From Johanna: -----Original Message----- From: Johanna Rubba [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 3:10 PM To: Rogers, Kathryn (HRW-ATX) Subject: Re: using "before" Kathryn, Could you post this to the list for me? I rather dread seeing the discussion of prescriptivism/descriptivism raise its head again. This discussion has happened so often on this list, and it seems to go around and around the same points every time. What a "descriptivist" who nevertheless maintains high standards for good writing might object to in Kathryn's phraseology is the word "improving". This is a wide-scope word; it is not focused on any particular aspect of writing, be it organization, cohesiveness, punctuation, or sentence grammar. There is also an assumption that there is already something wrong with the student's writing abilities. This is usually true, but unfortunately, the widespread social mindset that speech is unstructured language, and that "proper grammar" is part of both "good spoken language" and "good writing" encourages the outlook that students are linguistically incompetent _in general_. It is important to be very clear to students exactly what needs to be improved: thinking before and during the writing process, and revising first with clarity, information flow, and soundness of reasoning in mind. This can be done in any variety of English. The most healthy approach to "correct grammar" and all that it entails is comparative: explicitly compare speech and writing; explicitly compare the grammars of spoken English, informal English, and nonstandard varieties with the grammar of standard written English. Emphasize that the approach is _additive_, not _corrective_: whatever language the students have used in their lives so far has served them quite adequately; the mission of school is to _expand_ their linguistic repertoire, not replace the English they already know and use with another. Above all, separate the ability to produce standard English from inherent intelligence and ability to think and express oneself well. All varieties of English can be used effectively. If a child has not learned standard English, it is not the child's fault. Child learn what they are exposed to and what they want to learn. Dr. Johanna Rubba, Associate Professor, Linguistics Linguistics Minor Advisor English Department California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo E-mail: [log in to unmask] Tel.: 805.756.2184 Dept. Ofc. Tel.: 805.756.2596 Dept. Fax: 805.756.6374 URL: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/