensitive than most to the power of
words. We are supposed to know that once something is said, it is
difficult
to make it un-said. We are supposed to be mindful of the value of
diversity -- not only of ethnicity, but also of thought.
Why can't we also be civil in our differences? Why can't we agree, even
in
times of upheaval, to treat one another with simple common decency?
I implore everyone not to increase the anger and rage that many of us
are
feeling over the events of last Tuesday and their aftermath. If we
cannot
respond to these events with clear heads and clean tongues, then perhaps
it
would be best that we don't respond at all. Let's be representatives of
kindness even when there seem to be no other such representatives.
If need be, count to ten before commenting on the tragedy. Count very
slowly. Let's not descend to a level of discourse that seems hardly
better
than the thoughts of those who angered us in the first place by their
insane
actions last week.
Paul E. Doniger
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain
> Johanna,
>
> if you would like a cessation of ideological debate then don't write
> in and say that some of us are "those who do not choose to see
> only the good in US foreign policy." This imples that there are
> others on this list are purposely ignorant and wrong headed about
> U.S. policy.
>
> I know that most academics are skilled insinuators. It's pretty
> hypocritical too. So don't make ideological remarks because from
> now on I am answering each and every ideological remark, no
> matter how snide.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Sincerely, Robert Einarsson
> please visit me at
> http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:10:56 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Haussamen, Brock" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Connections
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I've been wondering whether and how the terrorist crisis connects in any
ways to ATEG and the discussions of teaching grammar. Our lives take place
in a different context now. Will our discussions change also?
I don't know, but I think so. Language is so central, grammar is not just
about English, and English itself is global. Perhaps in the years
ahead--years, for most wars last longer than people expect--the issues
surrounding language diversity vs. Standard English will intensify. Perhaps
the Arabic and Farsi languages and grammar will be of interest to more
people (although I don't remember very broad interest in Russian during the
cold war). We will no doubt see more propaganda than we usually do and have
more to say about its semantic tricks. And probably the phenomenon of
global English(es) and grammar will attract more attention than now.
We will see. On the whole I think that the discussion of teaching grammar
will not be an insignificant place to be in the new world.
Brock Haussamen
Brock Haussamen
English Department
Raritan Valley Community College
[log in to unmask]
phone: 908-526-1200, ext. 8307
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:52:13 -0300
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: greer white <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: civility in times of crisis
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Thank you, Paul. You have said what needed to be said.
"Paul E. Doniger" wrote:
> To my fellow educators,
>
> Perhaps it is foolish of me to make this request, but some of the recent
> exchanges over the tragedy have become too mean spirited and uncivil to
> ignore. We are supposed to be representatives of a community of critical
> thinkers. We are supposed to be more sensitive than most to the power of
> words. We are supposed to know that once something is said, it is difficult
> to make it un-said. We are supposed to be mindful of the value of
> diversity -- not only of ethnicity, but also of thought.
>
> Why can't we also be civil in our differences? Why can't we agree, even in
> times of upheaval, to treat one another with simple common decency?
>
> I implore everyone not to increase the anger and rage that many of us are
> feeling over the events of last Tuesday and their aftermath. If we cannot
> respond to these events with clear heads and clean tongues, then perhaps it
> would be best that we don't respond at all. Let's be representatives of
> kindness even when there seem to be no other such representatives.
>
> If need be, count to ten before commenting on the tragedy. Count very
> slowly. Let's not descend to a level of discourse that seems hardly better
> than the thoughts of those who angered us in the first place by their insane
> actions last week.
>
> Paul E. Doniger
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:55 PM
> Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain
>
> > Johanna,
> >
> > if you would like a cessation of ideological debate then don't write
> > in and say that some of us are "those who do not choose to see
> > only the good in US foreign policy." This imples that there are
> > others on this list are purposely ignorant and wrong headed about
> > U.S. policy.
> >
> > I know that most academics are skilled insinuators. It's pretty
> > hypocritical too. So don't make ideological remarks because from
> > now on I am answering each and every ideological remark, no
> > matter how snide.
> > -----------------------------------------------------
> > Sincerely, Robert Einarsson
> > please visit me at
> > http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:54:25 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Rabinowitz, Jennifer" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: civility in times of crisis
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Great thoughts beautifully put. Thank you for taking the time to write on
the critical importance of civility in public discourse.
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul E. Doniger [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 9:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: civility in times of crisis
To my fellow educators,
Perhaps it is foolish of me to make this request, but some of the recent
exchanges over the tragedy have become too mean spirited and uncivil to
ignore. We are supposed to be representatives of a community of critical
thinkers. We are supposed to be more sensitive than most to the power of
words. We are supposed to know that once something is said, it is difficult
to make it un-said. We are supposed to be mindful of the value of
diversity -- not only of ethnicity, but also of thought.
Why can't we also be civil in our differences? Why can't we agree, even in
times of upheaval, to treat one another with simple common decency?
I implore everyone not to increase the anger and rage that many of us are
feeling over the events of last Tuesday and their aftermath. If we cannot
respond to these events with clear heads and clean tongues, then perhaps it
would be best that we don't respond at all. Let's be representatives of
kindness even when there seem to be no other such representatives.
If need be, count to ten before commenting on the tragedy. Count very
slowly. Let's not descend to a level of discourse that seems hardly better
than the thoughts of those who angered us in the first place by their insane
actions last week.
Paul E. Doniger
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain
> Johanna,
>
> if you would like a cessation of ideological debate then don't write
> in and say that some of us are "those who do not choose to see
> only the good in US foreign policy." This imples that there are
> others on this list are purposely ignorant and wrong headed about
> U.S. policy.
>
> I know that most academics are skilled insinuators. It's pretty
> hypocritical too. So don't make ideological remarks because from
> now on I am answering each and every ideological remark, no
> matter how snide.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Sincerely, Robert Einarsson
> please visit me at
> http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:34:18 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Geoff Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Connections
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Brock - Good question, one that I've been trying to address in my class.
In fact, the event is highly suited to a discussion of grammar because it
is grammar that we use to create meaning. Specifically, instead of the 8
parts of speech, I have the students address what we have come to call the
"six parts of meaning" - who, what, why, where, when, and how (thanks,
journalists!). If they can answer these questions when they write, they're
good writers; if they can discern the answers when they read, they're good
readers.
The way that they answer the questions is with grammatical constructions -
primarily, adverbs, adjectives, prepositions, and dependent clauses, each
building the level of specificity with which the writer answers the basic
question.
Therefore, a simplistic "They attacked the WTC." leaves out a lot of
meaning. Who is "they" (requires an understanding of world-wide
terrorism)? What is the WTC (as both a structure and as a symbol)? Why
would "they" attack it (requires an understanding of the Middle East
conflict, etc.)? Where did they attack and when did they attack it
(requires an examination of the duration of the terrorists training in the
US as well as their other attacks on the US overseas prior to this one).
How did they attack (requires understanding of the process of terrorism -
recruiting, training, etc.).
In other words, you can't understand the situation without grammar!
Geoff Layotn
At 04:10 PM 9/18/01 -0400, you wrote:
>I've been wondering whether and how the terrorist crisis connects in any
>ways to ATEG and the discussions of teaching grammar. Our lives take place
>in a different context now. Will our discussions change also?
>
>I don't know, but I think so. Language is so central, grammar is not just
>about English, and English itself is global. Perhaps in the years
>ahead--years, for most wars last longer than people expect--the issues
>surrounding language diversity vs. Standard English will intensify. Perhaps
>the Arabic and Farsi languages and grammar will be of interest to more
>people (although I don't remember very broad interest in Russian during the
>cold war). We will no doubt see more propaganda than we usually do and have
>more to say about its semantic tricks. And probably the phenomenon of
>global English(es) and grammar will attract more attention than now.
>
>We will see. On the whole I think that the discussion of teaching grammar
>will not be an insignificant place to be in the new world.
>
>Brock Haussamen
>
>
>Brock Haussamen
>English Department
>Raritan Valley Community College
>[log in to unmask]
>phone: 908-526-1200, ext. 8307
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:48:28 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Johanna Rubba <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Civility in Public Discourse
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Thanks to Paul Doniger for posting my exact sentiments.
The reason I asked for cessation of _ideological_ debate (not expression
of feelings of grief, horror, etc.) was, I suppose, the uncivil tone of
Robert Einarsson's first posting on this topic. I didn't want to see
mutual flaming happening.
I'm sorry if I hypocritically hid my ideological viewpoint in my
riposte. I was trying to exemplify what could be considered offensive or
at least bothersome about the posting, as absolutes, of opinions that
others would disagree with. I should have been more neutral. I should
think that anyone would realize that there might be members of the list
who would disagree strongly with statements such as were made in that
original posting, and would be offended by them. There _are_ people in
our midst at every point along the political spectrum, and each person
has a right to their beliefs. As Paul so eloqently wrote, we can
disagree without being disrespectful. It may be extra hard when extreme
events lead us to extreme feelings. That's exactly the time that the
most restraint is called for.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics
English Department, California Polytechnic State University
One Grand Avenue • San Luis Obispo, CA 93407
Tel. (805)-756-2184 • Fax: (805)-756-6374 • Dept. Phone. 756-2596
• E-mail: [log in to unmask] • Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:11:45 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Bob Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Issues of language
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The events of the past week provide all kinds of interesting examples of how
important it is to use the right words.
I just saw Bush in a joint interview with Chirac, President of France. Chirac said
clearly that he would not use the word "war" to describe the conflict we are now
in. It is interesting that Bush didn't use it either. Why might some people avoid
the term war?
The best example of word choice is crusade. Apparently, Bush recently talked about
the need for a "crusade" against those how carried out the events of September 11.
Almost immediately Muslim countries in the Middle East reacted against that
formulation. If I were teaching the right course, I might want to bring up whether
"crusade" is the appropriate word to describe the struggle we are in. What is its
original meaning? Is the avoidance of crusade in these circumstances a kind of
"political correctness"? Can Americans use the word crusade to describe the
campaign against terrorism?
It might be interesting to consider whether it is appropriate for the leader of the
US to say we want Ben Ladin "dead or alive."
Of course, there are wonderful examples of speeches and interviews with Bush,
Powell, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Guiliani, etc. to consider. What did these people say
about the events? Which of these people seemed to inspire the most confidence?
Why? All these people have been saying about the same things, but some seemed more
successful than others. What were the characteristics of the language that was
used which seemed to inspire more confidence?
All of these are wonderful question about language which the tragic events of the
past week raise.
Bob Yates, Central Missouri State University
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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:42:51 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Grant MacEwan College
Subject: Civility in Public Discourse
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There is and has been a consistent anti-American propaganda
campaign going on in academia for forty years. Taken on the
gigantic level of the media and academia industries, it amounts to
a campaign-scale attack on the US. It has most likely contributed
to setting an intellectual climate in which anti-American terrorism is
nourished.
The anti-American rhetoric on university campuses is far, far
beyond simple criticism and debate over various positions taken by
the US government. It is simply contemptuous, constant slander
which may serve to nourish anti-American terrorism.
Therefore, it does not matter to me if certain political perspectives
would be offended with my first posting. I posted it because I
meant what I was saying:
there is and has been anti-American rhetoric on university
campuses, almost on the scale of a propaganda campaign; it has
been going on for forty years, and it has fostered a climate which is
nourishing to anti-American terrorism.
In light of such a serious idea in my original posting, it is odd that
the argument has now shifted to the rules of academic posting.
May I politely suggest that if you had found fault with my content
we would not now be discussing Civility in Public Discourse.
Now you are arguing the general right that I have to speak on
certain topics and in certain tones of voice. Now the topic is
Civility in Public Discourse when what it started with was leftist-
Stalinist propaganda in academia.
Let's reverse the perspective: to my knowledge individuals in
academia have never before gone out of their way to show Civility to
more right-of-center feelings.
You hear contemptuous remarks intertwined with academic
discourse _all the time,_ even when they are irrelevant to the
nature of the topic. Academics are _constantly_ insulting the right-
of -center perspective. It's a running joke with them. Even little pro-
Clinton grammar examples have been posted here, just to strike an
aggravating note.
I do not agree that civility in academic discourse is the prime value.
I do not forefit the right to speak disrespectfully. I do not care
about people's feelings.
Civility means nothing whatsoever to me in comparison to the
attack on the WTC and the feelings and concerns which I have to
express upon it.
-----------------------------------------------------
Sincerely, Robert Einarsson
please visit me at
http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb
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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:03:28 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Bob Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Civility in Public Discourse
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In 1917 when the US declared war on Germany, the speaking of German in public and
the teaching of German stopped over night. I live in a part of the US which were
bilingual communities before 1917. Now, only the oldest members of that community
retain any German of their parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents.
Immediately after December 7, 1941, Japanese-American were rounded up and sent off
to camps for the duration of the war.
The New York Time's today is reporting two people dead who seemed to be Muslim.
Given this history and the need to be united, I think it is incumbent upon all of
us remain civil in how we think about the awful events of September 11. Let me
respectively submit that the following does not help anyone:
Robert Einarsson wrote:
> I do not forfeit the right to speak disrespectfully. I do not care
> about people's feelings.
> Civility means nothing whatsoever to me in comparison to the
> attack on the WTC and the feelings and concerns which I have to
> express upon it.
