Phil:For TESL certification, or an MA TESL, prospective teachers often study syntax, semantics, pragmatics, sociolinguistics, and discourse analysis. Is this not grammar in use? I believe it is. Peace,David BrownEFL/ESL teacherLong Beach, CA--- On Wed 08/30, Phil Bralich < [log in to unmask] > wrote:
From: Phil Bralich [mailto: [log in to unmask]]To: [log in to unmask]: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 07:46:49 -0700Subject: Re: Grammar CertificationThat's nice, but it still leaves room for someone not to know that participial phrase and a reduced adejective clause are the same thing. A certification test for grammar alone independent of getting a Master's would be a real service for those who want and can teach grammar and for those who want to hire qualified grammar teachers. It is also one more line, one more certification on a C.V. so it cannot be a bad thing. This would have been the best response to reports that grammar study was somehow unimportant or ineffective. I have always been convinced that most of the anti-grammar movement got its support primarily from those afraid of being called to account for an insufficient background in grammar. To this day whenever I hear someone extolling anti-grammar attitudes I immediately know they will be EXTREMELY defensive abou!
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:47:27 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: dabro <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="MYWAYBOUNDARY_000__3008de65c91fd7b314ceda2a9bee4bb4";
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
--MYWAYBOUNDARY_000__3008de65c91fd7b314ceda2a9bee4bb4
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thanks, Herb. And there's more: http://www.amazon.com/s/102-6810170-2775324?ie=UTF8&index=books&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank&field-author-exact=Talmy%20Givon Peace, David --- On Wed 08/30, Stahlke, Herbert F.W. < [log in to unmask] > wrote:From: Stahlke, Herbert F.W. [mailto: [log in to unmask]]To: [log in to unmask]: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:37:18 -0400Subject: Re: Grammar CertificationDabro,I purposely avoided that question. _Running through the Tall Grass_, bythe way, is also a wonderful 1997 novel by a superb linguist, TalmyGivon, which you can get incredibly cheaply from Amazon.Herb-----Original Message-----From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of dabroSent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 12:31 PMTo: [log in to unmask]: Re: Grammar CertificationHerb, Who was "running through the tall grass"? Peace, David --- OnWed 08/30, Stahlke, Herbert F.W. &lt; [log in to unmask]
&gt; wrote:From:Stahlke, Herbert F.W. [mailto: [log in to unmask]]To:[log in to unmask]: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:21:20 -0400Subject:Re: Grammar CertificationYour example raises the question of what shouldbe on such a test, whichgets us right back to the question of what agrammar curriculum shouldcover. The guard saw the escapee runningthrough the tall grass."Running through the tall grass" here can beeither an adjective clauseor an object complement, although I find theOC interpretation moreobvious. If I front the participial phrase,Running through the tall grass, the guard saw the escapee, it becomesadverbial. But we're still back to the question of what people shouldknow if theyare to know grammar.Herb-----Original Message-----From:Assembly for the Teaching of EnglishGrammar[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Phil To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's webinterface at:http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or
leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
_______________________________________________
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--MYWAYBOUNDARY_000__3008de65c91fd7b314ceda2a9bee4bb4
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<table cellpadding=3 cellspacing=0 border=0 width=100% bgcolor=white><tr valign=top><td width=100%><font size=2 color=black>Thanks, Herb. And there's more:<br> <br><A href="http://www.amazon.com/s/102-6810170-2775324?ie=UTF8&index=books&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank&field-author-exact=Talmy%20Givon">http://www.amazon.com/s/102-6810170-2775324?ie=UTF8&index=books&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank&field-author-exact=Talmy%20Givon</A><br> <br>Peace,<br> <br>David <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--- On Wed 08/30, Stahlke, Herbert F.W. < [log in to unmask] > wrote:<BR><br><BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 7px; MARGIN-LEFT: 7px; BORDER-LEFT: orange 2px solid"><B>From: </B>Stahlke, Herbert F.W. [mailto: [log in to unmask]]<BR><B>To: </B>[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Date: </B>Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:37:18 -0400<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: Grammar Certification<BR><BR>Dabro,<BR><BR>I purposely avoided that question. _Running through the Tall
Grass_, by<BR>the way, is also a wonderful 1997 novel by a superb linguist, Talmy<BR>Givon, which you can get incredibly cheaply from Amazon.<BR><BR>Herb<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<BR>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of dabro<BR>Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 12:31 PM<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Subject: Re: Grammar Certification<BR><BR>Herb, Who was "running through the tall grass"? Peace, David --- On<BR>Wed 08/30, Stahlke, Herbert F.W. &lt; [log in to unmask] &gt; wrote:From:<BR>Stahlke, Herbert F.W. [mailto: [log in to unmask]]To:<BR>[log in to unmask]: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:21:20 -0400Subject:<BR>Re: Grammar CertificationYour example raises the question of what should<BR>be on such a test, whichgets us right back to the question of what a<BR>grammar curriculum shouldcover. The guard saw the escapee running<BR>through the tall grass."Running through the tall grass" here can
