Dear Eduard, Please stop. Stop using ALL CAPITALS as it is SHOUTING. Stop insulting list members. Stop being rude to Johanna Rubba. Stop forgetting that she's a respected member of this list. Stop being off-topic (as it drives me off-topic as well - this silly message is proof). Please stop. Elek Budapest, Hungary (no credentials, author of *four* books you haven't read, very poor linguist, not even native speaker, lurking list member, easily annoyed, poster of irrelevant messages, hater of myths, fighter against provincialism, belonging to a different world than yours) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eduard C. Hanganu" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 4:01 PM Subject: Re: Breaking the Rules > Dear Craig: > > I don't know why you posted this message. Who is Johanna Rubba? From > the list of "credentials" at the bottom of her message she appears to > be a mere instructor of Linguistics. I don't know what makes her > think that she is an expert in language. Her e-mail is nothing more > than an uninformed DIATRIBE, which breaks the rules of courtesy and > decency she talkes about. While she chides me for *insulting* some > people, her message contains no less than a dozen of offensive and > gratuitous comments on my behalf. > > She tosses two books around (which, by the way, I have read), to > *prove* that I don't know what I am talking about. Should I return > the favor and ask her about the books *she did not read*? I find > nothing relevant or of value in her message. As I said, it is all a > diatribe which mixes ignorance with myth and insults. If you call her > nonsense a "fine articulation" then we belong to different worlds. > > Do you know of any forum where people discuss language and grammar in > an informed, and scholarly manner, free of provincialism and myths? > > > Eduard > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 17 Mar 2006, Craig Hancock wrote... > > >---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------- > ----= > >- > > I'm forwarding another thoughtful post from Johanna. > > I think polemical positions are less dangerous when expressed > (I'm > >thinking of Eduard's post), but that's in part because they provoke > >fine articulations like those I'm relaying. ATEG brings people > >together from different places. Johanna raises important issues > about > >mutual respect and collegiality. > > > >Craig > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: Language Change > >From: "Johanna Rubba" <[log in to unmask]> > >Date: Fri, March 17, 2006 2:35 pm > >To: "Craig Hancock" <[log in to unmask]> > >Cc: [log in to unmask] > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----= > >- > > > >Hi, Craig, > > > >Although my take on these "polemics" is different from yours, I hope > >you'll post this. I don't find these polemics at all delightful. To > >treat baseless claims about language as legitimate opinions is > harmful > >and misleading to those listers who haven't had the opportunity to > >study language deeply. > > > >I'd like to ask Eduard Hanganu to please study the situation a little > >more carefully before he starts throwing around offensive claims > about > >Americans and linguists, etc. It's just plain rude to call the > >findings (note I do not say "beliefs") of lifelong scholars of > language > >NONSENSE. Putting the words in caps is not exactly diplomatic. > > > >Eduard's ethnocentrism is obvious, and his claims about language and > >linguistics are spurious. It's about time he realized that he is in > >dialogue with scholars, like Herb Stahlke, whose knowledge of many > >aspects of English and language in general is extraordinary and far > >outstrips my own. Eduard is speaking anecdotally from his own > >experience, as well as drawing in studies that are irrelevant to how > >much speakers _subconsciously_ know about their language. A lot of > this > >knowledge is laid out in, for example, the Quirk et al. grammar of > >English and the newer Huddleston and Pullum. I'd like to ask Eduard > how > >many school or college textbooks cover even 1% of that material, and > >yet it is drawn from descriptions of the use of English by English > >speakers (some with a lot of education, some not). I'd also like to > ask > >him how far he has read into either book. The fact that he appeals to > >institutions like the Academie Fran=E7aise (yes, a few of us know > about > >it) proves his misunderstanding of sociolinguistics and the history > of > >how such institutions arise in stratified societies. Those who > believe > >in such institutions have a serious misunderstanding of how language > >works. It's very practical to cultivate a lingua franca (or dialect > >franca?) to sustain communication across the boundaries of speech > >communities. (I don't like calling it a standard dialect anymore, > >because "standard" is ambiguous between a neutral interpretation, > such > >as standard measurements, and an evaluative stance, such as "standard > >of excellence".) But there is no need to attach false claims to such > a > >language variety. It is not superior to other dialects. It may be so > in > >the sense that it has a large