Fortunately, we live in a part of the world in which this is still the case.
However, let me share with everyone the following scream by Ann Coulter, one of the
shrillest critics of Bill Clinton, in her column about Barbara Olson, a passenger
on the plane that hit the Pentagon.
We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and
convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about
locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We
carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war.
And this is war.
I am appalled that someone who regularly appears on American television and who
writes for one of the respected journals of political opinion is not ashamed to
share such inflammatory ideas with the rest of the world. Go here for the entire
column: http://www.nationalreview.com/coulter/coulter091301.shtml
The people who planned and committed those horrendous acts on September 11th win if
no one speaks out against the incivility of Ann Coulter's cry for extermination.
Bob Yates
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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:00:11 EDT
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Gretchen Lee <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: A Question of Usage - Reinhold
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In a message dated 9/17/2001 5:43:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
<< Sauds >>
Reinhold,
I have seen most references to people from Saudi Arabia as "Saudis," and many
references to people from Afghanistan as "Afghans." (I always thought that
Afghans were either blankets or hounds!)
Do you know if there a preferred way of referencing these two groups-
Sauds/Saudis or Afghans/Afghanis? Or, is it just another tag we have hung on
an ethnic group? (I have such information overload that I can't face the
research!)
Thanks,
Gretchen in San Jose
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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:15:54 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: The Total Tutor
Subject: Re: Issues of language
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Bob Yates writes:
> The events of the past week provide all kinds of interesting examples of
how
> important it is to use the right words.
>
> I just saw Bush in a joint interview with Chirac, President of France.
Chirac said
> clearly that he would not use the word "war" to describe the conflict we
are now
> in. It is interesting that Bush didn't use it either. Why might some
people avoid
> the term war?
>
> The best example of word choice is crusade. Apparently, Bush recently
talked about
> the need for a "crusade" against those how carried out the events of
September 11.
> Almost immediately Muslim countries in the Middle East reacted against
that
> formulation. If I were teaching the right course, I might want to bring
up whether
> "crusade" is the appropriate word to describe the struggle we are in.
What is its
> original meaning?
I'm not sure that Bush would have known the original meaning , but it comes
from an Old French word that, I believe, means "to bear the cross." I
suppose it has more to do with carrying the cross to the holy land than with
any more modern metaphorical interpretation of "bearing the cross." It's
easy to see why Muslims would object more to a crusade than to a war.
Paul E. Doniger
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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:22:26 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Herb Stahlke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Civility in Public Discourse
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I have two disparate comments to make on this. One concerns the partial =
myth of German persecution during WWI. Certainly there was some. But I =
interviewed my 95-year-old mother in preparation for an assignment I give =
some of my classes. They have to do a language biography, interviewing an =
older family member about their memories of language experience, whether a =
different language or a different dialect. My mother, who was born into a =
German-speaking community in Elmore, OH, in 1906, moved to Hamtramck, MI, =
in 1912 where my grandfather became pastor of the local Lutheran church, =
also German speaking. In the neighborhood were German, Hungarian, and =
Russian immigrant families. The mothers, largely homemakers, spoke mostly =
their native languages. The fathers needed English for employment and =
spoke English at work and the NL at home. The children spoke some English =
and some of the other languages and most were at least to some degree =
multilingual. I remember my mother speaking Hungarian with post-WWII =
displaced persons. Many of the children went to the Lutheran parochial =
school, where instruction in the morning was in German and in the =
afternoon in English. The Hungarian and Russian children all learned both =
German and English in school, throughout WWI. When the armistice was =
announced, she remembers the entire school, children and teachers, =
gathering in a circle around the US flag in front of the school and =
singing "Nun danket alle Gott" (Now thank we all our God), in German, of =
course. My own family stopped speaking German at home about the time I =
was born in 1942, but that's another story. Yes, there was certainly some =
bias against Germans, but it wasn't universal.
The other matter is Robert Einarsson's recent postings. I've read some of =
his scholarly work and his postings on many of the issues we discuss on =
this list, and I have a lot of respect for him as a professional. I look =
forward to reading more of his insightful linguistic and pedagogical =
thoughts. However, he has also convinced me recently that I would not =
choose to carry on a political conversation with him because it likely =
wouldn't go anywhere. It's not that I disagree with him or that I object =
to his passion. Rather, it's that he's shown us an area in which he is =
not interested in discussion. He doesn't care what others think on those =
matters. I'm sorry that's that case, but it doesn't alter the quality of =
his linguistics.
While I value the discussion we've been having on current events, perhaps =
it IS time we returned to what we normally do.
Herb Stahlke
<<< [log in to unmask] 9/18 8:07p >>>
In 1917 when the US declared war on Germany, the speaking of German in =
public and
the teaching of German stopped over night. I live in a part of the US =
which were
bilingual communities before 1917. Now, only the oldest members of that =
community
retain any German of their parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents.
Immediately after December 7, 1941, Japanese-American were rounded up and =
sent off
to camps for the duration of the war.
The New York Time's today is reporting two people dead who seemed to be =
Muslim.
Given this history and the need to be united, I think it is incumbent =
upon all of
us remain civil in how we think about the awful events of September 11. =
Let me
respectively submit that the following does not help anyone:
Robert Einarsson wrote:
> I do not forfeit the right to speak disrespectfully. I do not care
> about people's feelings.
> Civility means nothing whatsoever to me in comparison to the
> attack on the WTC and the feelings and concerns which I have to
> express upon it.
Fortunately, we live in a part of the world in which this is still the =
case.
However, let me share with everyone the following scream by Ann Coulter, =
one of the
shrillest critics of Bill Clinton, in her column about Barbara Olson, a =
passenger
on the plane that hit the Pentagon.
We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and
convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about
locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We
carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war.
And this is war.
I am appalled that someone who regularly appears on American television =
and who
writes for one of the respected journals of political opinion is not =
ashamed to
share such inflammatory ideas with the rest of the world. Go here for the =
entire
column: http://www.nationalreview.com/coulter/coulter091301.shtml
The people who planned and committed those horrendous acts on September =
11th win if
no one speaks out against the incivility of Ann Coulter's cry for =
extermination.
Bob Yates
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at:
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=20
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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:50:36 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Herb Stahlke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A Question of Usage - Reinhold
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According to an old Afghani friend of mine, it's Afghani. And it's Saudi. =
Or did I miss the tongue in cheek?
Herb
<<< [log in to unmask] 9/18 10:36p >>>
In a message dated 9/17/2001 5:43:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
<< Sauds >>
Reinhold,
I have seen most references to people from Saudi Arabia as "Saudis," and =
many
references to people from Afghanistan as "Afghans." (I always thought =
that
Afghans were either blankets or hounds!)
Do you know if there a preferred way of referencing these two groups-
Sauds/Saudis or Afghans/Afghanis? Or, is it just another tag we have hung =
on
an ethnic group? (I have such information overload that I can't face the
research!)
Thanks,
Gretchen in San Jose
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=20
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Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 02:10:51 EDT
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Gretchen Lee <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A Question of Usage - Reinhold
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In a message dated 9/18/2001 9:09:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
<< According to an old Afghani friend of mine, it's Afghani. And it's Saudi.
Or did I miss the tongue in cheek? >>
Herb,
No, the inquiry is in earnest. I have mostly heard Saudi, but Reinhold is
very knowledgeable about Islam and Islamic cultures. We have had several
conversations about it. I was just checking because he used "Sauds," and I
was curious if it was a typo or if I were misinformed.
Afghani/Afghan seem to be interchangeable, and I think that Afghani is more
correct. However, I heard several reports today about "Afghan rebels," and I
would hate to offend anyone these days if that is the accepted usage.
As I said, I am overloaded with all I am trying to absorb, and I was looking
for advice. Thanks!
Gretchen in San Jose
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Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:31:56 +0300
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Mikel Garant <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Civility in Public Discourse
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Hi all!
I think it is bad that they have attacked and kiled Muslims in the US. I'm
sure quite a few Muslims died in the WTC.
The Americanization of German communities cannot be blamed on the histeria in
1917. Why don't Polish-Americans whose great-grandparents immigrated in 1900
all speak Polish? It is because they assimilated. Not because they were
forced. It was their dream - to become AMERICAN. Maybe that sounds like flag
waving but it was true. Usually, immigrants and 1st generation kids try to be
as American as possible because they don't want to stand out. You can see this
in movies like the Godfather, Avalon or other films. Oscar Handlin's work on
immigration describes this. 3rd and 4th generation (the grandkids or great-
grandkids) may often get interested in their ethnic identity and go to night
school to learn Polish, Finnish, German, Serbo-Croation etc.
I knew an old lady in Milwaukee who said her German-American barber flew a Nazi
flag in his shop before December 7, 1941. He had to know what was going on in
the Reich at the time in terms of oppresion.
I feel bad about the Japanese camps in the US in WWII but the goal of the
Japanese education system from late Meiji (around 1890) until the end on WWII
was to brainwash everyone to serve the Emperor. Revisionist leave out the
numbers of Japanese who returned home to use their English to serve the Emperor
and work for 'Naimusho', the Japanese KGB from that period. I lived in Japan
for 3.5 years and discussed this with my friends and co-workers. It isn't that
simple.
Big questions need detailed study.
Just my 2 cents, Mike
Quoting Bob Yates <[log in to unmask]>:
> In 1917 when the US declared war on Germany, the speaking of German in
> public and
> the teaching of German stopped over night. I live in a part of the US
> which were
> bilingual communities before 1917. Now, only the oldest members of that
> community
> retain any German of their parents, grandparents, and
> great-grandparents.
>
> Immediately after December 7, 1941, Japanese-American were rounded up
> and sent off
> to camps for the duration of the war.
>
> The New York Time's today is reporting two people dead who seemed to be
> Muslim.
>
> Given this history and the need to be united, I think it is incumbent
> upon all of
> us remain civil in how we think about the awful events of September 11.
> Let me
> respectively submit that the following does not help anyone:
>
> Robert Einarsson wrote:
>
> > I do not forfeit the right to speak disrespectfully. I do not care
> > about people's feelings.
>
> > Civility means nothing whatsoever to me in comparison to the
> > attack on the WTC and the feelings and concerns which I have to
> > express upon it.
>
>
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Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:08:05 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Rebecca Wheeler <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Irresponsible?
Comments: To: Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]>
On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 04:26:33 -0400, Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> I was struck by Rebecca's description of how she has students use
>tape recorders, and by the praise for her approach sent in by other
>members of the list. My initial reaction is that what she is doing is
>irresponsible and unethical. She may, of course, be able to prove me
>wrong, but I would like to see the evidence. I don't believe that she
>can effectively provide her students with a good analytical grasp of
>sentence structure, no matter what textbook she uses, in a single
>semester while doing what she says she does.
Vavra appears to conflate a number of issues and make a number of
assumptions. Upon this foundation of ignorance he then hurls accusations
of "irresponsible and unethical" pedagogy. I am surprised he has not
previously been sued for such verbal behavior.
Response:
1) The course I mentioned, Lanugage & Teaching, in which students tape
record language utterance and engage in active discovery learning of
grammatical structure, is one course in a two-course sequence: Engl. 311,
Language & Teaching; and Engl. 430, Advanced Grammar.
In Advanced Grammar, I spend a full semester providing students a good
analytical grasp of sentence structure. As anyone will know who has read my
previous posts, I use Max Morenberg's DOING GRAMMAR in my English structure
course.
Thus, Language & Teaching and Advanced Grammar play off of each other.
Where the students learn English structure in Advanced Grammar, they learn
contrastive analysis of language variation as applied to their daily lives
in Language & Teaching. Perhaps more importantly, it is here that they
confront most deeply their prejudices, assumptions, and stereotypes about
issues of "proper grammar," "good English," "slang," and "broken English,"
etc.
2) Gretchen's initial post did not ask what to do to teach English
structure. She asked for an alternative to teaching the 8 parts of speech.
Note that teaching the 8 parts of speech at the elementary level bears no
resemblance to teaching "a good analytical grasp of sentence structure."
What I gave her was an alternative to teaching the 8 notionally-based parts
of speech since children appear, predictably, bored to tears with a tool
that does them little practical good.
3) Gretchen did not ask what to teach in a single semester period. My
answer presupposed no such restriction. Thus, while it is indeed untested,
I suspect that students engaging in such life-long (K - 16) discovery
learning of language structure would indeed emerge with a "strong
analytical grasp of sentence structure." Nobody ever claimed such mastery
would emerge after one semester.
What I did suggest would emerge after one semester is a heightened student
awareness of that language varieties (spoken, written, regional, ethnic),
display contrastive structure, all of which is internally coherent and
regular. This knowledge then goes to challenge their erroneous, and
damaging presumption that there is one and only one "proper English" and
that all others are flawed, imperfect renditions of the Standard. Students
emerge from Language & Teaching understanding at a deep and personal level
that the structure of language varies by time, place, audience and
communicative purpose, knowledge which they then are able to use with their
students to help students code-switch between language varieties in their
speech and writing.
In concert with an English structure course (Advanced Grammar), this proves
a powerful educational experience.