be<BR>either an adjective clauseor an object complement, although I find the<BR>OC interpretation moreobvious. If I front the participial phrase,<BR>Running through the tall grass, the guard saw the escapee, it becomes<BR>adverbial. But we're still back to the question of what people should<BR>know if theyare to know grammar.Herb-----Original Message-----From:<BR>Assembly for the Teaching of English<BR>Grammar[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Phil <BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<BR>interface at:<BR>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<BR>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></font></td></tr></table><p><hr><font size=2
face=verdana><span style='font-weight:bold'>No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.</span><br>Make My Way your home on the Web - <a href=http://www.myway.com target=_blank>http://www.myway.com</a></font></b>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--MYWAYBOUNDARY_000__3008de65c91fd7b314ceda2a9bee4bb4--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:01:09 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Bralich <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
The difficulty I am talking about is that those who take those classes often have trouble recognizing and communicating the parts of speech, parts of sentence, and sentence types as well as relations between sentences and clauses. They may have some interesting views but they lack this basic knowledege. It is missing because it was ignored in elementary school, ignored in secondary school and presupposed in post secondary and graduate school. The certificate, takes the problem of remediation out of the formal programs and leaves it to a separte certificate program. This would be good for community colleges to offer and useful for all professionals to demonstrate they had the basic skills rather. And don't forget most leaving those programs you refer to simply do not have the skills we are talking about.
Phil Bralich
-----Original Message-----
>From: dabro <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Aug 30, 2006 12:39 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
>
> Phil:For TESL certification, or an MA TESL, prospective teachers often study syntax, semantics, pragmatics, sociolinguistics, and discourse analysis. Is this not grammar in use? I believe it is. Peace,David BrownEFL/ESL teacherLong Beach, CA--- On Wed 08/30, Phil Bralich < [log in to unmask] > wrote:
>From: Phil Bralich [mailto: [log in to unmask]]To: [log in to unmask]: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 07:46:49 -0700Subject: Re: Grammar CertificationThat's nice, but it still leaves room for someone not to know that participial phrase and a reduced adejective clause are the same thing. A certification test for grammar alone independent of getting a Master's would be a real service for those who want and can teach grammar and for those who want to hire qualified grammar teachers. It is also one more line, one more certification on a C.V. so it cannot be a bad thing. This would have been the best response to reports that grammar study was somehow unimportant or ineffective. I have always been convinced that most of the anti-grammar movement got its support primarily from those afraid of being called to account for an insufficient background in grammar. To this day whenever I hear someone extolling anti-grammar attitudes I immediately know they will be EXTREMELY defensive abo!
u!
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:33:38 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: dabro <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="MYWAYBOUNDARY_000__06e1dd34e317e764d3465cb867d2eb5f";
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
--MYWAYBOUNDARY_000__06e1dd34e317e764d3465cb867d2eb5f
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Phil:
From Wikipedia: In linguistics, Syntax, originating from the Greek words συν (syn, meaning "co-" or "together") and τάξις (táxis, meaning "sequence, order, arrangement"), is the study of the rules, or "patterned relations" that govern the way the words in a sentence come together. It concerns how different words (which, going back to Dionysios Thrax, are categorized as nouns, adjectives, verbs, etc.) are combined into clauses, which, in turn, are combined into sentences. Syntax attempts to systematize descriptive grammar, and is unconcerned with prescriptive grammar (see Prescription and description).
There are many theories of formal syntax — theories that have in time risen or fallen in influence. Most theories of syntax share at least two commonalities. First, they hierarchically group subunits into constituent units (phrases). Second, they provide some system of rules to explain patterns of acceptability/grammaticality and unacceptability/ungrammaticality. Most formal theories of syntax offer explanations of the systematic relationships between syntactic form and semantic meaning. Syntax is defined, within the study of signs, as the first of its three subfields (the study of the interrelation of the signs). The second subfield is semantics (the study of the relation between the signs and the objects to which they apply), and the third is pragmatics(the relationship between the sign system and the user).
