I agree, Beth. I keep threatening to design a workshop on how not to use grammar checkers in software programs. They do more harm than good, especially for students who lack the confidence in their own abilities to ignore their computer's bad advice. As someone who was not professionally trained in this area, I am grateful for these discussions! All the remarks and handy suggestions for teaching the appositive will come in handy next year when I teach my department's grammar course again. Best, Nancy Nancy L. Tuten, PhD Professor of English Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program Columbia College Columbia, South Carolina [log in to unmask] 803-786-3706 -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Beth Young Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 1:13 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: appositive vs relative clause > >2. The fact [that they didn't like chocolate] surprised her. Reasons this clause appeared to be adjectival: 1. it tells us more about "the" fact (answering the question "which fact") rather than just renaming "that fact" 2. it can't be set off by commas, at least not without changing the determiner. While writers often have the choice of putting in commas or omitting them in order to indicate whether the appositive is restrictive or nonrestrictive, here there is no choice. But I'm convinced now that the clause IS an "appositive" because the "which" test doesn't work and because the "that" doesn't play a role in its clause. Just to be controversial, I'll add: The that/which rule (about using "that" w/o commas for restrictive clauses and "which" w/commas for nonrestrictive clauses) isn't terribly old (first proposed by Fowler in 1908, I believe) and isn't supported by best practice, so I don't tend to rely on it much. I believe that rule gets attention largely because it was easy for software designers to program into grammar checkers. But hey, that's just the opinion of someone who confused a nominal appositive clause with a relative clause. :) Beth >>> [log in to unmask] 3/9/2005 10:20:34 AM >>> I really don't understand how the clause in the second sentence can be anything other than an appositive. Adding commas doesn't change a thing. In fact, by the "old rules," if we put in the commas, we should change "which" to "that," and clearly that won't work. As one person said, the fact that "which" won't work TELLS us that the clause is clearly an appositive. Nancy ----- Original Message ----- From: Beth Young <[log in to unmask]> Date: Wednesday, March 9, 2005 9:45 am Subject: Re: appositive vs relative clause > Thanks, everyone. The "which" test does work on sentence 1, but not > sentence 2. Maybe we idiomatically prefer "the fact that . . . " or > maybe I should have agreed that sentence 2 was an appositive? I > can see > that it's definitely an appositive in the sentence "That fact, > that they > didn't like chocolate, surprised her"--but that's not the same > sentence. > > Ultimately, I guess it doesn't matter that much. These sentences > won'tappear on any test--the students wrote the sentences for a > differentactivity. I can just agree that sometimes it's really > hard to tell what > a clause is doing, just like it's sometimes really hard to tell > what a > prepositional phrase is doing, and leave it at that. > > Thanks, > > Beth > > >Here are a couple of example sentences with the suspected appositives > >in brackets: > > > >1. The book, [that was titled 'Great Expectations',] was a classic. > > > >2. The fact [that they didn't like chocolate] surprised her. > > > > > > > Beth Rapp Young > http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~byoung > > University of Central Florida > From Promise to Prominence: Celebrating 40 Years. > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/