Rebecca
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Rebecca S. Wheeler, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Linguistics
Department of English
1 University Place
Christopher Newport University
Newport News, VA 23606-2998
Telephone: 757-594-8891
Fax: 757-594-8870
Rebecca S. Wheeler is Editor of Syntax in the Schools, the quarterly
journal of the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar (ATEG), an
assembly of the National Council of Teachers of English (NCTE).
www.ateg.org.
Research Interests:
* dialects and language varieties in the schools,
* reducing the achievement gap between inner city minority children and
middle class children,
* discovery learning of grammar in the classroom
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:30:00 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Reinhold Schlieper <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Embry-Riddle University
Subject: Re: Civility in Public Discourse
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My country--right or wrong! When right to be kept right, and when wrong
to be got right. [Carl Schurz] Sometimes the attempt to getting the
country right and the analysis when she is wrong may look to some like
an effort to be anti-American. Not so, I'd say. What makes America
different than many another is her insistence on letting people speak
their minds. If anything is un-American, it would be the categoric
repression of one group of voices.
==Reinhold
Robert Einarsson wrote:
>
> There is and has been a consistent anti-American propaganda
> campaign going on in academia for forty years. Taken on the
> gigantic level of the media and academia industries, it amounts to
> a campaign-scale attack on the US. It has most likely contributed
> to setting an intellectual climate in which anti-American terrorism is
> nourished.
>
> The anti-American rhetoric on university campuses is far, far
> beyond simple criticism and debate over various positions taken by
> the US government. It is simply contemptuous, constant slander
> which may serve to nourish anti-American terrorism.
>
> Therefore, it does not matter to me if certain political perspectives
> would be offended with my first posting. I posted it because I
> meant what I was saying:
>
> there is and has been anti-American rhetoric on university
> campuses, almost on the scale of a propaganda campaign; it has
> been going on for forty years, and it has fostered a climate which is
> nourishing to anti-American terrorism.
>
> In light of such a serious idea in my original posting, it is odd that
> the argument has now shifted to the rules of academic posting.
>
> May I politely suggest that if you had found fault with my content
> we would not now be discussing Civility in Public Discourse.
>
> Now you are arguing the general right that I have to speak on
> certain topics and in certain tones of voice. Now the topic is
> Civility in Public Discourse when what it started with was leftist-
> Stalinist propaganda in academia.
>
> Let's reverse the perspective: to my knowledge individuals in
> academia have never before gone out of their way to show Civility to
> more right-of-center feelings.
>
> You hear contemptuous remarks intertwined with academic
> discourse _all the time,_ even when they are irrelevant to the
> nature of the topic. Academics are _constantly_ insulting the right-
> of -center perspective. It's a running joke with them. Even little pro-
> Clinton grammar examples have been posted here, just to strike an
> aggravating note.
>
> I do not agree that civility in academic discourse is the prime value.
>
> I do not forefit the right to speak disrespectfully. I do not care
> about people's feelings.
>
> Civility means nothing whatsoever to me in comparison to the
> attack on the WTC and the feelings and concerns which I have to
> express upon it.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Sincerely, Robert Einarsson
> please visit me at
> http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:33:36 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Reinhold Schlieper <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Embry-Riddle University
Subject: Re: A Question of Usage - Reinhold
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Al-Saud is the clan name of the ruling family. I suggest not that all
Saudis have problems with balancing religion and secular interests; I
suggest that the ruling Sauds have such problems. I think Crown Prince
Adbdullah's prime task has been to deal with the religious element in
the country while King Fahad [Al-Saud] may come across as more the
open-minded secular statesman--which is not a sexist term for Saudi
Arabia <g>.
==Best, Reinhold
Gretchen Lee wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/17/2001 5:43:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
> << Sauds >>
>
> Reinhold,
>
> I have seen most references to people from Saudi Arabia as "Saudis," and many
> references to people from Afghanistan as "Afghans." (I always thought that
> Afghans were either blankets or hounds!)
>
> Do you know if there a preferred way of referencing these two groups-
> Sauds/Saudis or Afghans/Afghanis? Or, is it just another tag we have hung on
> an ethnic group? (I have such information overload that I can't face the
> research!)
>
> Thanks,
> Gretchen in San Jose
> [log in to unmask]
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:44:57 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Sheila Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A Question of Usage - Reinhold
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Please remove my email address from your email list, and please ask the other folks to do the same. God Bless America!
Thanks.
-----Original Message-----
From: Reinhold Schlieper [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 7:34 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: A Question of Usage - Reinhold
Al-Saud is the clan name of the ruling family. I suggest not that all
Saudis have problems with balancing religion and secular interests; I
suggest that the ruling Sauds have such problems. I think Crown Prince
Adbdullah's prime task has been to deal with the religious element in
the country while King Fahad [Al-Saud] may come across as more the
open-minded secular statesman--which is not a sexist term for Saudi
Arabia <g>.
==Best, Reinhold
Gretchen Lee wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/17/2001 5:43:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
> << Sauds >>
>
> Reinhold,
>
> I have seen most references to people from Saudi Arabia as "Saudis," and many
> references to people from Afghanistan as "Afghans." (I always thought that
> Afghans were either blankets or hounds!)
>
> Do you know if there a preferred way of referencing these two groups-
> Sauds/Saudis or Afghans/Afghanis? Or, is it just another tag we have hung on
> an ethnic group? (I have such information overload that I can't face the
> research!)
>
> Thanks,
> Gretchen in San Jose
> [log in to unmask]
>
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Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:09:17 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Civility in Public Discourse
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We must love them both - those whose opinions we share and
those whose opinions we reject. For both have labored in
the search for truth, and both have helped us in the
finding of it.
--St. Thomas Aquinas
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Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 22:58:26 +0300
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A Question of Usage - Reinhold
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Hello Reinhold,
Wednesday, September 19, 2001, 6:33:36 PM, you wrote:
RS> Al-Saud is the clan name of the ruling family.
The fastidious spell this "Aal Saud", not "Al-Saud". While the
distinction is clear in the Arabic spelling, it is easily lost in
English transliteration. The first, "Aal", is used to designate people
who share a common ancestor, in this case, a man named Saud. Bedouin
Arabs do not have surnames but have since the remote past, identified
themselves by referring to a prominent ancestor. The progeny of the
late King Faisal, while being members of the Aal Saud, often refer to
themselves as Aal Faisal.
"Aal" should not be confused with "al-" which is merely the definite
article, a common component in quite a few Arabic personal names,
usually male.
The Aal Saud dynasty is named for a remote ancestor Muhammad ibn Saud,
founder of the first Saudi state, who died in the late 18th century,
and not for King Abdul Aziz ibn Saud, the father of the present king.
I have never heard Saudis refer to themselves as "Sauds".
Omar
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Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:40:31 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Johanna Rubba <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Issues of language
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The media have been covering issues of language along with everything
else related to this disaster. The LA Times has had two pieces, one by
Geoffrey Nunberg and one by a staff writer interviewing several language
specialists (including the Atlantic Monthly's Barbara Walraff). Issues
of word usage, tone, hesitation, etc. are discussed. I imagine you could
access these via the LA Times website. Maybe some fellow listers could
let us know of similar reports that they know of. There have also been
electronic media reports, of course, and the only details I recall from
these are notes that Colin Powell was judged by one communications
expert to be the most effective of the government's spokespeople, while
the President was going a little too far in the direction of aggression
while at the same time sounding uncomfortable and not terribly fluent.
(These aren't my own judgments, just what I heard.)
The use of 'crusade' was quite unfortunate, from my viewpoint. Europeans
and Americans don't realize how much meaning the ancient conflict
between Christian Europe and the Islamic countries still has for
residents of the Arab world. It is a very salient part of their
appreciation of their own history and culture. From my personal
experience with Muslims and Arabs (including 4 years living in a
Muslim/Arab country), such a remark would immediately (rightly or
wrongly) be interpreted as a resurrection of that ancient conflict,
indicating the 'West's' desire to 'take back' territory from the Islamic
world and setting the conflict up as a religious conflict, rather than a
political one. I don't know what Bush's intentions were in using the
word, but it is a highly inflammatory word in Muslim countries,
especially in the Arab portion of the Muslim world (by which I mean
parts of the world in which the majority of residents or very
substantial portions of the population are Muslims who also perceive
themselves as Arabs).
Whether avoidance of the word would constitute 'political correctness'
or not is less important to me than its practical inflammatory value.
Bush's use of the word was the first and main headline on the BBC's
headline news one or two evenings this week, showing the BBC's
understanding of its rhetorical value for the Arab/Muslim audience. My
reason to avoid it wouldn't be political correctness, but a desire to
avoid inflaming the situation further (of course, this might have been
Bush's intention). I don't know if Bush was informed of the practical
consequences of using this word.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics
English Department, California Polytechnic State University
One Grand Avenue • San Luis Obispo, CA 93407
Tel. (805)-756-2184 • Fax: (805)-756-6374 • Dept. Phone. 756-2596
• E-mail: [log in to unmask] • Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
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Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:49:53 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "Haussamen, Brock" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Issues of language
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I think these language questions show us how difficult and puzzling the
situation is.
When a violent act is committed and you try to figure out who did it, try to
assemble evidence, and try to catch the people, then that is the realm of
crime and law. But here catching and punishing a few people will clearly
not solve the problem for the future.
When a violent act is committed and you asssemble armed forces and head
toward another country and fight that country until they surrender, that is
the realm of war. But that doesn't fit here either because there is no
country and the notion that an enemy government here could formally
"surrender" doesn't make sense.
When you go to another part of the world and try to convert people to your
way of believing and punish them if they don't convert, that, at least in a
general way, is a crusade. But that concept doesn't fit either, in part
because I don't think we even want to convert the mid-east; we just want
terrorists to stop being terrorists.
I think these terms fail to work partly because the conflict is larger than
just America vs. terrorists. The best description I have read about is in
Benjamin Barber's book a few years ago, "Jihad vs. McWorld." The growing
conflict between traditional, religious, local cultures with a violent
potential to them on the one hand, and modern international corporatism,
epitomized by but not limited to America. We don't have the term for
methodically violent conflict between these two aspects of global culture.
Brock Haussamen
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Yates [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 8:12 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Issues of language
The events of the past week provide all kinds of interesting examples of how
important it is to use the right words.
I just saw Bush in a joint interview with Chirac, President of France.
Chirac said
clearly that he would not use the word "war" to describe the conflict we are
now
in. It is interesting that Bush didn't use it either. Why might some people
avoid
the term war?
The best example of word choice is crusade. Apparently, Bush recently
talked about
the need for a "crusade" against those how carried out the events of
September 11.
Almost immediately Muslim countries in the Middle East reacted against that
formulation. If I were teaching the right course, I might want to bring up
whether
"crusade" is the appropriate word to describe the struggle we are in. What
is its
original meaning? Is the avoidance of crusade in these circumstances a kind
of
"political correctness"? Can Americans use the word crusade to describe the
campaign against terrorism?
It might be interesting to consider whether it is appropriate for the leader
of the
US to say we want Ben Ladin "dead or alive."
Of course, there are wonderful examples of speeches and interviews with
Bush,
Powell, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Guiliani, etc. to consider. What did these people
say
about the events? Which of these people seemed to inspire the most
confidence?
Why? All these people have been saying about the same things, but some
seemed more
successful than others. What were the characteristics of the language that
was
used which seemed to inspire more confidence?
All of these are wonderful question about language which the tragic events
of the
past week raise.
Bob Yates, Central Missouri State University
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Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:53:37 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: The Total Tutor
Subject: Re: Civility in Public Discourse
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Let me, one last time, explain my position:
My comments were not a criticism of anyone's point of view. My comments were
not an expression of hatred. My comments were merely a request for common
decency in the discourse. I really don't see how that could be objectionable
or misunderstood. I have been very careful NOT to express my opinion on this
list regarding the recent tragedy.
I will remain silent regarding this issue from now on.
Paul E. Doniger
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: Civility in Public Discourse
> We must love them both - those whose opinions we share and
>
> those whose opinions we reject. For both have labored in
>
> the search for truth, and both have helped us in the
>
> finding of it.
>
> --St. Thomas Aquinas
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
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>
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Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:06:53 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Johanna Rubba <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Afghan/i
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I am told by an Afghan member of our faculty that the correct term, as
far as it goes, is 'Afghan', not 'Afghani'. 'Afghani' is the name of the currency.
At the same time, she informs me that there are 24 distinct tribal
groups, and that the name 'Afghan' is the name of a former ruling tribe
which has been generalized to the country as a whole (to the chagrin of
some non-Afghan tribespeople).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics
English Department, California Polytechnic State University
One Grand Avenue • San Luis Obispo, CA 93407
Tel. (805)-756-2184 • Fax: (805)-756-6374 • Dept. Phone. 756-2596
• E-mail: [log in to unmask] • Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
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Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 21:09:21 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Herb Stahlke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Afghan/i
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The friend I referred to earlier use Afghani in English, but when he =
speaks Pashto he says /awghOn/, where gh is a voice velar fricative.
Herb
<<< [log in to unmask] 9/19 6:21p >>>
I am told by an Afghan member of our faculty that the correct term, as
far as it goes, is 'Afghan', not 'Afghani'. 'Afghani' is the name of the =
currency.