Peace,
David
--- On Wed 08/30, Phil Bralich < [log in to unmask] > wrote:
From: Phil Bralich [mailto: [log in to unmask]]To: [log in to unmask]: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:01:09 -0400Subject: Re: Grammar CertificationThe difficulty I am talking about is that those who take those classes often have trouble recognizing and communicating the parts of speech, parts of sentence, and sentence types as well as relations between sentences and clauses. They may have some interesting views but they lack this basic knowledege. It is missing because it was ignored in elementary school, ignored in secondary school and presupposed in post secondary and graduate school. The certificate, takes the problem of remediation out of the formal programs and leaves it to a separte certificate program. This would be good for community colleges to offer and useful for all professionals to demonstrate they had the basic skills rather. And don't forget most leaving those programs you refer to simply do not have the skills we are talking about. Phil Bralich-----Origina!
l
Message----->From: dabro >Sent: Aug 30, 2006 12:39 PM>To: [log in to unmask]>Subject: Re: Grammar Certification>> Phil:For TESL certification, or an MA TESL, prospective teachers often study syntax, semantics, pragmatics, sociolinguistics, and discourse analysis. Is this not grammar in use? I believe it is. Peace,David BrownEFL/ESL teacherLong Beach, CA--- On Wed 08/30, Phil Bralich < [log in to unmask] > wrote:>From: Phil Bralich [mailto: [log in to unmask]]To: [log in to unmask]: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 07:46:49 -0700Subject: Re: Grammar CertificationThat's nice, but it still leaves room for someone not to know that participial phrase and a reduced adejective clause are the same thing. A certification test for grammar alone independent of getting a Master's would be a real service for those who want and can teach grammar and for those who want to hire qualified grammar teachers. It is also one more line, one more certification on
a C.V. so it cannot be a bad thing. This would have been the best response to reports that grammar study was somehow unimportant or ineffective. I have always been convinced that most of the anti-grammar movement got its support primarily from those afraid of being called to account for an insufficient background in grammar. To this day whenever I hear someone extolling anti-grammar attitudes I immediately know they will be EXTREMELY defensive abo!u!>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>and select "Join or leave the list">>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
_______________________________________________
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--MYWAYBOUNDARY_000__06e1dd34e317e764d3465cb867d2eb5f
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<table cellpadding=3 cellspacing=0 border=0 width=100% bgcolor=white><tr valign=top><td width=100%><font size=2 color=black>
<P>Phil:</P>
<P>From Wikipedia: In <A title=Linguistics href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistics">linguistics</A>, <B>Syntax</B>, originating from the <A title="Greek language" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language">Greek</A> words συν (<I>syn</I>, meaning "co-" or "together") and τάξις (<I>táxis</I>, meaning "sequence, order, arrangement"), is the study of the rules, or "patterned relations" that govern the way the words in a sentence come together. It concerns how different words (which, going back to <A title="Dionysios Thrax" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysios_Thrax">Dionysios Thrax</A>, are categorized as <A title=Noun href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noun">nouns</A>, <A title=Adjective href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjective">adjectives</A>, <A title=Verb href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verb">verbs</A>, etc.) are combined into <A title=Clause href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clause">clauses</A>, which,
in turn, are combined into sentences. Syntax attempts to systematize descriptive grammar, and is unconcerned with prescriptive grammar (see <A title="Prescription and description" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescription_and_description">Prescription and description</A>).</P>
<P>There are many theories of <I>formal syntax</I> — theories that have in time risen or fallen in influence. Most theories of syntax share at least two commonalities. First, they hierarchically group subunits into constituent units (phrases). Second, they provide some system of rules to explain patterns of acceptability/grammaticality and unacceptability/ungrammaticality. Most formal theories of syntax offer explanations of the systematic relationships between syntactic form and <A title=Semantic href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic">semantic</A> meaning. Syntax is defined, within the study of <A title=Sign href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign">signs</A>, as the first of its three subfields (the study of the interrelation of the signs). The second subfield is <A title=Semantics href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantics">semantics</A> (the study of the relation between the signs and the objects to which they apply), and the third is <A title=Pragmatics
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatics">pragmatics</A>(the relationship between the sign system and the user).</P>
<P>Peace,</P>
<P>David</P>
<P><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--- On Wed 08/30, Phil Bralich < [log in to unmask] > wrote:<BR></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 7px; MARGIN-LEFT: 7px; BORDER-LEFT: orange 2px solid"><B>From: </B>Phil Bralich [mailto: [log in to unmask]]<BR><B>To: </B>[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Date: </B>Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:01:09 -0400<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: Grammar Certification<BR><BR>The difficulty I am talking about is that those who take those classes often have trouble recognizing and communicating the parts of speech, parts of sentence, and sentence types as well as relations between sentences and clauses. They may have some interesting views but they lack this basic knowledege. It is missing because it was ignored in elementary school, ignored in secondary school and presupposed in post secondary and graduate school. The certificate, takes the problem of remediation out of the formal programs and leaves it to a separte certificate program. This would be good for community colleges to offer and useful for all professionals to demonstrate they had the basic skills rather.
