From a lurker.
Will someone define the word/term/concept of "sentence" please?
Christine Gray
_____
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Edward Vavra
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 1:25 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Each sentence contains a thought
I agree with what Johanna and many others have said in this thread. I'd
also suggest that the traditional "subject and predicate" derives from the
philosophical "predication." It seems, however, that philosophical
predications, in and of themselves, are beyond the zone of proximal
development of most primary school students. On the other hand,
"predication" as a logical concept, could probably be taught, perhaps as
early as middle school - if the students have a firm grasp of subjects,
finite verbs, and clauses.
As someone noted (forgive me for not being able to keep track of
names), "thought" itself is a difficult concept to define. Thus, I'm happy
to see the agreement that defining a sentence, or even a clause as a
"complete thought" is not at all helpful for students. I'm hoping more
members of this list will become more interested in the questions of natural
syntactic development, especially in grades three through seven. Although I
myself still need to explore many more examples, third graders often add
modifiers as separate sentences (predications). Thus
I live in a big house. It is on a hll.
Kellogg Hunt argues, among other things, that a great deal of syntactic
development in primary school is the result of reduction and embedding - "I
live in a big house on a hill." Thus what appear to be (and may actually be)
"predications" in primary school writing develop into modification in longer
sentences. [Note, by the way, that the adverbial prepositional phrase in "It
is on a hill" turns into an adjectival phrase in the longer version.] I'd
also note that this development is related to the MIMC principle, and I'm
wondering - if students are actually enabled to identify S/V/C patterns,
adjectives, adverbs, and prepositional phrases, will they (the students) be
able to understand, even in primary school, much more about sentence
structure, style, and logic?
Ed
P.S. For Hunt's work, see:
http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/Bib/DevLang.htm
especially "Early Blooming and Late Blooming Syntactic Structures."
>>> [log in to unmask] 10/10/2005 7:38:12 PM >>>
As a few others have noted, "thought" is way to broad a term to name
much of anything about a sentence. "Complete thought" is not any
better.
It would be better to say that a _clause_ (or an independent clause)
expresses a proposition, as Bruce notes. A proposition in logic is a
statement that predicates something of an entity: "The sky is blue"
predicates, or attributes, blueness to the sky. The logical formula is
f(x), meaning "f is predicated of x".
It might look like this corresponds closely to the subject/predicate
division in grammar, but it doesn't, once you move on from linking-verb
sentence patterns. But when you get to transitive and other kinds of
verbs, it doesn't line up so well:
eat(child, cupcake) would be the formula for "The child is eating a
cupcake."
I think I have this right.
Ed also raises the question of what looks like propositions inside of
propositions:
"He lives in a green house."
Noun phrases with adjectives can be viewed as compressions of
propositions, as can nominalized clauses such as the subject of
_The corporation's outsourcing of customer service calls_ has led to
complaints.
There was once a theory of syntax that proposed that, indeed, even noun
phrases with adjectival modifiers were derived from "deep" clauses; the
theory was called generative semantics. As you can imagine, the
derivation of quite ordinary sentences grew quite cumbersome.
In any case, the logical-proposition idea is a good one, because it
shows the crucial role of the main verb. It is the verb that determines
the sentence pattern (linking, transitive, and so on).
People concerned with correctness want sentences to "express a complete
thought". A much better criteria for valid sentencehood (that is, the
quality of being able to "stand alone") are (a) presence of a finite
(present- or past-marked) verb and (b) the item is not a modifier or
complement in a larger sentence (e.g., a relative [adjective] or adverb
clause).
For relatively short sentences, there are two pretty good tests.
(1) Can the sentence appear in the blank in the following?
"I am convinced that ____."
(2) Can you add a tag to the sentence?
"The hurricane wrought devastation across large areas of the Gulf
coast, _didn't it_?"
Dr. Johanna Rubba, Associate Professor, Linguistics
Linguistics Minor Advisor
English Department
California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
Tel.: 805.756.2184
Dept. Ofc. Tel.: 805.756.2596
Dept. Fax: 805.756.6374
URL: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
Dr. Johanna Rubba, Associate Professor, Linguistics
Linguistics Minor Advisor
English Department
California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
Tel.: 805.756.2184
Dept. Ofc. Tel.: 805.756.2596
Dept. Fax: 805.756.6374
URL: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
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