At the same time, she informs me that there are 24 distinct tribal
groups, and that the name 'Afghan' is the name of a former ruling tribe
which has been generalized to the country as a whole (to the chagrin of
some non-Afghan tribespeople).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics
English Department, California Polytechnic State University
One Grand Avenue * San Luis Obispo, CA 93407
Tel. (805)-756-2184 * Fax: (805)-756-6374 * Dept. Phone. 756-2596
* E-mail: [log in to unmask] * Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrub=
ba
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=20
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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:31:40 +0300
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Issues of language
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Hello Johanna,
JR> The use of 'crusade' was quite unfortunate, from my viewpoint.
JR> Europeans and Americans don't realize how much meaning the ancient
JR> conflict between Christian Europe and the Islamic countries still
JR> has for residents of the Arab world. It is a very salient part of
JR> their appreciation of their own history and culture.
I didn't hear him say that, but friends complained to me about it
yesterday. I told them that Bush probably had not prepared his
statement and said the first thing that came into his head.
I haven't seen it reported in the Arabic press either, and I wonder
what they might say. "Crusade" is normally used in English to mean a
vigorous campaign of any description. The Arabic word for this is
"hamlah", and this word covers roughly the same semantic fields as
crusade, military and moral.
"The Crusades", however, refer to a series of wars that were of minor
significance to the Arab and Muslim worlds but provided the
quintessential and defining experience of modern Western civilization.
It is for this reason that Westerners continue mythically to refer to
these wars and their culture in a kind of collective birth memory.
These Crusades to "liberate" the Holy Land are known as "al-huruub
al-Salibiyyah", "the wars of the cross". Pope Urban II's address at
Chartres launching them almost a millennium ago is framed in language
that is hauntingly familiar today.
Many Arabs know some English and often watch the American TV news on
satellite. When they hear Bush say "crusade" I imagine that many
understand "Crusade" in this second sense.
Omar
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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:32:43 +0300
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Issues of language
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I wrote earlier today:
J> Pope Urban II's address at Chartres launching them almost a
J> millennium ago is framed in language that is hauntingly familiar
J> today.
Concluding his address and announcing the First Crusade, he is
reported to have said:
"They must do what God has commanded us to do, and He will be their
scout and their guide. Whoever finds his fate in the struggle will
have his sins whipped away and God will forgive him his transgressions.
The life of the world is but a misery, full of evil. After our souls
are exhausted before the breaking of our bodies and our spirits, we are
overcome by poverty and misery. Yet there we shall be blessed with
happiness and ease and we shall stand privileged and successful in
the sight of God. We must not be slow or reluctant but must prepare
ourselves to rush forth at the break of summer, and may God guide us."
Omar
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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:28:10 +0300
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Issues of language
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J> Concluding his address and announcing the First Crusade, he is
J> reported to have said:
I'm sorry. I meant to say that this was at the Council of Clermont,
1095, not Chartres, as I had previously said.
Omar
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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:54:44 +0100
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: S K Casson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Language Use (Metaphor)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I think everyone should take the time to read (or re-read) George Lakoff's
open letter to the internet entitled 'Metaphor in Politic'.
Very eerie - particularly when you remember, reading a few lines, that he
is talking about Bush Senior, and not Dubya!
http://philosophy.uoregon.edu/metaphor/lakoff-l.htm
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Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:35:12 +0200
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Maciek Traczyk <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Calligraphy/Slavic case system
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On 18-9-2001 17:01, "Bob Yates" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> the time in written texts aimed at kinds of readers. Given the huge amount of
> time needed to learn the writing system of Chinese, is it any wonder there are
> calligraphy contests?
I would rather see Chinese writing as a part of culture of East Asia.
The Chinese characters have always been used as coat of arms, logos and
other important and widely understandable symbols of power.
In Japan parents spend weeks -- if not months -- studying special books on
names, trying to find the most proper _kanji_ (Chinese character) for the
baby.
On top of that many of my Asian friends say _kanji_ have souls...
Let me tell you a short story: once I asked my calligraphy professor, which
character is the most difficult to write. He immediately replied: "ichi"
('one'). I was stunned, because the character for 'one' is just a single
horizontal stroke! My professor looked at me and said very seriously: "Do
you realise how difficult it is to express your mood, the atmosphere around
you and your own style with just one single stroke?!?"
***
> Herb Stalke mentioned Dick Hudson's review of how grammar is taught in other
> countries. My own experience agrees with Hudson's findings: speakers of
> Slavic languages know much more about the grammar of their languages than
others. Without any evidence (I know very little about the Slavic
languages), I wonder if this may be due to the extensive case system of
those languages with noticeable dialect variation from the standard of the
language.
>
Case system is very complicated, indeed. Thus Polish for example is
extremely difficult to teach. I have never met a foreigner speaking perfect
Polish -- except for people born here, of course.
Cheers!
MACiek
___________________
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Tel:+48-608-632-223
___________________
War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and
multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses. -Thomas Jefferson, author,
architect, and third U.S. president (1743-1826)
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Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:49:49 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Reinhold Schlieper <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Embry-Riddle University
Subject: Re: A Question of Usage - Reinhold
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I've never seen the transliteration "Aal," so I would assume that the
"Al-" prefix is fairly standard in the Kingdom at least. While my
students were always quite willing to alter the spelling
[transliteration] of their names if they thought I was not giving their
names the right pronunciation, the "Aal" never cropped up at all and the
"Al-" was usually connected with hyphen, though I have met a few Saudis
here in the US who preferred to write it as a separate word. I did know
several people whose last name was fairly mundane: Toffaha (Apple), for
example. And then there were many who named themselves first name
followed by father's first name followed by grandfather's first name
without any indication of clan or family. And I don't pretend at all to
have a handle on the "caste" system that also characterizes Saudi
society, although I had evidence that one Saudi friend was barred from
marrying a certain woman because she was in a clan that was not
accessible to him.
So, you may well be right: Not having studied the subject exhaustively,
I simply relied on my experiences.
==Best, Reinhold
Johnstone wrote:
>
> Hello Reinhold,
>
> Wednesday, September 19, 2001, 6:33:36 PM, you wrote:
>
> RS> Al-Saud is the clan name of the ruling family.
>
> The fastidious spell this "Aal Saud", not "Al-Saud". While the
> distinction is clear in the Arabic spelling, it is easily lost in
> English transliteration. The first, "Aal", is used to designate people
> who share a common ancestor, in this case, a man named Saud. Bedouin
> Arabs do not have surnames but have since the remote past, identified
> themselves by referring to a prominent ancestor. The progeny of the
> late King Faisal, while being members of the Aal Saud, often refer to
> themselves as Aal Faisal.
>
> "Aal" should not be confused with "al-" which is merely the definite
> article, a common component in quite a few Arabic personal names,
> usually male.
>
> The Aal Saud dynasty is named for a remote ancestor Muhammad ibn Saud,
> founder of the first Saudi state, who died in the late 18th century,
> and not for King Abdul Aziz ibn Saud, the father of the present king.
>
> I have never heard Saudis refer to themselves as "Sauds".
>
> Omar
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:55:48 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Reinhold Schlieper <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Embry-Riddle University
Subject: Re: Issues of language
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The word "crusade" does seem to fit in with a collection of
"pro-religious" words that Bush is sporting just as willingly. I have a
feeling that if I don't pray for someone these days, I'm an insensitive
cretin with animosity toward America and Americans, not a person who
asserts his right to practicing a non-god-based "religion." In fact
that's what disturbs me most about this whole issues: we have a bunch of
"Allahu aqbar" screaming fanatics on one end and a bunch of "God bless"
screaming fanatics on the other. Nothing good has ever come from
confrontation laced with irrational religions--with apologies for the
tautology.
==Reinhold
Johanna Rubba wrote:
>
> The media have been covering issues of language along with everything
> else related to this disaster. The LA Times has had two pieces, one by
> Geoffrey Nunberg and one by a staff writer interviewing several language
> specialists (including the Atlantic Monthly's Barbara Walraff). Issues
> of word usage, tone, hesitation, etc. are discussed. I imagine you could
> access these via the LA Times website. Maybe some fellow listers could
> let us know of similar reports that they know of. There have also been
> electronic media reports, of course, and the only details I recall from
> these are notes that Colin Powell was judged by one communications
> expert to be the most effective of the government's spokespeople, while
> the President was going a little too far in the direction of aggression
> while at the same time sounding uncomfortable and not terribly fluent.
> (These aren't my own judgments, just what I heard.)
>
> The use of 'crusade' was quite unfortunate, from my viewpoint. Europeans
> and Americans don't realize how much meaning the ancient conflict
> between Christian Europe and the Islamic countries still has for
> residents of the Arab world. It is a very salient part of their
> appreciation of their own history and culture. From my personal
> experience with Muslims and Arabs (including 4 years living in a
> Muslim/Arab country), such a remark would immediately (rightly or
> wrongly) be interpreted as a resurrection of that ancient conflict,
> indicating the 'West's' desire to 'take back' territory from the Islamic
> world and setting the conflict up as a religious conflict, rather than a
> political one. I don't know what Bush's intentions were in using the
> word, but it is a highly inflammatory word in Muslim countries,
> especially in the Arab portion of the Muslim world (by which I mean
> parts of the world in which the majority of residents or very
> substantial portions of the population are Muslims who also perceive
> themselves as Arabs).
>
> Whether avoidance of the word would constitute 'political correctness'
> or not is less important to me than its practical inflammatory value.
> Bush's use of the word was the first and main headline on the BBC's
> headline news one or two evenings this week, showing the BBC's
> understanding of its rhetorical value for the Arab/Muslim audience. My
> reason to avoid it wouldn't be political correctness, but a desire to
> avoid inflaming the situation further (of course, this might have been
> Bush's intention). I don't know if Bush was informed of the practical
> consequences of using this word.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics
> English Department, California Polytechnic State University
> One Grand Avenue • San Luis Obispo, CA 93407
> Tel. (805)-756-2184 • Fax: (805)-756-6374 • Dept. Phone. 756-2596
> • E-mail: [log in to unmask] • Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 01:30:01 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Max Morenberg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Issues of language
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No doubt "crusade" was a bad choice of words because it is offensive
to all Moslems, not just those we consider murderers and terrorists.
But I assumed Bush had wanted to recall our all-out war against Nazi
evil and aggression, which Eisenhower called Crusade in Europe. I
guess because I read Eisenhower's book when I was in high school in
the 50s, that's the first reference I thought of when I heard the
president label our new war a crusade.
Bush should have checked with Middle Eastern experts before using the
word. Nonetheless, it's an understandable error.
--
Max Morenberg, Professor
Department of English
Miami University
Oxford, OH 45056
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Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 07:24:45 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: The KISS Grammar Site
Subject: Re: Irresponsible?
Comments: To: Rebecca Wheeler <[log in to unmask]>
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Wheeler (I guess we are no longer on first-name basis) assumes that
I make a number of assumptions and then "upon this foundation of
ignorance" I hurl accusations. Well, I may hurl accusations, but I'm not
so sure of the ignorance part.
She notes that her students have to take two courses, and her
students "learn English sentence structure" in the second one, where
she uses Max Morenberg's Doing Grammar. I found this interesting,
especially since Professor Morenberg wrote an article for Syntax in 1994
(Volume 11, No.2) in which he questioned the effectiveness of his own
teaching of his own course, using, I assume, his own book. In 1994,
while editing the newsletter, I attempted not to challenge people, but
(to myself) I did question Morenberg's approach. I just pulled out the
article and reread it. As I understand it, he spent ten of fifteen weeks
on sentence structure, and then used the last five to discuss sentence
structure in literature and to examine the work of Loban, Christensen,
etc.
The fundamental problem with Morenberg's approach is that ten week
is simply not enough time for current students to develop an effective
conscious command of syntactic structures. Wheeler writes, "Thus, while
it is indeed untested, I suspect that students engaging in such
life-long (K - 16) discovery learning of language structure would indeed
emerge with a 'strong analytical grasp of sentence structure.' Nobody
ever claimed such mastery would emerge after one semester." But the
future teachers that Wheeler is teaching were not brought up in such an
environment. They have almost no conscious analytical sense of grammar
when they enter their college courses. Indeed, it would not surprise me
if many of these students think, as many of my Freshman do, that "of" is
a verb, and "is" is not. In effect, what I am asking is if she has any
proof that they have it when they leave her courses?
If we want these future teachers to believe that syntax is
systematic, and that a knowledge of it will indeed help them and their
students, the first thing we need to do is to convince them of that
fact. And the only way to do that, I would suggest, is to give them as
much control of the "system" as possible. Take, for example, the
question of clauses. It is fairly easy to teach students definitions and
the ability to identify clauses in "selected" sentences. Teaching them
to untangle the clause structure in any sentence that their students may
read or write is quite another matter. It takes much longer, and it
requires going over numerous texts, randomly selected by the students,
as well as by the instructor. But without such an analytical ability,
the future teachers will find themselves unable to effectively apply
what they have learned in any of the courses taught by people on this
list.