And don't forget most leaving those programs you refer to simply do not have the skills we are talking about. <BR><BR>Phil Bralich<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>>From: dabro <[log in to unmask]><BR>>Sent: Aug 30, 2006 12:39 PM<BR>>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>>Subject: Re: Grammar Certification<BR>><BR>> Phil:For TESL certification, or an MA TESL, prospective teachers often study syntax, semantics, pragmatics, sociolinguistics, and discourse analysis. Is this not grammar in use? I believe it is. Peace,David BrownEFL/ESL teacherLong Beach, CA--- On Wed 08/30, Phil Bralich < [log in to unmask] > wrote:<BR>>From: Phil Bralich [mailto: [log in to unmask]]To: [log in to unmask]: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 07:46:49 -0700Subject: Re: Grammar CertificationThat's nice, but it still leaves room for someone not to know that participial phrase and a reduced adejective clause are the same thing. A certification test for grammar alone independent
of getting a Master's would be a real service for those who want and can teach grammar and for those who want to hire qualified grammar teachers. It is also one more line, one more certification on a C.V. so it cannot be a bad thing. This would have been the best response to reports that grammar study was somehow unimportant or ineffective. I have always been convinced that most of the anti-grammar movement got its support primarily from those afraid of being called to account for an insufficient background in grammar. To this day whenever I hear someone extolling anti-grammar attitudes I immediately know they will be EXTREMELY defensive abo!<BR>u!<BR>><BR>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<BR>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR>><BR>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:<BR>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><br></font></td></tr></table><p><hr><font size=2 face=verdana><span style='font-weight:bold'>No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.</span><br>Make My Way your home on the Web - <a href=http://www.myway.com target=_blank>http://www.myway.com</a></font></b>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--MYWAYBOUNDARY_000__06e1dd34e317e764d3465cb867d2eb5f--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:48:05 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Bralich <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<HEAD>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>Why wouldn't I be aware of this. It's more than a little imperti=
nent to think that I do not. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Phil Bralich<BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px; BORDER-LEFT: #000=
0ff 2px solid">-----Original Message----- <BR>From: dabro <[log in to unmask]>=
<BR>Sent: Aug 30, 2006 1:33 PM <BR>To: [log in to unmask] <BR>Subject=
: Re: Grammar Certification <BR><BR>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D3 width=3D"100%" bgColor=3Dwhite borde=
r=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR vAlign=3Dtop>
<TD width=3D"100%"><FONT color=3Dblack size=3D2>
<P>Phil:</P>
<P>From Wikipedia: In <A title=3DLinguistics href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.or=
g/wiki/Linguistics">linguistics</A>, <B>Syntax</B>, originating from the <A=
title=3D"Greek language" href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_langua=
ge">Greek</A> words συν (<I>syn</I>, meaning "co-" or "toget=
her") and τάξις (<I>t=E1xis</I>, meaning "sequence=
, order, arrangement"), is the study of the rules, or "patterned relations"=
that govern the way the words in a sentence come together. It concerns how=
different words (which, going back to <A title=3D"Dionysios Thrax" href=3D=
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysios_Thrax">Dionysios Thrax</A>, are cat=
egorized as <A title=3DNoun href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noun">noun=
s</A>, <A title=3DAdjective href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjective"=
>adjectives</A>, <A title=3DVerb href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verb"=
>verbs</A>, etc.) are combined into <A title=3DClause href=3D"http://en.wik=
ipedia.org/wiki/Clause">clauses</A>, which, in turn, are combined into sent=
ences. Syntax attempts to systematize descriptive grammar, and is unconcern=
ed with prescriptive grammar (see <A title=3D"Prescription and description"=
href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescription_and_description">Prescri=
ption and description</A>).</P>
<P>There are many theories of <I>formal syntax</I> — theories that hav=
e in time risen or fallen in influence. Most theories of syntax share at le=
ast two commonalities. First, they hierarchically group subunits into const=
ituent units (phrases). Second, they provide some system of rules to explai=
n patterns of acceptability/grammaticality and unacceptability/ungrammatica=
lity. Most formal theories of syntax offer explanations of the systematic r=
elationships between syntactic form and <A title=3DSemantic href=3D"http://=
