Bill, your point is well taken, that purpose controls choice of material, mode of expression, etcetera. I was thinking of the dimensions of a rhetorical context, which would include purpose, audience, and media, as "sidewise," not heirarchical. Thanks for the clarification -- it was needed. Do we agree that all three dimensions of context affect the grammar? I could quibble with you over what our rhetorical purpose might lead us to say (probably not: "I am going to write literature..." -- which seems like an overly general purpose for writing to me!) (also I wonder if we can assume that narrative is the most common form of literature, if we include essayist literature, which seems increasingly popular?) But the real point of difference between us might be whether (& if so when) to ignore contextual windows when focusing on grammar. And that is probably not a great difference, since we apparently agree in general on the pedagogical value of bringing context to the study of grammar. Again, thanks for the helpful clarification. Judy -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of William J. McCleary Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:10 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: "Lenses" that use grammar Judy, We're kind of getting away from grammar here, but I guess in the end all discourse uses grammar and in turn is at least partially defined by the grammar it uses. I agree, first of all, that "grammar is responsive to all of these: purpose, mode, and media." That's what I said. I also agree that discourse has "(at least) 2 dimensions." However, I don't agree with your sidewise arrangement of aim, mode, and arts/media. We never (well, almost never) decide that "I am going to write a narrative; therefore, I will be writing literature." We say, "I am going to write literature, and I have decided to do it as a narrative" (since narrative is the most common form in which literature is written). Since aim limits both the choice of mode and the grammar used in the mode, that's why I put aim above mode in a hierarchy. (Actually, "I" didn't think this up. The theory comes from someone else.) I would also point out that matters even higher in the hierarchy such as situational and cultural context also can control the choice of mode. If you want to put something on the other dimension, why not put the types of each aim and mode across the page? They are of equal importance in the world, if not in the English department. Like this: Rhetorical aims Persuasive, Literary, Expressive, Expository (informative, etc.) Rhetorical modes Narrative, descriptive, classificatory, evaluative Arts/media Arts: writing, speaking, graphics Media: mass, large group, small group, one-to-one Finally, I agree that "what is tricky, when you bring 'discourse' into questions of grammar, is how we can look sideways through all the different windows while we focus on the level of grammar." I don't agree that it's sidewise, but I do agree that it's tricky to try to ignore other windows to focus on grammar. In one sense, we always must do that. That's how science and education are done--by focusing on one way of looking at reality while agreeing to temporarily ignore the other ways. That's your typical grammar course, as a matter of fact. However, that brings us back to one of the issues we have been discussing on this list--how to make grammar more interesting and learnable for our students. Some argue that the way to do these things is to provide more context--not just grammar but the grammar of literary style or the grammar of dialects, for example. I'm just saying that if you want context for grammar, you can find it at every level of the hierarchy. Bill William J. McCleary Livonia, NY To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/