Michael, Without knowing more of the nature of your objection the examples, let me suggest that grammatical well-formedness is scalar rather than binary. I regard both of these examples as acceptable in informal writing and speech but not in formal. It's important to recognize that informal writing is not simply less disciplined English; it's English with slightly different rules. But consider also the purpose for which I provided these examples. The first was to illustrate a point about how coreference is expressed. I noted with the example that English doesn't particularly like resumptive pronouns but that they aren't completely rejected. The second was to demonstrate that that-deletion is possible even if a subject is absent. The point of this was to support my contention that relative that is not a pronoun and that in a sentence like "Let me recommend a route that may be quicker" the subject of the relative clause has been deleted. Of course, H&P's example of subject deletion was in a more formal register: Who does she think ___ is the ringleader? where both "that" and the subject are absent. Fortunately my argument doesn't depend crucially on these more peripheral examples. Herb I am wondering how much of Herb's argument depends on these two examples that he cites. Are these well-formed sentences of English? Not in my books. I might have heard something of the first kind uttered (certainly never written) by someone who got a little "tangled up" in what he wanted to say (performance error). And the second one sounds like something a learner of English as a second language might utter. Here's a book that I know the guy who wrote it. This is the guy met me at the airport. I am surprised that no one else on the list has yet objected to what appears to me to be spurious evidence. I appreciate the reference to Huddleston and Pullum and look forward to investigating their framework for understanding "that." R. Michael Medley Eastern Mennonite University, Harrisonburg, VA 22802 [log in to unmask] (540) 432-4051 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/