I'd wholeheartedly agree on reserving judgment about the construction's awkwardness. From the scans I've done on corpora, it's certainly not rare in published writing (and yes, I know, Bulwer-Lytton got published (a lot), so publication is a fallible measure of linguistic grace; still, it can be used as a kind of basement measure). It is, I would argue, substantively different from cases with the "according to" construction, since the "In Xpro's[source], X says" format allows stipulation of the source, while "According to X, Xpro says" adds no real new information. In fact, learning how to use the former - in moderation - allows students to vary the way in which they include source citation material in research writing. If we were to discourage all constructions that particular students overuse, we'd have very little language left. Bill Spruiell [PS - except for the expressions "In our modern society" and "In America today." Those are just evil, and are doubtless accelerating the melting of the polar ice caps.] ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 2:15 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Syntax question Herb, johanna, I agree with both you guys, but we need to be careful about taking this kind of editing out of context, the context of the text and the context of the student's evolution as a writer. Think about the following sequence as possible: "In Hrothgar's speech to Beowulf, he gives warning of the corruption of the desire for fame. In his actions, he shows a desire for fame of his own." (I know I'm abusing Hrothgar unfairly. He's not a hypocrite.) In this case, the marked theme opening may be positioning the writer for important juxtapositions (or reinforcements) of meaning. In the hands of a good writer, these openings can be very purposeful, very powerful. And I'm not sure they happen more in speech than in writing. I don't remember the exact research on this, but wasn't it traditional to discourage adverbial openings until someone (Francis Christiansen?) found so many of them in the work of our best writers? (My memory says as many as 40% of all sentences for some writers, but I'm doing that from memory.) I remember it being given as an undergraduate example of how handbooks can be misleading, and it helps to look at the work of real writers. "In the beginning, God created heaven and earth." I'm not sure "in the beginning" isn't well chosen as a point of departure. I wouldn't present this as an editing problem without looking at extended texts and without looking at times and places where marked themes (anything other than grammatical subject as sentence opener) are used well. I know that writing tends to put more meaning into clauses than speech does, but portioning out meaning is also sometimes very effective. "Give me liberty or death" is not, to me, nearly as effective as "Give me liberty or give me death." The second gives proper weight to liberty. Form echoes meaning. Peter Elbow is working on a project he calls "Enlisting the virtues of speech," and Joseph Williams covers some of that ground in his Ten Easy Lessons... books. Lexically dense, highly nominalized texts are often almost unreadable. Sometimes the worst advice you can give a student is to emulate academic writing. Craig Stahlke, Herbert F.W. wrote: Johanna, I was trying to find a way to express my preference for the name as subject and pronoun in the topic structure, and you've done that nicely. You're right that this sort of topic-comment structure is one that shows up often with inexperienced writers, but it's also one that is more difficulty to explain and guard against if you don't have vocabulary and concepts, like topic, comment, and subject, to work with, not to mention pronoun and antecedent. Herb Subject: Re: Syntax question "In Hrothgar's speech to Beowulf, he gives warning of the corruption of the desire for fame." It's interesting to know that the prohibition on this kind of cataphor is invented. I would object to the sentence on stylistic grounds. The two potential male antecedents should be avoided, even though the context makes clear which one "he" refers to. Apart from that, my problem with the sentence is that the sentence is a typical topic-comment structure. These occur with annoying frequency in the writing of my students. I believe they are an instance of speech-like structure being transferred to writing. Students tend to spread information out over the clause more than is necessary for a reader. A more-compact structure would be "In his speech to Beowulf, Hrothgar gives warning of the corruption of the desire for fame." or "Hrothgar, in his speech to Beowulf, gives warning of the corruption of the desire for fame." Both of these place the proper name in subject position, which is better stylistically if Hrothgar is the current topic. Similar structures that occur in my students' writing are along the following lines: "In Deborah Tannen's book 'You Just Don't Understand', she claims that ... " or, even worse, "In the book 'You Just Don't Understand', it states that ..." The "dummy subject" of the latter example just adds words. Dr. Johanna Rubba, Associate Professor, Linguistics Linguistics Minor Advisor English Department California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo E-mail: [log in to unmask] Tel.: 805.756.2184 Dept. Ofc. Tel.: 805.756.2596 Dept. Fax: 805.756.6374 URL: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/