Wheeler claims that what she teaches "goes to challenge their
erroneous, and damaging presumption that there is one and only one
'proper English' and that all others are flawed, imperfect renditions of
the Standard. Students emerge from Language & Teaching understanding at
a deep and personal level that the structure of language varies by time,
place, audience and communicative purpose, knowledge which they then are
able to use with their students to help students code-switch between
language
varieties in their speech and writing." Challenge, it may. Convince, I'm
not so sure. Of course they will tell her that they are convinced. She
is giving the grades. I would suggest that this "lesson" can be taught
much more economically, in terms of time, and I still question her
students' final ability to discuss, intelligently, such things as clause
structure in any text.
As I think I noted in my original post, when there was a debate in
Syntax on main ideas in main clauses, several teachers told me that the
entire discussion was beyond them because they did not understand
clauses. Similarly, from something I read, teachers in England
complained about their new standards because the teachers themselves
could not understand clauses. Most of these teachers had been required
to take a course in grammar, perhaps even two courses. The problem, I
think, is that too many of the people teaching teachers insist on
"teaching" lots of stuff that is interesting (for the "professors"), or
that fits an ideological/politcal framework. I wouldn't have a problem
with this, if the future teachers already had a solid analytical command
of syntax. But there are many English teachers who cannot identify
subjects and verbs, clauses, participles, etc. i.e., the basic
structures of English. There are many teachers who, as I noted in my
first post, think that "because" is a coordinating conjunction. Not only
are these teachers teaching things that are wrong, they are teaching
things that hurt students, not only on standardized tests (as I noted in
the first post), but also in the students' reading and writing.
I still believe that teaching things such as language differences
(in ways that require a lot of class time) is irresponsible and
unethical. Many of us have jobs because the public (and our colleagues
in other fields) believe that students can't "write." Although they say
"write," many of these people have in mind grammatical errors. As
primarily a teacher of Freshman composition, I have to agree with our
colleagues. Many of my students have major problems with fragments,
splices, etc., and, more importantly, they have problems in using the
basic syntax of the language to clearly express the ideas in their
heads. It is for this reason that we have jobs. Likewise, those of you
who have jobs teaching grammar to future teachers have them because the
public (and our academic colleagues) believe that you are teaching
future teachers how to deal with these problems. My questions are are
you? And, if so, how effectively? To the extent that you are not, I
consider you unethical and irresponsible -- you are not meeting the
responsibility implied by the very existence of your jobs.
I found the discussion of September 11 and grammar interesting,
but again, I found most of the discussion going in the wrong track.
Certainly language differences are important, but other than by teaching
foreign languages, we are not going to be able to do very much about
that in teaching grammar. As a composition teacher, I became interested
in the teaching of grammar because of the syntactically garbled
sentences that crossed my desk. For students who do not have a good
background in reading, a conscious command of syntax, a command that
they can apply to any sentence that they read or write, is very helpful.
Are we giving them (and their teachers) that command? If we do not,
will these students be able to participate effectively in the many
complex debates about policy that will be forthcoming?
To do so, we do not need to discuss many (most?) of the
constructions that are discussed on this list. Rather, for example, we
need to enable students to identify prepositional phrases and subjects
and verbs in their own writing, thereby enabling them to see that the
meaningful subject of a verb is in a prepositional phrase, and thus the
sentence needs to be rephrased.
I will, of course, be interested in any responses, and I will be
especially interested should Professor Morenberg respond to it.
Ed V.
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<html>
Wheeler (I guess we are no longer on first-name
basis) assumes that I make a number of assumptions and then "upon this
foundation of ignorance" I hurl accusations. Well, I may hurl accusations,
but I'm not so sure of the ignorance part.
<br> She notes that her students have to
take two courses, and her students "learn English sentence structure"
in the second one, where she uses Max Morenberg's <i>Doing Grammar</i>.
I found this interesting, especially since Professor Morenberg wrote an
article for <i>Syntax</i> in 1994 (Volume 11, No.2) in which he questioned
the effectiveness of his own teaching of his own course, using, I assume,
his own book. In 1994, while editing the newsletter, I attempted not to
challenge people, but (to myself) I did question Morenberg's approach.
I just pulled out the article and reread it. As I understand it, he spent
ten of fifteen weeks on sentence structure, and then used the last five
to discuss sentence structure in literature and to examine the work of
Loban, Christensen, etc.
<br> The fundamental problem with Morenberg's approach
is that ten week is simply not enough time for current students to develop
an <b>effective</b> conscious command of syntactic structures. Wheeler
writes, "Thus, while it is indeed untested, I suspect that students engaging
in such life-long (K - 16) discovery learning of language structure would
indeed emerge with a 'strong analytical grasp of sentence structure.'
Nobody ever claimed such mastery would emerge after one semester." But
the future teachers that Wheeler is teaching were not brought up in such
an environment. They have almost no conscious analytical sense of grammar
when they enter their college courses. Indeed, it would not surprise me
if many of these students think, as many of my Freshman do, that "of" is
a verb, and "is" is not. In effect, what I am asking is if she has any
proof that they have it when they leave her courses?
<br> If we want these future teachers to believe
that syntax is systematic, and that a knowledge of it will indeed help
them and their students, the first thing we need to do is to convince them
of that fact. And the only way to do that, I would suggest, is to give
them as much control of the "system" as possible. Take, for example, the
question of clauses. It is fairly easy to teach students definitions and
the ability to identify clauses in "selected" sentences. Teaching them
to untangle the clause structure in any sentence that their students may
read or write is quite another matter. It takes much longer, and it requires
going over numerous texts, randomly selected by the students, as well as
by the instructor. But without such an analytical ability, the future teachers
will find themselves unable to effectively apply what they have learned
in any of the courses taught by people on this list.
<br> Wheeler claims that what she teaches "goes
to challenge their erroneous, and damaging presumption that there is one
and only one 'proper English' and that all others are flawed, imperfect
renditions of the Standard. Students emerge from Language & Teaching
understanding at a deep and personal level that the structure of language
varies by time, place, audience and communicative purpose, knowledge which
they then are able to use with their students to help students code-switch
between language
<br>varieties in their speech and writing." Challenge, it may. Convince,
I'm not so sure. Of course they will tell her that they are convinced.
She is giving the grades. I would suggest that this "lesson" can be taught
much more economically, in terms of time, and I still question her students'
final ability to discuss, intelligently, such things as clause structure
in any text.
<br> As I think I noted in my original post, when
there was a debate in <i>Syntax</i> on main ideas in main clauses, several
teachers told me that the entire discussion was beyond them because they
did not understand clauses. Similarly, from something I read, teachers
in England complained about their new standards because the teachers themselves
could not understand clauses. Most of these teachers had been required
to take a course in grammar, perhaps even two courses. The problem, I think,
is that too many of the people teaching teachers insist on "teaching" lots
of stuff that is interesting (for the "professors"), or that fits an ideological/politcal
framework. I wouldn't have a problem with this, if the future teachers
already had a solid analytical command of syntax. But there are many English
teachers who cannot identify subjects and verbs, clauses, participles,
etc. i.e., the basic structures of English. There are many teachers who,
as I noted in my first post, think that "because" is a coordinating conjunction.
Not only are these teachers teaching things that are wrong, they
are teaching things that hurt students, not only on standardized tests
(as I noted in the first post), but also in the students' reading and writing.
<br> I still believe that teaching things such
as language differences (in ways that require a lot of class time) is irresponsible
and unethical. Many of us have jobs because the public (and our colleagues
in other fields) believe that students can't "write." Although they say
"write," many of these people have in mind grammatical errors. As primarily
a teacher of Freshman composition, I have to agree with our colleagues.
Many of my students have major problems with fragments, splices, etc.,
and, more importantly, they have problems in using the basic syntax of
the language to clearly express the ideas in their heads. It is for this
reason that we have jobs. Likewise, those of you who have jobs teaching
grammar to future teachers have them because the public (and our academic
colleagues) believe that you are teaching future teachers how to deal with
these problems. My questions are are you? And, if so, how effectively?
To the extent that you are not, I consider you unethical and irresponsible
-- you are not meeting the responsibility implied by the very existence
of your jobs.
<br> I found the discussion of September
11 and grammar interesting, but again, I found most of the discussion going
in the wrong track. Certainly language differences are important, but other
than by teaching foreign languages, we are not going to be able to do very
much about that in teaching grammar. As a composition teacher, I became
interested in the teaching of grammar because of the syntactically garbled
sentences that crossed my desk. For students who do not have a good background
in reading, a conscious command of syntax, a command that they can apply
to any sentence that they read or write, is very helpful. Are we giving
them (and their teachers) that command? If we do not, will these
students be able to participate effectively in the many complex debates
about policy that will be forthcoming?
<br> To do so, we do not need to discuss many (most?)
of the constructions that are discussed on this list. Rather, for example,
we need to enable students to identify prepositional phrases and subjects
and verbs in their own writing, thereby enabling them to see that the meaningful
subject of a verb is in a prepositional phrase, and thus the sentence needs
to be rephrased.
<br> I will, of course, be interested in any responses,
and I will be especially interested should Professor Morenberg respond
to it.
<br>Ed V.
<br>
<br> </html>
--------------253344C3C8FB54C15E9B24C7--
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 08:29:12 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Rebecca S. Wheeler" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Irresponsible?
Comments: To: Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]>
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Ed Vavra wrote:
> Wheeler (I guess we are no longer on first-name basis) assumes
> that I make a number of assumptions and then "upon this foundation of
> ignorance" I hurl accusations. Well, I may hurl accusations, but I'm
> not so sure of the ignorance part.
Well, Ed. When someone accuses me of being "irresponsible and
unethical," they declare themselves no longer in the friend domain.
Besides, your email required professional response, hence the
professional demeanor.
>
> The fundamental problem with Morenberg's approach is that ten
> week is simply not enough time for current students to develop an
> effective conscious command of syntactic structures.
We are on the semester system. Hence 15 weeks, not 10.
> Wheeler writes, "Thus, while it is indeed untested, I suspect that
> students engaging in such life-long (K - 16) discovery learning of
> language structure would indeed emerge with a 'strong analytical grasp
> of sentence structure.' Nobody ever claimed such mastery would emerge
> after one semester." But the future teachers that Wheeler is teaching
> were not brought up in such an environment. They have almost no
> conscious analytical sense of grammar when they enter their college
> courses. Indeed, it would not surprise me if many of these students
> think, as many of my Freshman do, that "of" is a verb, and "is" is
> not. In effect, what I am asking is if she has any proof that they
> have it when they leave her courses?
performance on exams would show that, and does.
>
> If we want these future teachers to believe that syntax is
> systematic, and that a knowledge of it will indeed help them and their
> students, the first thing we need to do is to convince them of that
> fact. And the only way to do that, I would suggest, is to give them as
> much control of the "system" as possible.
completely agreed. Have you worked with Morenberg's book, Ed? I got to
it after Herb Stalke recommended it, saying that his students could
command any sentence thrown at them afterward.
> Take, for example, the question of clauses. It is fairly easy to teach
> students definitions and the ability to identify clauses in "selected"
> sentences. Teaching them to untangle the clause structure in any
> sentence that their students may read or write is quite another
> matter. It takes much longer, and it requires going over numerous
> texts, randomly selected by the students, as well as by the
> instructor. But without such an analytical ability, the future
> teachers will find themselves unable to effectively apply what they
> have learned in any of the courses taught by people on this list.
my courses consistently rate in the top 2% nationwide for critical
thinking, as shown on the IDEA assessment tool.
>
> Wheeler claims that what she teaches "goes to challenge their
> erroneous, and damaging presumption that there is one and only one
> 'proper English' and that all others are flawed, imperfect renditions
> of the Standard. Students emerge from Language & Teaching
> understanding at a deep and personal level that the structure of
> language varies by time, place, audience and communicative purpose,
> knowledge which they then are able to use with their students to help
> students code-switch between language
> varieties in their speech and writing." Challenge, it may. Convince,
> I'm not so sure.
> Of course they will tell her that they are convinced. She is giving
> the grades.
actually, what DO you know, about this, Ed? Flat out nothing. You're not
in my classes, you don't know how I engage with my students. And frankly
you appear utter lacking in curiousity.
> I would suggest that this "lesson" can be taught much more
> economically, in terms of time, and I still question her students'
> final ability to discuss, intelligently, such things as clause
> structure in any text
You do realize that you are bringing this up in the context of the class
that is not geared to teach clause structure.
>
>
> As I think I noted in my original post, when there was a debate
> in Syntax on main ideas in main clauses, several teachers told me that
> the entire discussion was beyond them because they did not understand
> clauses. Similarly, from something I read, teachers in England
> complained about their new standards because the teachers themselves
> could not understand clauses. Most of these teachers had been required
> to take a course in grammar, perhaps even two courses. The problem, I
> think, is that too many of the people teaching teachers insist on
> "teaching" lots of stuff that is interesting (for the "professors"),
> or that fits an ideological/politcal framework.
And what ideological/political framework inheres in a 300 level class in
which students learn linguistic techniques to analyze the contrast
between spoken and written language, the very contrast which turns up
repeatedly as kids write in the cadences of speech?
-
signing off on this.
rebecca
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Rebecca S. Wheeler, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Linguistics
Department of English
1 University Place
Christopher Newport University
Newport News, VA 23606-2998
Telephone: 757-594-8891
Fax: 757-594-8870
Rebecca S. Wheeler is Editor of Syntax in the Schools, the quarterly
journal of the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar (ATEG), an
assembly of the National Council of Teachers of English (NCTE).
www.ateg.org.
