Everyone: I always read your discussions and appreciate the fact that you know much more about grammar than I ever will. Here is a question for you experts. We all know that language is fluid and that what is heard is picked up and practiced by many. Recently I seem to be hearing "He is the one that went" or "Those that want ice cream must come to get it!" I was always under the impression that whenever we speak of or refer to people, we should use "who"--"He is the one who went"; "Those who want ice cream...". Has this changed? Was it never true? Thanks for your input. Helene A. Hoover (Cassopolis Public Schools, formerly Ivy Tech and Ball State) >From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]> >Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar ><[log in to unmask]> >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: appositive vs relative clause >Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:29:32 -0500 > >Beth, > >I would add to Bruce's description of the two "that"s: In the >relative clause, "that" has a slot to fill in the clause itself--that >of subject (and this is always true of the relative pronouns and >relative adverbs that introduce adjectival clauses: pronouns fill a >nominal slot or, in the case of the possessive "whose," a determiner >slot; relative adverbs function as an adverbial in the clause); in >the nominal clause, "that" serves only as an introducer, a >nominalizer, with no function in the clause itself. Students who >have learned traditional diagramming can picture the nominalizer >"that" hovering over the clause, like an outsider; they can picture >the relative pronoun firmly settled on or attached to the clause's >main line. > >I call the relative-clause "that" a relative pronoun (I've learned >only recently that this term is debatable); I call the nominalizer >"that" an expletive, as many traditional grammarians do. > >Martha > > > > > >>Beth, >> >>I would like to mention how I approach this with my students. This >>may help, though you seem to reach the same point another way. >> >>One function of an adjective is to identify the reference of a noun. >>The noun also can serve to help identify the reference of another >>noun. This is the appositive. By the same token the noun clause >>and the adjective clause can both have an identifying function. >>There are a good number of particular nouns that need further >>identification, and the noun clause is naturally used with them: >>fact, claim, rumor, statement, decision, idea, etc. These all >>denote concepts which are potentially worded as sentences. In such >>cases it is possible to express (redundantly) both functions >>(identifying adjective/statement) by repeating the connective >>"that." Hence, "They espoused the belief that is that God exists" >>has two connectives. The first "that" is the connective of an >>adjective clause (relative, pointing to "belief") and the second is >>the connective of the noun clause. If you can build this redundant >>construction logically, then you have the appositive. >> >>Bruce >> >>>>> [log in to unmask] 3/9/2005 7:45:48 AM >>> >> >>Thanks, everyone. The "which" test does work on sentence 1, but not >>sentence 2. Maybe we idiomatically prefer "the fact that . . . " or >>maybe I should have agreed that sentence 2 was an appositive? I can see >>that it's definitely an appositive in the sentence "That fact, that they >>didn't like chocolate, surprised her"--but that's not the same >>sentence. >> >>Ultimately, I guess it doesn't matter that much. These sentences won't >>appear on any test--the students wrote the sentences for a different >>activity. I can just agree that sometimes it's really hard to tell what >>a clause is doing, just like it's sometimes really hard to tell what a >>prepositional phrase is doing, and leave it at that. >> >>Thanks, >> >>Beth >> >>>Here are a couple of example sentences with the suspected appositives >>>in brackets: >>> >>>1. The book, [that was titled 'Great Expectations',] was a classic. >>> >>>2. The fact [that they didn't like chocolate] surprised her. >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Beth Rapp Young >><http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~byoung>http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~byoung >> >>University of Central Florida >>From Promise to Prominence: Celebrating 40 Years. >> >>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >>at: >> >><http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>and select "Join or leave the list" >> >>Visit ATEG's web site at <http://ateg.org/>http://ateg.org/ >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>This message may contain confidential information, and is >>intended only for the use of the individual(s) to whom it >>is addressed. >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and >>select "Join or leave the list" >> >>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/