Herb - That sounds perfectly reasonable to me (for one thing, I can think of plenty of examples with regular nouns after the but). I was just casting about for something that could potentially be analyzed as a relative (and again, I hadn't really thought about that kind of construction before). Playing devil's advocate, though - what other prepositional phrases allow a 'that'-clause as an object? All the ones I can think of off the top of my head require an additional "which," yielding a different structure (about that which X, for that which X, etc.). Could this type of construction be limited enough that Curme thought it better to deal with it as a relative than as a PP? The only other examples I've found so far in FROWN involved clear cases of but coordinating two that-clauses, but I haven't checked any nineteenth-century material yet. Bill Spruiell From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stahlke, Herbert F.W. Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 1:17 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: which and that I think this comes about in a different way. As English was developing a whole array of subordinators, it used most of them with "that". In Middle English and Early Modern English combinations like "which that" "because that", etc. were common. We keep just a few of them in Modern English, like "except that", "now that", and a few others. But in all other cases the "that" has disappeared. I'd argue here that "but" in your sentence is a preposition with a that-clause as its object. Herb _____ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 1:10 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: which and that I've been trying to find relative examples of "but that" in some of the corpora I have. I haven't run across a firm example yet, but I did run across the following, which I hadn't really thought about before, and am now wondering how to analyze (FROWN J31 134-5): There can be no question [[but that]] this resistance emanates from his ego .... This doesn't seem like a relative clause to me, but it's.....relativish. Bill Spruiell Dept. of English Central Michigan University _____ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:20 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: which and that Here's an example from Dickens of "as" as a relative pronoun. Sam Weller says, "...the turnkeys takes wery good care to seize hold o' ev'ry body but them as pays 'em..." I'd like to see some "but" and "but that" examples. ________________________ Richard Veit Department of English, UNCW Wilmington, NC 28403-5947 910-962-3324 -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stahlke, Herbert F.W. Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 8:51 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: which and that Here's another take on relative pronouns. I happened to be checking Curme's Parts of Speech and Accidence this morning, on another matter entirely, when I came across the following in a section headed "Relative Pronouns with Antecedent": "These relative pronouns are who, which, that, as, but, but that, but what (colloquial), the indefinites whoever, whatever, and whichever, and other less common forms enumerated in [his Syntax, the other part of Curme and Kurath's A Grammar of the English Language (HFWS]." I suspect we could get into an interesting discussion of "as", "but", and "but that". Herb TEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ This message may contain confidential information, and is intended only for the use of the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/