As someone who has not participated in this unfortunate "discussion," I want to express my appreciation for Joanna's contributions to this list, which I have found exceptionally informative. As for her detractor(s?), there is no conducting a civil discourse with some people, and efforts to reply reasonably only result in escalating craziness. I strongly urge that we bring an end to this pettiness. The only way to do that is to resolutely ignore posts from such people. Just do not reply, no matter how provoking the comments. Just do not reply. Maybe then we can get back to talking about grammar. Dick Veit To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/