Research Interests:
* dialects and language varieties in the schools,
* reducing the achievement gap between inner city minority children and
middle class children,
* discovery learning of grammar in the classroom
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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<p>Ed Vavra wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE> Wheeler (I guess we are
no longer on first-name basis) assumes that I make a number of assumptions
and then "upon this foundation of ignorance" I hurl accusations. Well,
I may hurl accusations, but I'm not so sure of the ignorance part.</blockquote>
Well, Ed. When someone accuses me of being "irresponsible and unethical,"
they declare themselves no longer in the friend domain. Besides, your email
required professional response, hence the professional demeanor.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<br> The fundamental problem with Morenberg's approach
is that ten week is simply not enough time for current students to develop
an <b>effective</b> conscious command of syntactic structures.</blockquote>
<p><br>We are on the semester system. Hence 15 weeks, not 10.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Wheeler writes, "Thus, while it is indeed untested,
I suspect that students engaging in such life-long (K - 16) discovery learning
of language structure would indeed emerge with a 'strong analytical grasp
of sentence structure.' Nobody ever claimed such mastery would emerge
after one semester." But the future teachers that Wheeler is teaching were
not brought up in such an environment. They have almost no conscious analytical
sense of grammar when they enter their college courses. Indeed, it would
not surprise me if many of these students think, as many of my Freshman
do, that "of" is a verb, and "is" is not. In effect, what I am asking is
if she has any proof that they have it when they leave her courses?</blockquote>
performance on exams would show that, and does.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<br> If we want these future teachers to believe
that syntax is systematic, and that a knowledge of it will indeed help
them and their students, the first thing we need to do is to convince them
of that fact. And the only way to do that, I would suggest, is to give
them as much control of the "system" as possible.</blockquote>
completely agreed. Have you worked with Morenberg's book, Ed? I got to
it after Herb Stalke recommended it, saying that his students could command
any sentence thrown at them afterward.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Take, for example, the question of clauses. It is
fairly easy to teach students definitions and the ability to identify clauses
in "selected" sentences. Teaching them to untangle the clause structure
in any sentence that their students may read or write is quite another
matter. It takes much longer, and it requires going over numerous texts,
randomly selected by the students, as well as by the instructor. But without
such an analytical ability, the future teachers will find themselves unable
to effectively apply what they have learned in any of the courses taught
by people on this list.</blockquote>
my courses consistently rate in the top 2% nationwide for critical thinking,
as shown on the IDEA assessment tool.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<br> Wheeler claims that what she teaches "goes
to challenge their erroneous, and damaging presumption that there is one
and only one 'proper English' and that all others are flawed, imperfect
renditions of the Standard. Students emerge from Language & Teaching
understanding at a deep and personal level that the structure of language
varies by time, place, audience and communicative purpose, knowledge which
they then are able to use with their students to help students code-switch
between language
<br>varieties in their speech and writing." Challenge, it may. Convince,
I'm not so sure.</blockquote>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Of course they will tell her that they are convinced.
She is giving the grades.</blockquote>
actually, what DO you know, about this, Ed? Flat out nothing. You're not
in my classes, you don't know how I engage with my students. And frankly
you appear utter lacking in curiousity.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>I would suggest that this "lesson" can be taught
much more economically, in terms of time, and I still question her students'
final ability to discuss, intelligently, such things as clause structure
in any text</blockquote>
You do realize that you are bringing this up in the context of the class
that is not geared to teach clause structure.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE> </blockquote>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<br> As I think I noted in my original post, when
there was a debate in <i>Syntax</i> on main ideas in main clauses, several
teachers told me that the entire discussion was beyond them because they
did not understand clauses. Similarly, from something I read, teachers
in England complained about their new standards because the teachers themselves
could not understand clauses. Most of these teachers had been required
to take a course in grammar, perhaps even two courses. The problem, I think,
is that too many of the people teaching teachers insist on "teaching" lots
of stuff that is interesting (for the "professors"), or that fits an ideological/politcal
framework.</blockquote>
And what ideological/political framework inheres in a 300 level class in
which students learn linguistic techniques to analyze the contrast between
spoken and written language, the very contrast which turns up repeatedly
as kids write in the cadences of speech?
<br>-
<br>signing off on this.
<br>rebecca
<br>
<p>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<p>Rebecca S. Wheeler, Ph.D.
<br>Assistant Professor of Linguistics
<br>Department of English
<br>1 University Place
<br>Christopher Newport University
<br>Newport News, VA 23606-2998
<p>Telephone: 757-594-8891
<br>Fax: 757-594-8870
<p>Rebecca S. Wheeler is Editor of Syntax in the Schools, the quarterly
journal of the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar (ATEG), an
assembly of the National Council of Teachers of English (NCTE). www.ateg.org.
<p>Research Interests:
<br>* dialects and language varieties in the schools,
<br>* reducing the achievement gap between inner city minority children
and middle class children,
<br>* discovery learning of grammar in the classroom
<p>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<br> </html>
--------------0EA22B1BA2647101C1CF0F15--
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Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 14:52:26 +0200
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Patricia Reeve-De Becker <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Issues of language
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"Crusade", definitely a bad choice to British English speakers' ears.
It conjures up all the history of Richard the Lionheart, about 300 years
of 'Holy'Wars, Christians versus Muslims and the battles to capture and
recapture Jerusalem. In the given situation this is the first connotation
which springs to mind.
The images are vivid but narrow much like 'cowboys and Indians'
Thank you Omar, for explaining the usage "hamlah" and "al-huruub
al-Salibiyyah". It was interesting, almost comforting, to hear these
wars were of minor significance to the Arab and Muslim worlds as
they constitute a large part of our history.
So it all boils down to the translation and I wonder
if it has been picked up by the Arabic Press in the meantime.
Even if it is 'overlooked', I still personally see it as a potentially
dangerous choice which pushes the whole issue into a disturbing area as
Reinhold Schlieper wrote.
Here I must apologise for having sent my mail in German recently
and thank Reinhold for the translation.( I'm a Brit, living in Germany)
As you can imagine it was by mistake, not intended for this forum at all.
I've only just seen it, not having 'visited' you all for some time.
I would also like to apologise to those who have found the subject
distressing or not appropriate for the forum.
However, reading through the many responses and ensuing discussions,
I can see more positive than negative outcomes. I have been able to gather
some valuable insights and information - The Lakoff article, to mention but one -
and sincerely hope anyone driven off the list will soon come 'home'.
Martha, where are you?
Patsi
Max Morenberg schrieb:
> No doubt "crusade" was a bad choice of words because it is offensive
> to all Moslems, not just those we consider murderers and terrorists.
> But I assumed Bush had wanted to recall our all-out war against Nazi
> evil and aggression, which Eisenhower called Crusade in Europe. I
> guess because I read Eisenhower's book when I was in high school in
> the 50s, that's the first reference I thought of when I heard the
> president label our new war a crusade.
>
> Bush should have checked with Middle Eastern experts before using the
> word. Nonetheless, it's an understandable error.
>
> --
> Max Morenberg, Professor
> Department of English
> Miami University
> Oxford, OH 45056
> [log in to unmask]
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 15:52:11 +0200
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Maciek Traczyk <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Irresponsible?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-version: 1.0
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On 22-9-2001 13:24, "Ed Vavra" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> But there are many English teachers who cannot identify
> subjects and verbs, clauses, participles, etc. i.e., the basic structures of
> English.
I cannot imagine that!? In Poland you wouldn't even be able to finish
primary school without such basics... Not to mention becoming a _teacher_.
> To do so, we do not need to discuss many (most?) of the constructions that
> are discussed on this list. Rather, for example, we need to enable students to
> identify prepositional phrases and subjects and verbs in their own writing,
That's a very good point. To make it more interesting for the students you
can always use _funny_ sentences (e.g. "My stupid professor made us work
again").
Have a nice weekend!
MACiek :-)
___________________
[log in to unmask]
Tel:+48-608-632-223
___________________
War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and
multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses. -Thomas Jefferson, author,
architect, and third U.S. president (1743-1826)
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Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 18:30:48 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: MAX MORENBERG <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Irresponsible?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Ed, I've never gotten in a discussion of my own work, since I
consider it unprofessional to talk about yourself. But I just looked
back over that 1994 article, and I think you misrepresented it. The
article was about a series of studies I asked several graduate
students to do in my grammar class, because I wasn't happy with how
well the students were learning grammar and what they thought about
the class. I used those reports (that I commissioned) to change a
number of things in class-my use of peer groups, the pace that the
material was presented, certain texts I was using, as well as the
division of the course into two sections-ten weeks on grammar and
five weeks on Hunt/Christensen/Loban studies.
So I don't think it's quite fair to say,
I found this interesting, especially since Professor Morenberg wrote
an article for Syntax in 1994
(Volume 11, No.2) in which he questioned the effectiveness of his own
teaching of his own course . . . .
at least not without going on to say,
So he did something about it. He had outside observers sit in on his
class, talk to his students, and suggest changes in his syllabus and
procedures.
My own sense is that's what concerned teachers do when they perceive
there are issues they haven't handled well.
I was, in that article, forthcoming with the problems as well as the
changes I made and how I found answers-often to questions I had not
asked. I did question the effectiveness of my class. But I did
something about it. Seven years ago.
I even did a presentation at 4Cs (in Nashville) on the subject, with
two of the graduate students and several undergraduate students from
the class, who talked about the changes in the course and how their
input was listened to.
Now I'm out of the discussion again. I don't care to argue this
issue. I'm going back to proofreading the third edition of my text
and preparing Monday's lesson for my new, improved grammar course
(reshaped several times since 1994 because I'm always looking for
ways to improve how I teach grammar).
Back into silence,
Max
--
Max Morenberg, Professor
Department of English
Miami University
Oxford, OH 45056
513-529-2520
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Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 15:28:33 +1000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: john kinny-lewis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: educational competition
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Hi,
I have developed an interactive educational site which is based on the
'Millionaire game'.
The main areas are English, Mathematics and History.
The games are randomly generated from a database.
I am organising a competition among schools around the world.
The competition is yet to be decided ( possibly english or mathematics). I
would appreciate suggestions.
Regards,
John Kinny-Lewis
webclass: http://www.webclass.asn.au
email: [log in to unmask]
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=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 01:36:03 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Mike Garant <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: 2 new viruses
In-Reply-To: <p05100302b7d2b9ffcc6b@[134.53.31.108]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-907927997-1001234163=:45396"
--0-907927997-1001234163=:45396
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Hi all!
To answer last weeks queries, Finnish English teacher must take large blocks
of Finnish mother toungue while in college. It tends to focus on grammar and morphology.
I decided to forward this because it looks dangerous.
More later,
Mike
>WORST EVER VIRUS (CNN announced)
>
>PLEASE SEND THIS TO EVERYONE ON YOUR CONTACT LIST !!
>
>(1) A new virus has just been discovered that has been
>classified by Microsoft as the most destructive ever! This virus was
>discovered yesterday afternoon by McAfee and no vaccine has yet been
>developed. This virus simply destroys Sector Zero from the hard disk,
>where vital information for its functioning are stored.
>
>This virus acts in the following manner: It sends itself
>automatically to all contacts on your list with the title "A Virtual
>Card for You". As soon as the supposed virtual card is opened, the
>computer freezes so that the user has to reboot. When the
>ctrl+alt+del keys or the reset button are pressed, the virus destroys
>Sector Zero, thus permanently destroying the hard disk.
>
>Yesterday in just a few hours this virus caused panic in New York,
>according to news broadcast by CNN. This alert was received by an
>employee of Microsoft itself. So don't open any mails with subject:
>"A Virtual Card for You". As soon as you get the mail, delete it
>immediately.
>
>Please pass this mail to all of your friends. Forward this to
>everyone in your address book. I would rather receive this 25 times
>than not at all.
>
>(2) Also: Intel announced that a new and very destructive virus was
>discovered recently. If you receive an email called "An Internet
>Flower For You", do not open it. Delete it right away! This virus
>removes all dynamic
>link libraries (.dll files) from your computer.
>Your computer will not be able to boot up !!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Dr. Mike Garant
English Philology Department Room C 353
University of Tampere
Pyynikintie 2
FIN-33014 University of Tampere
Finland Cell phone 050 357 5583 Office 03 215 6134
Associate Editor of AEQ: http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/
---------------------------------
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Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger.
--0-907927997-1001234163=:45396
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<P><FONT size=2>Hi all!</FONT>
<P>To answer last weeks queries, Finnish English teacher must take large blocks
<P>of Finnish mother toungue while in college. It tends to focus on grammar and morphology.
<P>I decided to forward this because it looks dangerous.
