Bruce,
I'm not quite clear about the question you're asking asking. And
please don't be nervous about the infinitive in imperative sentences.
When I use the term "infinitive" to describe the verb form used in
commands, I'm using the term to mean the base form of the verb, a
verb without tense, as shown by commands with "be" (the one verb we
have with a separate base form, a form apart from the present tense):
Be a good boy.
Be nice to your sister.
When we say
Have a nice day.
Come with me to the movies.
we're using the tenseless base form ( and it's the same verb form
that follows modals--will come, might be).
My point about the infinitive is that the term itself says nothing
about function. It's a particular form (with or without "to") that
functions in many ways. By contrast, the term "gerund" specifies
both form (an -ing or -en verb) and function (nominal).
Martha
>Martha,
>
>You have thought a lot about this distinction between form and
>function. Sometimes it seems like nailing jello to the wall. It
>seems rather ingrained in my psyche -- there's this (Germanic,
>historical perspective) idea that there are two -ing forms of a
>verb: one a noun and one an adjective.
>
>I am nervous about the infinitive form being used as an imperative.
>Basicallly it has got to be a noun, doesn't it? "'To be or not to
>be,' that is the question." ("'Being or not being,' that is the
>question.") It seems clear that is a form of a verb for us to use
>as a noun. The imperative is a verb form for us to use in commands.
>What makes it simple to say that the noun form is used in commands?
>Surely it would be going too far to say that the plural noun is used
>for a singular verb: "Now that she has babies she babies her
>husband." The forms are identical! The functions are quite
>opposite. Now I am confused about how a grammarian can know where
>the form vs. function line should be drawn. Does it somehow relate
>to how close the relationship is? And what rates as close enough?
>
>Bruce
>
>>>> [log in to unmask] 3/4/2005 3:37:02 PM >>>
>
>Michael,
>
>As you see, Ed and I agree on the function of "camping" as an
>adverbial. I'd like to expand a bit on the issue of form and
>function in relation to the verbals.
>
>In traditional grammar, as you know, "verbal" serves as an umbrella
>term for infinitives, gerunds, and participles--generally speaking,
>for verbs in their roles other than as the predicating, or main,
>verb of a clause.
>
>The term "infinitive" is straightforward: It refers strictly to
>form, to the base form of the verb, with or without "to." In every
>verb except "be," the infinitive is identical to the present tense:
>to eat, to sleep, to seem. The infinitive--the base form--is the
>form of the verb used in commands (Eat your dinner; Be nice to your
>sister; Have a good day). It's also used adverbially (We took the
>week off to go camping); adjectivally (Our decision to go camping
>turned out to be a disaster); and nominally (We decided to go
>camping). In other words, the term "infinitive" itself tells us
>nothing at all about function. (And note that my description of the
>infinitive--including, as it does, commands--goes beyond the
>traditional definition of "verbal." I could also have mentioned the
>infinitive as a form used in the main verb string, when it follows a
>modal: "You should be nice to your sister.")
>
>The term "gerund," on the other hand, includes both form and
>function; it refers to the -ing or -en forms of the verb when it
>is used nominally--that is, when it fills the function of a noun.
>(Camping is fun; We enjoy camping.) In other words, to call a verb
>a gerund automatically brands it as a nominal.
>
>The term "participle" is a fuzzy one, not at all clear-cut like
>"gerund." "Participle" has two meanings: It traditionally refers
>not only to the -ing and -en forms themselves, known as the present
>participle and past participle--in other words, a designation of
>form--but also to those forms when they are used adjectivally (The
>sleeping baby looks peaceful; The movie directed by Clint Eastwood
>won the Oscar)--a designation of function.
>
>However, despite that traditional limitation of function to
>adjectivals, there are occasions when the -ing form modifies verbs,
>as in Michael's example. So it makes sense to expand on the
>traditional "participle as verbal" definition to include adverbials
>as well as adjectivals. In "A Comprehensive Grammar of the English
>Language," Quirk et al. do precisely that when they discuss (on p.
>506) what they call "obligatory adjuncts" [in other words,
>obligatory adverbials] with certain verbs (sit, stand, come, go)
>such as "He stood waiting," She sat reading," "She came running."
>In other words, these are intransitive verbs that in certain
>contexts are incomplete without adverbials.
>
>I think it's fair to conclude, then, that to limit the
>verbal/participle to "modifier of nouns"--that is, to say that
>participles modify only nouns and not verbs--is not accurate when it
>comes to certain verbs, as described by Quirk et al.--and by Michael.
>
>In Ed's explanation of "We go camping every summer," instead of
>expanding the definition of "participle" to include adverbials, he
>has expanded the definition of gerund. I prefer to leave the
>definition of gerund as an -ing or -en verb that fills a nominal
>function. (While it's true that nouns and noun phrases can indeed
>modify verbs, they are not functioning nominally when they do so;
>they are functioning adverbially.)
>
>(I should mention also that in his KISS grammar Ed has come up with
>a solution to that dual use of the term "participle": He calls the
>adjectival use of -ing and -en verbs "gerundives." )
>
>In my explanations of modern grammar, I try to use traditional
>terminology that has wide acceptance whenever possible, but
>sometimes, as in the case of "participle," that terminology may have
>to be explained in new, more accurate ways; it may have to be
>redefined. Another example, just to make the point clear, is the
>definition of "pronoun": A pronoun generally substitutes for a
>nominal (a complete noun phrase, even a verb phrase or clause)--not
>just a noun, as the traditional definition tells us.
>
>My apologies for going so far afield from camping.
>
>Martha Kolln
>
>
>
>
>>Michael,
>> The KISS Approach to this construction is relatively simple:
>>
>>"Camping" is a gerund.
>>Gerunds function as nouns do.
>>Nouns can function as adverbs.
>>Therefore "camping" is a gerund that functions as a (Noun Used as) an
>>Adverb.
>>
>>Note that the KISS explanation simply uses two concepts that students
>>need to know ("Gerund" and "Noun Used as an Adverb).
>>
>>Ed V.
>>
>>>>> [log in to unmask] 03/04/05 11:34 AM >>>
>> Could anyone offer help on parsing "go camping" in "We go camping
>>every
>>summer."Does camping modify go? Could it be its direct object? I
>>suppose it has to do with how one analyzes "go."
>>
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