vocabulary, but that is a historical > >accident. Any language's vocabulary can be expanded. One might indeed > >say that English came about most of those words dishonestly -- too > >weak to invent them themselves, English speakers took them from other > >"superior" languages like Latin and Greek. Many languages and > dialects > >have more subtlety in their grammar than "preferred" English does. > They > >express distinctions such as remote vs. recent past and temporary vs. > >long-lasting states in the verb system (both characteristics of > African > >American English), not in separate phrases. English morphology is > >"impoverished" compared to, say Turkish or Inuktitut. Such > comparisons > >are fruitless. Are the complex verb systems better than the separate > >phrases? Can Inuktitut express a wider range of meanings than > English? > >There's more than one way to skin a cat. > > > >Every culture, literate or not, has a language that has the full > >potential to express whatever concepts the culture comes up with. > This > >has been true for many thousands of years, well before Romania spoke > >Romanian and those TWO THOUSAND years of history got started. America > >has a history going back at least TEN THOUSAND years of indigenous > >languages that are as complex and beautiful as a particle > accelerator. > >Funny how most of them were never written. I wonder how much Eduard > >knows about Navajo verbs or Mikasuki tone systems. The history of > >literacy and scholarship of a culture has nothing to do with the > >quality or expressive potential of its language. > > > >I am in full agreement with Eduard on one thing -- the level of > general > >and specific world knowledge, not language, is abysmal in far too > many > >parts of the United States. This can't all be blamed solely on the > >schools, and it has nothing at all to do with language. We have a > >fundamentally anti-intellectual culture (which is ironic, given that > >the country was founded by intellectuals of a high order). People are > >happy with their MacDonald's bread and their NFL circuses (get the > >reference to ancient Rome?) Those who have the resources to improve > the > >schools (taxpayers, the government, and the hyper-rich corporations > and > >stockholders) choose to invest that money elsewhere or keep it to > >themselves. They also choose, often for purely political reasons, to > >ignore the wisdom of those who study language for a living. Too many > of > >them have Eduard's understanding of language. As a result, millions > of > >children are essentially thrown into the garbage bin -- prison, > >permanent low-wage jobs, low standards of living, poor health care, > the > >list goes on and on. Back in the late 1970's, an experiment was > carried > >out in which African American children were taught reading in a > program > >that transitioned them from books in their native dialect on themes > >familiar to them to the "preferred" English texts used in general > >language arts instruction. Those children made six months' gain in > >reading ability in four months of using the program, and tested just > >fine on a national standardized reading test for their grade level. > The > >publisher (I believe it was Houghton-Mifflin) decided not to market > the > >program because of the stigma of African American English. What do we > >say to the many thousands of children who never got to benefit from > >such a program? They become dropouts, gang members, prisoners, teen > >parents, and many of them die at an early age thanks to the violence > in > >their communities. The public school system teaches middle-class > >children to read and write in their native dialect. Why are they the > >only ones deserving of this treatment? (In telling this story, I am > not > >acceding to the superiority of "preferred English". The > >socially-determined facts on the ground are that children need to be > >fluent in this dialect to have equal opportunity. The point is that > it > >is not necessary -- indeed it is harmful -- to endow that dialect > with > >some kind of intellectual superiority.) > > > >This list is intended for civilized discussion. It is of no benefit > to > >make baseless claims and insult whole populations. It is not in the > >spirit of the list to be rude. I realize that I may have crossed that > >line myself in this message, but perhaps the same tone is needed to > >bring the point home. Or perhaps Eduard is like far too many people > >engaging in "debate" today under the guise of "fair and balanced" > >public discussion, who simply will never admit that they are wrong > >about something no matter how many facts you throw at them. > > > >Dr. Johanna Rubba, Associate Professor, Linguistics > >Linguistics Minor Advisor > >English Department > >California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo > >E-mail: [log in to unmask] > >Tel.: 805.756.2184 > >Dept. Ofc. Tel.: 805.756.2596 > >Dept. Fax: 805.756.6374 > >URL: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba > > > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > >and select "Join or leave the list" > > > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/