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic">semantic</A> meaning. Syntax is defined, wi=
thin the study of <A title=3DSign href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign=
">signs</A>, as the first of its three subfields (the study of the interrel=
ation of the signs). The second subfield is <A title=3DSemantics href=3D"ht=
tp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantics">semantics</A> (the study of the relat=
ion between the signs and the objects to which they apply), and the third i=
s <A title=3DPragmatics href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatics">pr=
agmatics</A>(the relationship between the sign system and the user).</P>
<P>Peace,</P>
<P>David</P>
<P><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--- On Wed 08/30, Phil Bralich < pbralich@EAR=
THLINK.NET > wrote:<BR></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 7px; MARGIN-LEFT: 7px; BORDER-LEFT: oran=
ge 2px solid"><B>From: </B>Phil Bralich [mailto: [log in to unmask]]<BR=
><B>To: </B>[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Date: </B>Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:01=
:09 -0400<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: Grammar Certification<BR><BR>The difficult=
y I am talking about is that those who take those classes often have troubl=
e recognizing and communicating the parts of speech, parts of sentence, and=
sentence types as well as relations between sentences and clauses. They ma=
y have some interesting views but they lack this basic knowledege. It is mi=
ssing because it was ignored in elementary school, ignored in secondary sch=
ool and presupposed in post secondary and graduate school. The certificate,=
takes the problem of remediation out of the formal programs and leaves it =
to a separte certificate program. This would be good for community colleges=
to offer and useful for all professionals to demonstrate they had the basi=
c skills rather. And don't forget most leaving those programs you refer to =
simply do not have the skills we are talking about. <BR><BR>Phil Bralich<BR=
><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>>From: dabro <[log in to unmask]><BR>>=
;Sent: Aug 30, 2006 12:39 PM<BR>>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>>Sub=
ject: Re: Grammar Certification<BR>><BR>> Phil:For TESL certification=
, or an MA TESL, prospective teachers often study syntax, semantics, pragma=
tics, sociolinguistics, and discourse analysis. Is this not grammar in use?=
I believe it is. Peace,David BrownEFL/ESL teacherLong Beach, CA--- On Wed =
08/30, Phil Bralich < [log in to unmask] > wrote:<BR>>From: Ph=
il Bralich [mailto: [log in to unmask]]To: [log in to unmask]
: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 07:46:49 -0700Subject: Re: Grammar CertificationThat's n=
ice, but it still leaves room for someone not to know that participial phra=
se and a reduced adejective clause are the same thing. A certification test=
for grammar alone independent of getting a Master's would be a real servic=
e for those who want and can teach grammar and for those who want to hire q=
ualified grammar teachers. It is also one more line, one more certification=
on a C.V. so it cannot be a bad thing. This would have been the best respo=
nse to reports that grammar study was somehow unimportant or ineffective. I=
have always been convinced that most of the anti-grammar movement got its =
support primarily from those afraid of being called to account for an insuf=
ficient background in grammar. To this day whenever I hear someone extollin=
g anti-grammar attitudes I immediately know they will be EXTREMELY defensiv=
e abo!<BR>u!<BR>><BR>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please vis=
it the list's web interface at:<BR>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives=
/ateg.html<BR>>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR>><BR>>Visit =
ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV l=
ist, please visit the list's web interface at:<BR>http://listserv.muohio.ed=
u/archives/ateg.html<BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit AT=
EG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT></TD></TR></TB=
ODY></TABLE>
<P>
<HR>
<FONT face=3Dverdana size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">No banners.=
No pop-ups. No kidding.</SPAN><BR>Make My Way your home on the Web - <A hr=
ef=3D"http://www.myway.com" target=3D_blank>http://www.myway.com</A></FONT>=
</B> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web inter=
face at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or =
leave the list"=20
<P>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:49:13 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
In-Reply-To: A<[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6CC5C.ADCF8CD8"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C6CC5C.ADCF8CD8
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
David,
=20
Talmy is hands-down one of the great linguists of our time. I've used a
number of his books as texts in graduate classes. His work is
unfailingly stimulating.
