Martha, I published an article in Language, Sept. 1976, titled "Which that" that demonstrates on syntactic grounds that "that" in a relative clause is not a pronoun but rather the same complementizer found in noun clauses. I've laid out the arguments on this list a couple of times, but there is a strong pedagogical tradition of calling the relative "that" a pronoun, in spite of the fact that it isn't one. Herb Thanks again, Martha and Bruce. These explanations help a great deal. Beth >>> [log in to unmask] 3/9/2005 11:29:32 AM >>> Beth, I would add to Bruce's description of the two "that"s: In the relative clause, "that" has a slot to fill in the clause itself--that of subject (and this is always true of the relative pronouns and relative adverbs that introduce adjectival clauses: pronouns fill a nominal slot or, in the case of the possessive "whose," a determiner slot; relative adverbs function as an adverbial in the clause); in the nominal clause, "that" serves only as an introducer, a nominalizer, with no function in the clause itself. Students who have learned traditional diagramming can picture the nominalizer "that" hovering over the clause, like an outsider; they can picture the relative pronoun firmly settled on or attached to the clause's main line. I call the relative-clause "that" a relative pronoun (I've learned only recently that this term is debatable); I call the nominalizer "that" an expletive, as many traditional grammarians do. Martha >Beth, > >I would like to mention how I approach this with my students. This >may help, though you seem to reach the same point another way. > >One function of an adjective is to identify the reference of a noun. >The noun also can serve to help identify the reference of another >noun. This is the appositive. By the same token the noun clause >and the adjective clause can both have an identifying function. >There are a good number of particular nouns that need further >identification, and the noun clause is naturally used with them: >fact, claim, rumor, statement, decision, idea, etc. These all >denote concepts which are potentially worded as sentences. In such >cases it is possible to express (redundantly) both functions >(identifying adjective/statement) by repeating the connective >"that." Hence, "They espoused the belief that is that God exists" >has two connectives. The first "that" is the connective of an >adjective clause (relative, pointing to "belief") and the second is >the connective of the noun clause. If you can build this redundant >construction logically, then you have the appositive. > >Bruce > >>>> [log in to unmask] 3/9/2005 7:45:48 AM >>> > >Thanks, everyone. The "which" test does work on sentence 1, but not >sentence 2. Maybe we idiomatically prefer "the fact that . . . " or >maybe I should have agreed that sentence 2 was an appositive? I can see >that it's definitely an appositive in the sentence "That fact, that they >didn't like chocolate, surprised her"--but that's not the same >sentence. > >Ultimately, I guess it doesn't matter that much. These sentences won't >appear on any test--the students wrote the sentences for a different >activity. I can just agree that sometimes it's really hard to tell what >a clause is doing, just like it's sometimes really hard to tell what a >prepositional phrase is doing, and leave it at that. > >Thanks, > >Beth > >>Here are a couple of example sentences with the suspected appositives >>in brackets: >> >>1. The book, [that was titled 'Great Expectations',] was a classic. >> >>2. The fact [that they didn't like chocolate] surprised her. > > > > > > >Beth Rapp Young ><http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~byoung>http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~byoung > >University of Central Florida >From Promise to Prominence: Celebrating 40 Years. > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > ><http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at <http://ateg.org/>http://ateg.org/ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >This message may contain confidential information, and is >intended only for the use of the individual(s) to whom it >is addressed. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and >select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/