Gerundive is a translation of modus gerundivus, a Late Latin grammatical term describing the Latin deverbal adjective in -nd having the meaning, "capable of being V" or "required to be V", as in the name Amanda, "one who is to be loved." The formal difference between the gerund and the gerundive in Latin is that the gerund is a noun and so has its own gender while the gerundive is an adjective and therefore agrees with the noun it modifies in case, number, and gender. Both have the form verb stem + thematic vowel + nd + desinence. I agree that we create difficulties when we decide to give it a new meaning, and that is my objection to Ed's use of it in KISS. However, it's a fairly trivial sin as these things go, and if people start using this term for English -ing forms then at least we have a single, agreed-upon name for them. Herb -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Jane Saral Sent: Wed 10/5/2005 6:19 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: A Lesson on "Be" Verbs "Gerundive" is not a Latin word. It is an English word describing a Latin form. So I think we create difficulties when we decide to give it a new meaning. Jane >>> [log in to unmask] 10/05/05 16:16 PM >>> Exactly, and if terms are supposed to be appropriate to the language they are used to describe, then participle/gerund/gerundive all make sense for Latin because Latin has three different forms, although gerunds and gerundives do look largely alike. However, and this is my argument, they don't work for English because English has a suffix that forms verbal derivatives that correspond to a partial subset of the Latin forms and also cover other things than the Latin forms do. I have no objection to referring to verbal derivatives in -ing as one or another of the Latin terms just to give them a name, for those who don't like "-ing form", but let's recognize that these forms are not the same things that the terms label in other languages. We get into a little trouble here with the etymological fallacy: because the term we choose means a certain thing in Latin, where the term comes from, it must mean that in English also. But it doesn't and we shouldn't expect it to. But I agree with Ed that we should pick a term and stick with it. I think his choice of "gerundive" is unfortunate, but then I don't like canned green beans either. Herb I think the problem with the term "gerundive" occurs because to some people that means a verb form that functions as an adjective (in Latin), while a "gerund" is a verb form that functions as a noun (in Latin and in English). Jane Saral To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/