Hello, all! This is supposed to be a "grammar lovers" forum, right? But why are so many post on this list from people who atack grammar and state that teaching grammar does not make sense, and makes no difference in writing? The explanation appears to be quite simple: these people do not like grammar, do not understand grammar, and do not want to teach grammar. Their posts indicate that they are fighting as hard as they can to avoid the inevitable. Of course, grammar cannot cause any improvement in student writing if those who "teach" it have no idea what grammar is and how to teach it. What role model, or inspiration can a teacher who fumbles around and is in confusion about grammar could be for students? I had a few of such teachers and instructors, and often I had to teach them myself what they needed to know in order to qualify for teaching. If I did not like grammar I would not bother to be on this list. What for? To read again and again about others love and I hate? Part of the endless harangue in the forum is caused by the situation I have just described, people who love grammar fighting with people who hate it. In the meantime, some people do the quiet and unrewarded work of teaching their students Standard English in spite of the attacks on them and the displeasure of the grammar haters. Eduard To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/