<P>More later,
<P>Mike
<P><FONT size=2>>WORST EVER VIRUS (CNN announced)
<P>></P>
<P>>PLEASE SEND THIS TO EVERYONE ON YOUR CONTACT LIST !!</P>
<P>></P>
<P>>(1) A new virus has just been discovered that has been</P>
<P>>classified by Microsoft as the most destructive ever! This virus was</P>
<P>>discovered yesterday afternoon by McAfee and no vaccine has yet been</P>
<P>>developed. This virus simply destroys Sector Zero from the hard disk,</P>
<P>>where vital information for its functioning are stored.</P>
<P>></P>
<P>>This virus acts in the following manner: It sends itself</P>
<P>>automatically to all contacts on your list with the title "A Virtual</P>
<P>>Card for You". As soon as the supposed virtual card is opened, the</P>
<P>>computer freezes so that the user has to reboot. When the</P>
<P>>ctrl+alt+del keys or the reset button are pressed, the virus destroys</P>
<P>>Sector Zero, thus permanently destroying the hard disk.</P>
<P>></P>
<P>>Yesterday in just a few hours this virus caused panic in New York,</P>
<P>>according to news broadcast by CNN. This alert was received by an</P>
<P>>employee of Microsoft itself. So don't open any mails with subject:</P>
<P>>"A Virtual Card for You". As soon as you get the mail, delete it</P>
<P>>immediately.</P>
<P>></P>
<P>>Please pass this mail to all of your friends. Forward this to</P>
<P>>everyone in your address book. I would rather receive this 25 times</P>
<P>>than not at all.</P>
<P>></P>
<P>>(2) Also: Intel announced that a new and very destructive virus was</P>
<P>>discovered recently. If you receive an email called "An Internet</P>
<P>>Flower For You", do not open it. Delete it right away! This virus</P>
<P>>removes all dynamic</P>
<P>>link libraries (.dll files) from your computer.</P>
<P>>Your computer will not be able to boot up !!</P>
<P>></P>
<P>></P>
<P>></P>
<P>></P>
<P>></P>
<P>></P>
<P>></P>
<P>></P>
<P>></P>
<P>></P>
<P>></P>
<P>></P>
<P> </P></FONT><BR><BR><P align=center>Dr. Mike Garant<BR>English Philology Department Room C 353</P>
<P align=center>University of Tampere<BR>Pyynikintie 2<BR>FIN-33014 University of Tampere</P>
<P align=center>Finland Cell phone 050 357 5583 Office 03 215 6134<BR>Associate Editor of AEQ: <A href="http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/">http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/</A></P><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br>
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with <a
href="http://rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/tag/?http://im.yahoo.com/">Yahoo! Messenger</a>.
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=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 10:22:14 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ken Bain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: educational competition
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
A clarification please: You say you have devised an "educational" site "based on
the 'Millionaire game.'" I not sure what "millionaire game" you mean, but if you
refer to the popular television quiz show, "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire," your
announcement may involve a bit of an oxymoron. That "millionaire" game is based
on recall of isolated pieces of information--no, I'm sorry, on "recognition" of
isolated pieces of information, and considerable research on human learning would
suggest that it has, by itself, little educational value. In fact, suggesting
that "learning" involves nothing more than remembering can encourage learners to
do little more than memorization. The ability to think, to analyze, synthesize,
evaluation, does depend on memory, but a lasting memory is best cultivated through
understanding. I remember because I understand. People construct their
understanding, they don't memorize it.
But I may have misunderstood your announcement. A clarification would be
helpful. Thanks.
john kinny-lewis wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have developed an interactive educational site which is based on the
> 'Millionaire game'.
>
> The main areas are English, Mathematics and History.
>
> The games are randomly generated from a database.
>
> I am organising a competition among schools around the world.
>
> The competition is yet to be decided ( possibly english or mathematics). I
> would appreciate suggestions.
>
> Regards,
>
> John Kinny-Lewis
>
> webclass: http://www.webclass.asn.au
> email: [log in to unmask]
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
Ken Bain, Director
Searle Center for Teaching Excellence
Northwestern University
627 Dartmouth Place
Evanston, IL 60208-4181
(847) 467-2338
email: [log in to unmask]
http://president.scfte.nwu.edu
For directions to the Center, see the maps on our Web site.
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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 01:59:55 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Mike Garant <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: educational competition
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1707371872-1001408395=:46980"
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Greetings from Finland!
The fall edition of AEQ focusing on language teaching and learning will be delayed one month since it is published in New York.
Information can be found at:
http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/
We are accepting articles for future editions. It would be nice to get some articles on grammar teaching and learning.
Thanks and I hope to hear from you.
All the Best,
Mike
Dr. Mike Garant
School of Modern Language and Translation Studies / Kieli- ja käännöstieteiden
laitos Office: Room C 353
University of Tampere
Pyynikintie 2, FIN-33014 University of Tampere Finland
Office phone 03 215 6134 fax. +358-(0)3-215 7146 [log in to unmask]
Associate Editor of Academic Echange Quarterly (AEQ): http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/
---------------------------------
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--0-1707371872-1001408395=:46980
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<P> Greetings from Finland!
<P>The fall edition of AEQ focusing on language teaching and learning will be delayed one month since it is published in New York.</P>
<P>Information can be found at: </P>
<P><U><FONT color=#0000ff>http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/</U></FONT> </P>
<P>We are accepting articles for future editions. It would be nice to get some articles on grammar teaching and learning.</P>
<P>Thanks and I hope to hear from you. </P>
<P>All the Best, </P>
<P>Mike </P><BR><BR>Dr. Mike Garant<BR>School of Modern Language and Translation Studies / Kieli- ja käännöstieteiden <BR>laitos Office: Room C 353<BR>University of Tampere<BR>Pyynikintie 2, FIN-33014 University of Tampere Finland <BR>Office phone 03 215 6134 fax. +358-(0)3-215 7146 <A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR>Associate Editor of Academic Echange Quarterly (AEQ): <A href="http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/">http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/</A><BR><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br>
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with <a
href="http://rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/tag/?http://im.yahoo.com/">Yahoo! Messenger</a>.
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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:07:05 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Haussamen, Brock" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: A recommended article
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
David Foster Wallace's article "Tense Present: Democracy, ENglish, and the
Wars over Usage" is a careful--and often very funny--argument for the
teaching of standard English and a rebuttal of the linguist's descriptive
approach. It appeared in Harper's Magazine, April 2001. I think many on
the list will find it provocative.
Brock Haussamen
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Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:04:54 +1000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: john kinny-lewis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: educational competition
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Ken,
The name of the model is used to create interest and has no real educational
value.
The model is interesting as it presents a challenge to students..most of the
questions become more difficult as the game proceeds. The resources section
contains information that relates to the game.Students can then succeed
either by their knowledge of the topic or using their research skills.
Cheers,
John Kinny-Lewis
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Ken Bain
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 1:22 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: educational competition
A clarification please: You say you have devised an "educational" site
"based on
the 'Millionaire game.'" I not sure what "millionaire game" you mean, but
if you
refer to the popular television quiz show, "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire,"
your
announcement may involve a bit of an oxymoron. That "millionaire" game is
based
on recall of isolated pieces of information--no, I'm sorry, on "recognition"
of
isolated pieces of information, and considerable research on human learning
would
suggest that it has, by itself, little educational value. In fact,
suggesting
that "learning" involves nothing more than remembering can encourage
learners to
do little more than memorization. The ability to think, to analyze,
synthesize,
evaluation, does depend on memory, but a lasting memory is best cultivated
through
understanding. I remember because I understand. People construct their
understanding, they don't memorize it.
But I may have misunderstood your announcement. A clarification would be
helpful. Thanks.
john kinny-lewis wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have developed an interactive educational site which is based on the
> 'Millionaire game'.
>
> The main areas are English, Mathematics and History.
>
> The games are randomly generated from a database.
>
> I am organising a competition among schools around the world.
>
> The competition is yet to be decided ( possibly english or mathematics). I
> would appreciate suggestions.
>
> Regards,
>
> John Kinny-Lewis
>
> webclass: http://www.webclass.asn.au
> email: [log in to unmask]
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
Ken Bain, Director
Searle Center for Teaching Excellence
Northwestern University
627 Dartmouth Place
Evanston, IL 60208-4181
(847) 467-2338
email: [log in to unmask]
http://president.scfte.nwu.edu
For directions to the Center, see the maps on our Web site.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:55:14 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ken Bain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: educational competition
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thanks, John.
Good luck
john kinny-lewis wrote:
> Hi Ken,
> The name of the model is used to create interest and has no real educational
> value.
> The model is interesting as it presents a challenge to students..most of the
> questions become more difficult as the game proceeds. The resources section
> contains information that relates to the game.Students can then succeed
> either by their knowledge of the topic or using their research skills.
> Cheers,
> John Kinny-Lewis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Ken Bain
> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 1:22 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: educational competition
>
> A clarification please: You say you have devised an "educational" site
> "based on
> the 'Millionaire game.'" I not sure what "millionaire game" you mean, but
> if you
> refer to the popular television quiz show, "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire,"
> your
> announcement may involve a bit of an oxymoron. That "millionaire" game is
> based
> on recall of isolated pieces of information--no, I'm sorry, on "recognition"
> of
> isolated pieces of information, and considerable research on human learning
> would
> suggest that it has, by itself, little educational value. In fact,
> suggesting
> that "learning" involves nothing more than remembering can encourage
> learners to
> do little more than memorization. The ability to think, to analyze,
> synthesize,
> evaluation, does depend on memory, but a lasting memory is best cultivated
> through
> understanding. I remember because I understand. People construct their
> understanding, they don't memorize it.
>
> But I may have misunderstood your announcement. A clarification would be
> helpful. Thanks.
>
> john kinny-lewis wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have developed an interactive educational site which is based on the
> > 'Millionaire game'.
> >
> > The main areas are English, Mathematics and History.
> >
> > The games are randomly generated from a database.
> >
> > I am organising a competition among schools around the world.
> >
> > The competition is yet to be decided ( possibly english or mathematics). I
> > would appreciate suggestions.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > John Kinny-Lewis
> >
> > webclass: http://www.webclass.asn.au
> > email: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --
> Ken Bain, Director
> Searle Center for Teaching Excellence
> Northwestern University
> 627 Dartmouth Place
> Evanston, IL 60208-4181
> (847) 467-2338
> email: [log in to unmask]
> http://president.scfte.nwu.edu
> For directions to the Center, see the maps on our Web site.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
Ken Bain, Director
Searle Center for Teaching Excellence
Northwestern University
627 Dartmouth Place
Evanston, IL 60208-4181
(847) 467-2338
email: [log in to unmask]
http://president.scfte.nwu.edu
For directions to the Center, see the maps on our Web site.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 07:52:02 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "DeMersseman, Gayle" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Unsubscribe
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Bain [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 5:55 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: educational competition
Thanks, John.
Good luck
john kinny-lewis wrote:
> Hi Ken,
> The name of the model is used to create interest and has no real
educational
> value.
> The model is interesting as it presents a challenge to students..most of
the
> questions become more difficult as the game proceeds. The resources
section
> contains information that relates to the game.Students can then succeed
> either by their knowledge of the topic or using their research skills.
> Cheers,
> John Kinny-Lewis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Ken Bain
> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 1:22 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: educational competition
>
> A clarification please: You say you have devised an "educational" site
> "based on
> the 'Millionaire game.'" I not sure what "millionaire game" you mean, but
> if you
> refer to the popular television quiz show, "Who Wants to Be a
Millionaire,"
> your
> announcement may involve a bit of an oxymoron. That "millionaire" game is
> based
> on recall of isolated pieces of information--no, I'm sorry, on
"recognition"
> of
> isolated pieces of information, and considerable research on human
learning
> would
> suggest that it has, by itself, little educational value. In fact,
> suggesting
> that "learning" involves nothing more than remembering can encourage
> learners to
> do little more than memorization. The ability to think, to analyze,
> synthesize,
> evaluation, does depend on memory, but a lasting memory is best cultivated
> through
> understanding. I remember because I understand. People construct their
> understanding, they don't memorize it.
>
> But I may have misunderstood your announcement. A clarification would be
> helpful. Thanks.
>
> john kinny-lewis wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have developed an interactive educational site which is based on the
> > 'Millionaire game'.
> >
> > The main areas are English, Mathematics and History.
> >
> > The games are randomly generated from a database.
> >
> > I am organising a competition among schools around the world.
> >
> > The competition is yet to be decided ( possibly english or mathematics).
I
> > would appreciate suggestions.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > John Kinny-Lewis
> >
> > webclass: http://www.webclass.asn.au
> > email: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --
> Ken Bain, Director
> Searle Center for Teaching Excellence
> Northwestern University
> 627 Dartmouth Place
> Evanston, IL 60208-4181
> (847) 467-2338
> email: [log in to unmask]
> http://president.scfte.nwu.edu
> For directions to the Center, see the maps on our Web site.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
Ken Bain, Director
Searle Center for Teaching Excellence
Northwestern University
627 Dartmouth Place
Evanston, IL 60208-4181
(847) 467-2338
email: [log in to unmask]
http://president.scfte.nwu.edu
For directions to the Center, see the maps on our Web site.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 07:52:24 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "DeMersseman, Gayle" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Unsubscribe
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
-----Original Message-----
From: john kinny-lewis [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 6:05 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: educational competition
Hi Ken,
The name of the model is used to create interest and has no real educational
value.
The model is interesting as it presents a challenge to students..most of the
questions become more difficult as the game proceeds. The resources section
contains information that relates to the game.Students can then succeed
either by their knowledge of the topic or using their research skills.