=20
Herb
=20
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of dabro
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 12:47 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
=20
Thanks, Herb. And there's more:
http://www.amazon.com/s/102-6810170-2775324?ie=3DUTF8&index=3Dbooks&rank=3D=
-re
levance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank&field-author-exact=3DTalmy%20Givon
Peace,
David=20
--- On Wed 08/30, Stahlke, Herbert F.W. < [log in to unmask] > wrote:
From: Stahlke, Herbert F.W. [mailto: [log in to unmask]]
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:37:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
Dabro,
I purposely avoided that question. _Running through the Tall Grass_, by
the way, is also a wonderful 1997 novel by a superb linguist, Talmy
Givon, which you can get incredibly cheaply from Amazon.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of dabro
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 12:31 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
Herb, Who was "running through the tall grass"? Peace, David --- On
Wed 08/30, Stahlke, Herbert F.W. < [log in to unmask] > wrote:From:
Stahlke, Herbert F.W. [mailto: [log in to unmask]]To:
[log in to unmask]: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:21:20 -0400Subject:
Re: Grammar CertificationYour example raises the question of what should
be on such a test, whichgets us right back to the question of what a
grammar curriculum shouldcover. The guard saw the escapee running
through the tall grass."Running through the tall grass" here can be
either an adjective clauseor an object complement, although I find the
OC interpretation moreobvious. If I front the participial phrase,
Running through the tall grass, the guard saw the escapee, it becomes
adverbial. But we're still back to the question of what people should
know if theyare to know grammar.Herb-----Original Message-----From:
Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Phil=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
________________________________
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com To join or leave
this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C6CC5C.ADCF8CD8
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:st1=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]--><o:SmartTagType
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName"/>
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Verdana;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0pt;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0pt;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
@page Section1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>
<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>David,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Talmy is hands-down one of the =
great
linguists of our time. I’ve used a number of his books as =
texts in
graduate classes. His work is unfailingly =
stimulating.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
<st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf
Of </span></b>dabro<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, August =
30, 2006
12:47 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Grammar =
Certification</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 =
width=3D"100%"
bgcolor=3Dwhite style=3D'width:100.0%;background:white'>
<tr>
<td width=3D"100%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:100.0%;padding:2.25pt =
2.25pt 2.25pt 2.25pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Thanks,
Herb. And there's more:<br>
<br>
<a
=
href=3D"http://www.amazon.com/s/102-6810170-2775324?ie=3DUTF8&index=3D=
books&rank=3D-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank&field-autho=
r-exact=3DTalmy%20Givon">http://www.amazon.com/s/102-6810170-2775324?ie=3D=
UTF8&index=3Dbooks&rank=3D-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-dateran=
k&field-author-exact=3DTalmy%20Givon</a><br>
<br>
Peace,<br>
<br>
David <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--- On Wed 08/30, <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Stahlke, Herbert =
F.W.</st1:PersonName>
< [log in to unmask] > wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From: =
</span></font></b><st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Stahlke,
Herbert F.W.</span></font></st1:PersonName><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> [mailto: [log in to unmask]]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To: =
</span></b>[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Date: </span></b>Wed, 30 Aug 2006 =
12:37:18
-0400<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject: </span></b>Re: Grammar
Certification<br>
<br>
Dabro,<br>
<br>
I purposely avoided that question. _Running through the Tall Grass_, =
by<br>
the way, is also a wonderful 1997 novel by a superb linguist, =
Talmy<br>
Givon, which you can get incredibly cheaply from Amazon.<br>
<br>
Herb<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar</st1:PersonName><br>
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of dabro<br>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 12:31 PM<br>
To: [log in to unmask]<br>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification<br>
<br>
Herb, Who was "running through the tall grass"? Peace, David =
--- On<br>
Wed 08/30, <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Stahlke, Herbert =
F.W.</st1:PersonName>
&lt; [log in to unmask] &gt; wrote:From:<br>
<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Stahlke, Herbert F.W.</st1:PersonName> =
[mailto:
[log in to unmask]]To:<br>
[log in to unmask]: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:21:20 =
-0400Subject:<br>
Re: Grammar CertificationYour example raises the question of what =
should<br>
be on such a test, whichgets us right back to the question of what =
a<br>
grammar curriculum shouldcover. The guard saw the escapee running<br>
through the tall grass."Running through the tall grass" here =
can be<br>
either an adjective clauseor an object complement, although I find =
the<br>
OC interpretation moreobvious. If I front the participial phrase,<br>
Running through the tall grass, the guard saw the escapee, it =
becomes<br>
adverbial. But we're still back to the question of what people =
should<br>
know if theyare to know grammar.Herb-----Original =
Message-----From:<br>
Assembly for the Teaching of English<br>
Grammar[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Phil <br>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<br>
interface at:<br>
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
<br>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<br>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface
at:<br>
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
<br>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold'>No banners. No pop-ups. No =
kidding.</span></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><br>
Make My Way your home on the Web - <a href=3D"http://www.myway.com"
target=3D"_blank">http://www.myway.com</a></span></font> To join or =
leave this
LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or =
leave
the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Visit
ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C6CC5C.ADCF8CD8--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:58:51 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Bralich <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Yes, but this isn't a problem for publishers of grammar books, magazine and book editors and on and on. It seems only to be baffling to members of this group. Certainly there are issues of the when and how to teach it, but what to teach was worked out long ago and does not baffle most people charged with the responsibility to write or publish books about it. If you go to Barnes and Noble or Borders and look in children's books you see the publishers are not in the least baffled about any of this. Whatever the schools are doing, the publishers are taking the high ground by making good grammar available to at least the parents. As a matter of fact, I think the publishers would be quite baffled by this group and the dilemas posed by it.
