Johnanna, Sorry for the problems in my post. I was wrong to infer that non-finite would imply infinitive. I apologize for the oversight and for the bluntness of my response. I was also wrong to use the oxymoronic term "immediate tense." In this case I was trying to say that the time reference of an imperative is normally the time immediately following the time of the utterance. You astutely pointed out the fact that time adverbials can alter this reference to the more distant future. The use of the past form "would" in a request, "Would you turn out the light?" is meant to soften the request rather than place it in the past. I was thinking of the fact that this is an interrogative structure which is interpreted as a polite imperative. In my mind it is asking about the present willingness of the addressee. Of some interest to teachers may be the fact that some languages have a first person imperative that translates into English as "let's." This "auxiliary" has some irregular properties. There are also third person imperatives, that are a bit more difficult to translate in any uniform way, "let them be," "may they be," etc. Bruce >>> [log in to unmask] 3/8/2005 4:55:14 PM >>> Bruce, my original response was to this post of yours: "When I said the imperative was a finite form, I had in mind that there was agreement in the form with 1) the person of the subject ("you" second, understood), and 2) the tense (always immediate, understood). The infinitive doesn't have either person or tense understood. The actual outward form is identical, hence the confusion between form and function with the term. I guess Johanna's metaphor would say we can ride the horse or have it pull our wagon, it's still a horse. In one case we ride bareback and it is relatively unbridled, in the other, it has to be harnessed up and is more connected. Bruce" I guess I have to ask you to define "finite". Also, what is "immediate tense"? My definition of "finite" is "carries a tense marker, whether an overt mark or zero". "Nonfinite" means "not marked for tense", not "infinitive". Hence participles are nonfinite, but not infinitives. When does "would" refer to present time? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics English Department, California Polytechnic State University One Grand Avenue * San Luis Obispo, CA 93407 Tel. (805)-756-2184 * Fax: (805)-756-6374 * Dept. Phone. 756-2596 * E-mail: [log in to unmask] * Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message may contain confidential information, and is intended only for the use of the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/