Bruce, I agree that it the distinction is fuzzy or imagined, but isn't that often the nature of language? Thanks for your explanation. Let's see if I understood it. I'm a baby linguist. I noticed that he curtains were always closed whenever I visited the reclusive artist. This is a gradable adjective with an adverb or extent. Now I'm trying to use curtains and closed in a passive construction and my mind is blank. Can anyone help? Christine Martin -- Christine Reintjes Martin [log in to unmask] >From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> >Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar ><[log in to unmask]> >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: Past participle as Adjective or Verb >Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:43:54 -0700 > >Christine & Carol & al. > >I wonder if this distinction we make between the passive voice of a verb >and >the past participle used as an adjective is more imagined than real. It >seems >clear enough that the decision would help us when it came to translating >our >sentence into Latin or another language where the passive voice has a >distinct >form. Yet even then there are times when their constructions are >ambiguous. >The presence of the adverb of extent ("widely") modifying the participle >makes >us want to claim that the participle is now an adjective for sure. Still, >its >meaning is virtually the same as the agent phrase ("by many people") would >be, >so that translation into an active sentence could occur. So the >distinction >is >not so much in the meaning as it is in the syntax. And in English the >syntactic >differences are negligible, 1) passive voice is more or less clear when >there >is >an agent phrase, and 2) the past participle as a gradable adjective is >clear >when there is an adverb of extent. We're on the borderline when the agent >phrase looks like a manner phrase or when there is no adverb of extent >expressed. > >Bruce > > >>> [log in to unmask] 2/3/2005 1:25:01 PM >>> > >Carol, > >I asked a similar question last year. One explanation I received was that >there are two possibilites with the passive construction. > >The curtains were closed by the nurse. (Obviously passive voice) > >When I entered, the curtains were closed. (More of a description unless the >action happened just as I entered) > >I find this hard to explain to students who are just learning passive >construction and linking verbs. > > > >-- > >Christine Reintjes Martin >[log in to unmask] > > > > > >From: Carol Eisenhower <[log in to unmask]> > >Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > ><[log in to unmask]> > >To: [log in to unmask] > >Subject: Past participle as Adjective or Verb > >Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:47:01 -0500 > > > >Hi All > >I teach a basic grammar class for college freshmen, and the text that > >I'm using identifies the following sentence as S+LV+SC > >"Martin Lurther King Jr. was widely admired." > >To me "was admired" looks like a passive verb phrase similar to the > >following: > >"The children were frightened by the monster." > >Can someone help me with what I'm missing here? > >Thanks > >Carol > > > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >interface > >at: > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > >and select "Join or leave the list" > > > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >This message may contain confidential information, and is >intended only for the use of the individual(s) to whom it >is addressed. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/