Bruce, Thanks. Would you say that "always" can be an adverb modifying the gradable adjective or can be an adverb modifying the verb (in passive construction) Whenever I came I noticed that the curtains were always closed. (adverb modifying gradable adjective) When I arrived, the curtains were always closed by the attendant on duty. (adverb modifying verb) -- Christine Reintjes Martin [log in to unmask] >From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> >Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar ><[log in to unmask]> >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: Past participle as Adjective or Verb >Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 07:55:33 -0700 > >Christine, > >I watched as his curtains were always closed (by his maid) whenever I >visited >the helpless artist. > >I was trying to isolate the fuzziness to a certain domain: semantics or >syntax. > The two domains drive each other. The syntax is how we put the words and >morphemes together. The semantics is how we interpret the arrangement. >The >past participle is a syntactic category. The passive voice (in English) >seems >to me to be a semantic interpretation. When we are taking the past >participle >as an adjective, we are attributing a particular semantic interpretation to >it. >It is like an adjective. If we want to say it is an adjective, which it is >when >we make it gradable (modified by an adverb), we are talking about its >syntax, >its derivational morphology. I think this is the way the linguist would >approach >this situation. > >Bruce > > >>> [log in to unmask] 2/4/2005 7:40:42 AM >>> > >Bruce, > >I agree that it the distinction is fuzzy or imagined, but isn't that often >the nature of language? > >Thanks for your explanation. Let's see if I understood it. I'm a baby >linguist. > >I noticed that he curtains were always closed whenever I visited the >reclusive artist. >This is a gradable adjective with an adverb or extent. > >Now I'm trying to use curtains and closed in a passive construction and my >mind is blank. Can anyone help? > >Christine Martin > > > > > > > >-- > >Christine Reintjes Martin >[log in to unmask] > > > > > >From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> > >Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > ><[log in to unmask]> > >To: [log in to unmask] > >Subject: Re: Past participle as Adjective or Verb > >Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:43:54 -0700 > > > >Christine & Carol & al. > > > >I wonder if this distinction we make between the passive voice of a verb > >and > >the past participle used as an adjective is more imagined than real. It > >seems > >clear enough that the decision would help us when it came to translating > >our > >sentence into Latin or another language where the passive voice has a > >distinct > >form. Yet even then there are times when their constructions are > >ambiguous. > >The presence of the adverb of extent ("widely") modifying the participle > >makes > >us want to claim that the participle is now an adjective for sure. >Still, > >its > >meaning is virtually the same as the agent phrase ("by many people") >would > >be, > >so that translation into an active sentence could occur. So the > >distinction > >is > >not so much in the meaning as it is in the syntax. And in English the > >syntactic > >differences are negligible, 1) passive voice is more or less clear when > >there > >is > >an agent phrase, and 2) the past participle as a gradable adjective is > >clear > >when there is an adverb of extent. We're on the borderline when the >agent > >phrase looks like a manner phrase or when there is no adverb of extent > >expressed. > > > >Bruce > > > > >>> [log in to unmask] 2/3/2005 1:25:01 PM >>> > > > >Carol, > > > >I asked a similar question last year. One explanation I received was that > >there are two possibilites with the passive construction. > > > >The curtains were closed by the nurse. (Obviously passive voice) > > > >When I entered, the curtains were closed. (More of a description unless >the > >action happened just as I entered) > > > >I find this hard to explain to students who are just learning passive > >construction and linking verbs. > > > > > > > >-- > > > >Christine Reintjes Martin > >[log in to unmask] > > > > > > > > > > >From: Carol Eisenhower <[log in to unmask]> > > >Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > > ><[log in to unmask]> > > >To: [log in to unmask] > > >Subject: Past participle as Adjective or Verb > > >Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:47:01 -0500 > > > > > >Hi All > > >I teach a basic grammar class for college freshmen, and the text that > > >I'm using identifies the following sentence as S+LV+SC > > >"Martin Lurther King Jr. was widely admired." > > >To me "was admired" looks like a passive verb phrase similar to the > > >following: > > >"The children were frightened by the monster." > > >Can someone help me with what I'm missing here? > > >Thanks > > >Carol > > > > > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > >interface > > >at: > > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > > >and select "Join or leave the list" > > > > > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >interface > >at: > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > >and select "Join or leave the list" > > > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >This message may contain confidential information, and is > >intended only for the use of the individual(s) to whom it > >is addressed. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >interface > >at: > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > >and select "Join or leave the list" > > > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >This message may contain confidential information, and is >intended only for the use of the individual(s) to whom it >is addressed. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/