The publishers and authors of the Chicago Manual of Style, Strunk and White and so on for example, don't have that much problem with it. If a certification was based on such established works you can be sure it would gain wide acceptance in education and business except perhaps by those in the area who don't know their stuff. Someone out there may be in a position to develop and offer such a certification. I suspect it would be quite good for any department to do so. NCTE and ATEG and the DOE would be well advised to offer just such a certification.
I would be happy to chair a committee willing to explore the possibilities, establish standards, and begin the process.
Phil Bralich
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Aug 30, 2006 12:21 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
>
>Your example raises the question of what should be on such a test, which
>gets us right back to the question of what a grammar curriculum should
>cover.
>
>The guard saw the escapee running through the tall grass.
>
>"Running through the tall grass" here can be either an adjective clause
>or an object complement, although I find the OC interpretation more
>obvious. If I front the participial phrase,
>
>Running through the tall grass, the guard saw the escapee,
>
>it becomes adverbial.
>
>But we're still back to the question of what people should know if they
>are to know grammar.
>
>Herb
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Phil Bralich
>Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 10:47 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
>
>That's nice, but it still leaves room for someone not to know that
>participial phrase and a reduced adejective clause are the same thing.
>A certification test for grammar alone independent of getting a Master's
>would be a real service for those who want and can teach grammar and for
>those who want to hire qualified grammar teachers. It is also one more
>line, one more certification on a C.V. so it cannot be a bad thing.
>This would have been the best response to reports that grammar study was
>somehow unimportant or ineffective. I have always been convinced that
>most of the anti-grammar movement got its support primarily from those
>afraid of being called to account for an insufficient background in
>grammar. To this day whenever I hear someone extolling anti-grammar
>attitudes I immediately know they will be EXTREMELY defensive about
>their knowledge of grammar. Certification would take the bogey of
>anti-grammar off the table and force everyone to do a few exercises
>(which by the way is the fastest most efficient way to learn grammar).
>
>Phil Bralich
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]>
>>Sent: Aug 29, 2006 6:34 PM
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
>>
>>Ball State's MA TESOL program has always been somewhat conservative in
>its curriculum. We require a basic linguistics coures, a grammar
>course, a phonetics course, and a contrastive pragmatics class, as well
>as the usual methods and other things. Grammar is also included in the
>methods courses.
>>
>>Herb
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Phil
>Bralich
>>Sent: Tue 8/29/2006 5:12 PM
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
>>
>>I am aware of that but this would be for grammar alone and would be a
>bit more stringent. As you know TESOL was particularly hard hit by the
>anti-grammar attitude and most out there still don't know their grammar.
>However, I would't mind seeing the criteria for the grammar section are
>you aware of where I could find one.
>>
>>Also this grammar certificate would be independent of an MA program. I
>would be available for teachers from a a vareity of backgrounds in a
>vareity of classes that may be called on to teach grammar in one of its
>many forms which often would NOT require an MA in TESOL and for which in
>fact an MA in TESOL may be wholly inappropriate.
>>
>>Phil Bralich
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: dabro
>> Sent: Aug 29, 2006 6:03 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
>>
>>
>> Phil:
>>
>> That's included in any "legitimate" Graduate TESL Certificate
>Course, such as the one that I completed at Cal State, Long Beach.
>>
>> http://www.csulb.edu/depts/ling/certificate.htm
>>
>> Unfortunately, many prospective ESL teachers look for the
>quickest and cheapest piece of paper they can find.
