Hi, Cynthia: I guess the way to test Johanna's explanation concerning the structure of the sentence under discussion would be to place it into a tree structure. I would be very curious to see how Johanna would structure that tree. Eduard >Cynthia Baird <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > At the risk of continuing a thread that may need to die a decent death, I want to post an excited response--excited because as a mere (in comparison to some of the regular respondents) high school English teacher, I find that I agree with Herb, and I think Johanna (both of whom I deeply admire from their frequent and helpful posts) about this sentence! If this were my student, I would immediately compliment him for his original sentence (compared to most high school students), and I would correct his comma error, but I would immediately explain to him that he had cleverly placed a participial phrase in the subject slot of the sentence, creating a very inversive type of sentence! I don't understand all of the existential stuff, nor would my high school student! > > I appreciate all of the respondents to posts--you have helped me so much as a teacher, even if some of the more sophisticated discussion go over my head! > >"John E. Dews" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > As usual, I particularly enjoy Herb's perspective here (although I also appreciate the different ways in which others have approached this sentence -- it reminds me that there is no single, perfect answer). > "Running from the back of his skull down to the front is a patch of white hair that opens up into his lips." > If, as Herb suggests (as I understood it), the phrase in subject position here is an adjectival participle, then I have another question. Does this "bend" the basic tenant/tendency in English for there to be a nominal in subject position? Or do we say that the phrase is both adjectival and nominal in function (even though the phrase doesn't seem to act/"feel" much like a noun phrase and is nominal only in the sense that! it is in subject position)? Have syntax studies shown this to be a common pattern in English? I can't seem to find a reference for participle phrases functioning nominally/in subject position. Our own Martha Kolln deals with participles strictly as adjectivals in her Understanding English Grammar. > Sorry for so many questions, but I am intrigued (aren't we a peculiar bunch to be intrigued by such things!). Thanks! > Jed Dews > >"Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > A fascinating sentence, both image and structure, and an interesting set of analyses. So let's try another one. It's an existential sentence in which the original verb phrase becomes a participial phrase and replaces the subject "there", with a derivation, for those of us who like derivations, so! mething like this: > >A patch of white hair that opens up into his lips runs from the back of his skull down to the front. > >Since English tends! to avoid indefinites in subject position, this sentence is better expressed as the existential > >There is a patch of white hair that opens up into his lips, running from the back of his skull down to the front. (I put in a comma simply to avoid confusion with running lips (sink ships?).) > >This writer then has cleverly moved the participial phrase into subject position, maybe because some teacher once said not to start a sentence with "there is", giving us > >Running from the back of his skull down to the front is a patch of white hair that opens up into his lips. > >The reasons for considering it an existential sentence are the indefinite postposed subject and the copula, further supported by the otherwise anomalous participial phrase subject. > >The comma, I think, is unrelated to any of this. Rather, the! re is a tendency among inexperienced writers, and experienced ones as well, to insert a comma between a long subject and the verb. > >Herb > > >A ! student wrote the following sentence in an essay: > >Running from the back of his skull down to the front, is a patch of white >hair that opens up into his lips. >The comma doesn't belong there, but I'm not sure why. Is the "Running" >phrase a gerund? If so, then I understand why the comma is wrong: it >separates the subject from the verb However, the phrase doesn't behave like >a gerund. Compare: > >Running around the lake is a part of my daily routine. --> It is a part of >my daily routine. --> A part of my daily routine is running around the >lake. > >In this sentence, the "Running" phrase behaves like a true noun phrase in a >linking verb sentence. My student's "Running" phrase doesn't behave like an >NP. It feels participial, modifying "patch". If so, then the comma would >be correct.! But it's not. > >Any ideas out there? > >John > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: >http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: >http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > > ***************************************************************** > John E. Dews > Instructor, Undergraduate Linguistics > MA-TESOL/Applied Linguistics Program > Educator, Secondary English Language Arts > English Department, 208 Rowand-Johnson Hall (Office) > University of Alabama > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > Brings words and photos together (easily) with >PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > >--------------------------------- > Yahoo! Mail >Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > >"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128). > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/