I am wondering how much of Herb's argument depends on these two examples that he cites. Are these well-formed sentences of English? Not in my books. I might have heard something of the first kind uttered (certainly never written) by someone who got a little "tangled up" in what he wanted to say (performance error). And the second one sounds like something a learner of English as a second language might utter. Here's a book that I know the guy who wrote it. This is the guy met me at the airport. I am surprised that no one else on the list has yet objected to what appears to me to be spurious evidence. I appreciate the reference to Huddleston and Pullum and look forward to investigating their framework for understanding "that." R. Michael Medley Eastern Mennonite University, Harrisonburg, VA 22802 [log in to unmask] (540) 432-4051 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/