[log in to unmask] type="cite">Helene, To expand on my cryptic response to Martha, "that" is the older of the two ways of starting a relative clause. "Who" doesn't appear in relative clauses until the 15th century. "That" appears six centuries earlier. At the time, "that", or its ancestor, was not a pronoun. It also is not a pronoun in modern English. It is simply a subordinating conjunction. This addresses directly the question of whether or not "that" can refer to humans. It's a conjunction. Conjunctions don't refer to anything. Using "that" in something like "The man that met me at the airport" is fine because "that" is a subordinating conjunction and doesn't replace the subject or stand for the subject or refer to "the man" because only pronouns refer and it's not a pronoun. The rule that "that" can't refer to humans is a stylistic preference based on a faulty grammatical analysis. I don't claim to be the first to argue that relative "that" isn't a pronoun. Otto Jespersen, probably the greatest grammarian ever in the history of English, argued for it in great detail in the first half of the 20th century. I haven't presented the evidence for the conjunction analysis, because I've done that before on this list, but I'll be glad to if you'd like to see it. Herb Stahlke Another Ball Stater Everyone: I always read your discussions and appreciate the fact that you know much more about grammar than I ever will. Here is a question for you experts. We all know that language is fluid and that what is heard is picked up and practiced by many. Recently I seem to be hearing "He is the one that went" or "Those that want ice cream must come to get it!" I was always under the impression that whenever we speak of or refer to people, we should use "who"--"He is the one who went"; "Those who want ice cream...". Has this changed? Was it never true? Thanks for your input. Helene A. Hoover (Cassopolis Public Schools, formerly Ivy Tech and Ball State)From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]> Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/