Cheers,
John Kinny-Lewis
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Ken Bain
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 1:22 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: educational competition
A clarification please: You say you have devised an "educational" site
"based on
the 'Millionaire game.'" I not sure what "millionaire game" you mean, but
if you
refer to the popular television quiz show, "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire,"
your
announcement may involve a bit of an oxymoron. That "millionaire" game is
based
on recall of isolated pieces of information--no, I'm sorry, on "recognition"
of
isolated pieces of information, and considerable research on human learning
would
suggest that it has, by itself, little educational value. In fact,
suggesting
that "learning" involves nothing more than remembering can encourage
learners to
do little more than memorization. The ability to think, to analyze,
synthesize,
evaluation, does depend on memory, but a lasting memory is best cultivated
through
understanding. I remember because I understand. People construct their
understanding, they don't memorize it.
But I may have misunderstood your announcement. A clarification would be
helpful. Thanks.
john kinny-lewis wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have developed an interactive educational site which is based on the
> 'Millionaire game'.
>
> The main areas are English, Mathematics and History.
>
> The games are randomly generated from a database.
>
> I am organising a competition among schools around the world.
>
> The competition is yet to be decided ( possibly english or mathematics). I
> would appreciate suggestions.
>
> Regards,
>
> John Kinny-Lewis
>
> webclass: http://www.webclass.asn.au
> email: [log in to unmask]
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
Ken Bain, Director
Searle Center for Teaching Excellence
Northwestern University
627 Dartmouth Place
Evanston, IL 60208-4181
(847) 467-2338
email: [log in to unmask]
http://president.scfte.nwu.edu
For directions to the Center, see the maps on our Web site.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 23:13:54 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Max Morenberg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: NYTimes.com Article: Every Conflict Generates Its Own Lexicon
This article from NYTimes.com
has been sent to you by [log in to unmask]
I don't usually like Safire's articles on language, but this one seems a good follow up to our discussion this week on Bush's use of the word "crusade." Max
[log in to unmask]
Every Conflict Generates Its Own Lexicon
September 30, 2001
By WILLIAM SAFIRE
You are about to embark upon a great crusade,'' General
Eisenhower told his troops on the eve of D-Day; he later
titled his memoirs ''Crusade in Europe.'' American
presidents liked that word: Thomas Jefferson launched ''a
crusade against ignorance,'' Theodore Roosevelt exhorted
compatriots to ''spend and be spent in an endless crusade''
and F.D.R., calling for a ''new deal'' in his acceptance
speech at the 1932 Democratic convention, issued ''a call
to arms,'' a ''crusade to restore America to its own
people.''
But when George W. Bush ad-libbed that ''this crusade, this
war on terrorism, is going to take a while,'' his figure of
speech was widely criticized. That's because the word has a
religious root, meaning ''taking the cross,'' and was
coined in the 11th century to describe the first military
expedition of the Crusaders, European Christians sent to
recover the Holy Land from the followers of Muhammad. The
rallying-cry noun is offensive to many Muslims: three years
ago, Osama bin Laden maligned U.S. forces in the Middle
East as ''crusader armies spreading like locusts.''
In this case, a word that has traditionally been used to
rally Americans was mistakenly used in the context of
opposing a radical Muslim faction, and the White House
spokesman promptly apologized. In the same way, Vice
President Dick Cheney was chided for referring admiringly
to Pakistanis as ''Paks.'' Steven Weisman of The New York
Times asked, ''Is it conceivable that he would have used a
similar slur with the Japanese?'' The shortening Paki is
taken to be a slur, even when criticized as
''Paki-bashing,'' and Paks only slightly less so. In past
military cooperation with Pakistan, U.S. service members
used Paks as they would use Brits or Aussies, nationality
nicknames no more offensive than Yanks. Cheney probably
picked up Paks in his Pentagon days, but innocent intent is
an excuse only once; now he is sensitized, as are we all.
In the same way, when the proposed Pentagon label for the
antiterror campaign was floated out as ''Operation Infinite
Justice,'' a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic
Relations noted that such eternal retribution was ''the
prerogative of God.'' Informed of this, Defense Secretary
Donald Rumsfeld quickly pulled the plug on the pretentious
moniker.
Who coins these terms? Nobody will step forward; instead,
software called ''Code Word, Nickname and Exercise Term
System'' is employed to avoid responsibility; it spits out
a list of random names from which commanders can choose.
This avoidance of coinage responsibility leads to national
embarrassment (which is finite justice). ''Operations,''
said Winston Churchill, ''ought not to be described by code
words which imply a boastful and overconfident sentiment.''
Apropos of Churchill: in Bush's well-received address to
the joint session of Congress calling for a ''war on
terror,'' the president said with impressive intensity,
''We will not tire, we will not falter and we will not
fail.'' This evocation of an earlier rhetoric of resolution
(which his aides, who turned out the speech in nine hours,
insist was not researched) could not have been lost on
Prime Minister Tony Blair, an honored guest in the
audience. In a speech broadcast to America on Feb. 9, 1941,
Churchill said: ''We shall not fail or falter; we shall not
weaken or tire. . . . Give us the tools, and we will finish
the job.'' (Note where the Brit placed the shalls to
heighten the expression of resolve, and the will expressing
futurity before the stressed finish. Bush held to the more
American will not, in front of the emphasized tire, falter
and fail.)
The Bush speech showed a heightened concern for
connotation. In an exegesis of his prepared speech, this
former speechwriter looked for the words not chosen. For
example, Bush castigated the power-seeking terrorists as
those who ''follow in the path of Fascism, Nazism and
totalitarianism.'' The word left out of the series
beginning with Fascism and Nazism is, of course, Communism;
however, the administration is seeking help from Russia and
other former Soviet republics, in which many former and
present Communists live -- hence, the less specific,
all-encompassing totalitarianism. The tactful substitution
preceded the most original phrase in the speech, pointing
to the end of the path of all those isms: ''history's
unmarked grave of discarded lies.''
The other noun that was not there in the Bush address to
Congress was defense, as in the hottest phrase in
Washington today, homeland defense.
The earliest citation I can find is by China's Xinhua News
Agency, reporting on April 11, 1977, about ''the
mobilization of the puppet army and the 'homeland defense
reserve forces' '' by South Korea. Twenty years later, a
panel of experts recommended to Defense Secretary William
Cohen that a new armed-forces mission considering
biological threats be called Defense of the Homeland.
In February 2001, a commission headed by former Senators
Gary Hart and Warren Rudman delivered a prescient report
that the nation was vulnerable to terrorist attack. It
called for a cabinet-level agency amalgamating customs, law
enforcement, Coast Guard and other nonmilitary federal
agencies coordinating homeland defense. The Hart-Rudman
report received little attention in the media or at the
White House.
On the eve of the President's speech, White House sources
told The Associated Press he would create a ''Homeland
Defense Security Office'' -- a coordination group, not a
whole new department. At the last minute, the word defense
was dropped. Why? I'm told because it ''sounded
defensive,'' and more probably, ''protecting the internal
security of the homeland would be confused with the
war-making mission of the Department of Defense.''
Thus, in the new lexicon of the war on terror, security
means ''defense''; defense means ''attack.''
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/30/magazine/30ONLANGUAGE.html?ex=1002733234&ei=1&en=0763c099c57f6d44
HOW TO ADVERTISE
---------------------------------
For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters
or other creative advertising opportunities with The
New York Times on the Web, please contact Alyson
Racer at [log in to unmask] or visit our online media
kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo
For general information about NYTimes.com, write to
[log in to unmask]
Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 23:15:18 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Max Morenberg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: NYTimes.com Article: Every Conflict Generates Its Own Lexicon
This article from NYTimes.com
has been sent to you by [log in to unmask]
I don't usually like Safire's articles on language, but this one seems a good follow up to our discussion this week on Bush's use of the word "crusade." Max
[log in to unmask]
Every Conflict Generates Its Own Lexicon
September 30, 2001
By WILLIAM SAFIRE
You are about to embark upon a great crusade,'' General
Eisenhower told his troops on the eve of D-Day; he later
titled his memoirs ''Crusade in Europe.'' American
presidents liked that word: Thomas Jefferson launched ''a
crusade against ignorance,'' Theodore Roosevelt exhorted
compatriots to ''spend and be spent in an endless crusade''
and F.D.R., calling for a ''new deal'' in his acceptance
speech at the 1932 Democratic convention, issued ''a call
to arms,'' a ''crusade to restore America to its own
people.''
But when George W. Bush ad-libbed that ''this crusade, this
war on terrorism, is going to take a while,'' his figure of
speech was widely criticized. That's because the word has a
religious root, meaning ''taking the cross,'' and was
coined in the 11th century to describe the first military
expedition of the Crusaders, European Christians sent to
recover the Holy Land from the followers of Muhammad. The
rallying-cry noun is offensive to many Muslims: three years
ago, Osama bin Laden maligned U.S. forces in the Middle
East as ''crusader armies spreading like locusts.''
In this case, a word that has traditionally been used to
rally Americans was mistakenly used in the context of
opposing a radical Muslim faction, and the White House
spokesman promptly apologized. In the same way, Vice
President Dick Cheney was chided for referring admiringly
to Pakistanis as ''Paks.'' Steven Weisman of The New York
Times asked, ''Is it conceivable that he would have used a
similar slur with the Japanese?'' The shortening Paki is
taken to be a slur, even when criticized as
''Paki-bashing,'' and Paks only slightly less so. In past
military cooperation with Pakistan, U.S. service members
used Paks as they would use Brits or Aussies, nationality
nicknames no more offensive than Yanks. Cheney probably
picked up Paks in his Pentagon days, but innocent intent is
an excuse only once; now he is sensitized, as are we all.
In the same way, when the proposed Pentagon label for the
antiterror campaign was floated out as ''Operation Infinite
Justice,'' a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic
Relations noted that such eternal retribution was ''the
prerogative of God.'' Informed of this, Defense Secretary
Donald Rumsfeld quickly pulled the plug on the pretentious
moniker.
Who coins these terms? Nobody will step forward; instead,
software called ''Code Word, Nickname and Exercise Term
System'' is employed to avoid responsibility; it spits out
a list of random names from which commanders can choose.
This avoidance of coinage responsibility leads to national
embarrassment (which is finite justice). ''Operations,''
said Winston Churchill, ''ought not to be described by code
words which imply a boastful and overconfident sentiment.''
Apropos of Churchill: in Bush's well-received address to
the joint session of Congress calling for a ''war on
terror,'' the president said with impressive intensity,
''We will not tire, we will not falter and we will not
fail.'' This evocation of an earlier rhetoric of resolution
(which his aides, who turned out the speech in nine hours,
insist was not researched) could not have been lost on
Prime Minister Tony Blair, an honored guest in the
audience. In a speech broadcast to America on Feb. 9, 1941,
Churchill said: ''We shall not fail or falter; we shall not
weaken or tire. . . . Give us the tools, and we will finish
the job.'' (Note where the Brit placed the shalls to
heighten the expression of resolve, and the will expressing
futurity before the stressed finish. Bush held to the more
American will not, in front of the emphasized tire, falter
and fail.)
The Bush speech showed a heightened concern for
connotation. In an exegesis of his prepared speech, this
former speechwriter looked for the words not chosen. For
example, Bush castigated the power-seeking terrorists as
those who ''follow in the path of Fascism, Nazism and
totalitarianism.'' The word left out of the series
beginning with Fascism and Nazism is, of course, Communism;
however, the administration is seeking help from Russia and
other former Soviet republics, in which many former and
present Communists live -- hence, the less specific,
all-encompassing totalitarianism. The tactful substitution
preceded the most original phrase in the speech, pointing
to the end of the path of all those isms: ''history's
unmarked grave of discarded lies.''
The other noun that was not there in the Bush address to
Congress was defense, as in the hottest phrase in
Washington today, homeland defense.
The earliest citation I can find is by China's Xinhua News
Agency, reporting on April 11, 1977, about ''the
mobilization of the puppet army and the 'homeland defense
reserve forces' '' by South Korea. Twenty years later, a
panel of experts recommended to Defense Secretary William
Cohen that a new armed-forces mission considering
biological threats be called Defense of the Homeland.
In February 2001, a commission headed by former Senators
Gary Hart and Warren Rudman delivered a prescient report
that the nation was vulnerable to terrorist attack. It
called for a cabinet-level agency amalgamating customs, law
enforcement, Coast Guard and other nonmilitary federal
agencies coordinating homeland defense. The Hart-Rudman
report received little attention in the media or at the
White House.
On the eve of the President's speech, White House sources
told The Associated Press he would create a ''Homeland
Defense Security Office'' -- a coordination group, not a
whole new department. At the last minute, the word defense
was dropped. Why? I'm told because it ''sounded
defensive,'' and more probably, ''protecting the internal
security of the homeland would be confused with the
war-making mission of the Department of Defense.''
Thus, in the new lexicon of the war on terror, security
means ''defense''; defense means ''attack.''
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/30/magazine/30ONLANGUAGE.html?ex=1002733318&ei=1&en=7ec0c83b90432d00
HOW TO ADVERTISE
---------------------------------
For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters
or other creative advertising opportunities with The
New York Times on the Web, please contact Alyson
Racer at [log in to unmask] or visit our online media
kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo
For general information about NYTimes.com, write to
[log in to unmask]
Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/