>>
>> http://www.aacircle.com.au/tesl_tefl.htm
>>
>> Peace,
>>
>> David Brown
>> ESL/EFL Teacher
>> Long Beach, CA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Tue 08/29, Phil Bralich < [log in to unmask] > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Phil Bralich [mailto: [log in to unmask]]
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:01:25 -0400
>> Subject: Grammar Certification
>>
>> I suggested earlier that those who need to hire teachers
>to teach grammar should have prospects pass a grammar test to ensure
>that the teacher's were qualified. It also might demonstrate if they are
>interested. A number of posts suggested this could be problematic for a
>number of reasaons. However, perhaps a grammar teacher certification
>would be the better idea. A certification indicating that teacher's were
>qualified to teach grammar to native speakers and another for ESL
>teachers who wanted to teach ESL grammar (perhaps an advanced
>certification for TOEFL grammar). This would give employers something to
>add to their considerations when considering candidates and this would
>give people who genuinely know their grammar a chance to demonstrate it
>and get job preference in these situations. Thus helping get the grammar
>jobs to the grammar incllined and away from those who are either
>anti-grammar or grammar deluded (e.g. think they know grammar but do
>not).
>>
>> Phil Bralich
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
>list's web interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
>> Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com To join
>or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
>the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
>"Join or leave the list"
>>
>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:05:41 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: helene hoover <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Phil: I've been reading what you have to say, and I think you are absolutely
on to something. I would love to be able to add a grammar certification to
my credentials. You are right that far too many public school teachers
(including English majors) do not know grammar adequately well to explain it
to their students, so they just ignore that aspect of teaching English.
Certainly the TESOL people do much better--because they are required to have
those courses--but those of us who haven't any classes in TESOL have been
somewhat hard-pressed to find many college courses which explicitly teach
grammar. I'm with you! Helene Hoover
>From: Phil Bralich <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
><[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
>Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:01:09 -0400
>
>The difficulty I am talking about is that those who take those classes
>often have trouble recognizing and communicating the parts of speech, parts
>of sentence, and sentence types as well as relations between sentences and
>clauses. They may have some interesting views but they lack this basic
>knowledege. It is missing because it was ignored in elementary school,
>ignored in secondary school and presupposed in post secondary and graduate
>school. The certificate, takes the problem of remediation out of the
>formal programs and leaves it to a separte certificate program. This would
>be good for community colleges to offer and useful for all professionals to
>demonstrate they had the basic skills rather. And don't forget most
>leaving those programs you refer to simply do not have the skills we are
>talking about.
>
>Phil Bralich
>
>-----Original Message-----
> >From: dabro <[log in to unmask]>
> >Sent: Aug 30, 2006 12:39 PM
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
> >
> > Phil:For TESL certification, or an MA TESL, prospective teachers often
>study syntax, semantics, pragmatics, sociolinguistics, and discourse
>analysis. Is this not grammar in use? I believe it is. Peace,David
>BrownEFL/ESL teacherLong Beach, CA--- On Wed 08/30, Phil Bralich <
>[log in to unmask] > wrote:
> >From: Phil Bralich [mailto: [log in to unmask]]To:
>[log in to unmask]: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 07:46:49 -0700Subject: Re:
>Grammar CertificationThat's nice, but it still leaves room for someone not
>to know that participial phrase and a reduced adejective clause are the
>same thing. A certification test for grammar alone independent of getting a
>Master's would be a real service for those who want and can teach grammar
>and for those who want to hire qualified grammar teachers. It is also one
>more line, one more certification on a C.V. so it cannot be a bad thing.
>This would have been the best response to reports that grammar study was
>somehow unimportant or ineffective. I have always been convinced that most
>of the anti-grammar movement got its support primarily from those afraid of
>being called to account for an insufficient background in grammar. To this
>day whenever I hear someone extolling anti-grammar attitudes I immediately
>know they will be EXTREMELY defensive abo!
> u!
> >
> >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> >and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:57:19 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Marshall Myers <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Book Reviwer Selections
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="------------080803000103070606030105"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------080803000103070606030105
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
ATEG Members,
While there were many excellent and eager candidates, I have assigned
the two book reviews for an upcoming issue of the ATEG Journal to
Patrice D. Williams (Grammar by Diagram, Second Edition), and to Seth
Katz (Artful Sentences: Syntax as Style).
If you did not receive an assignment, please don't be discouraged. I try
to use new people each time I call for reviewers. That way, more people
get a chance and we broaden the conversation. If you find a book that
you think our members would be interested in, let me know, and we can
try to work something out.
Thanks to all of you who answered my call for reviewers.
Marshall Myers
Book Review Editor
ATEG Journal
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--------------080803000103070606030105
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<title></title>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
ATEG Members,<br>
<br>
While there were many excellent and eager candidates, I have assigned
the two book reviews for an upcoming issue of the <u>ATEG Journal</u>
to Patrice D. Williams (<u>Grammar by Diagram</u>, Second Edition), and
to Seth Katz (<u>Artful Sentences: Syntax as Style</u>).<br>
<br>
If you did not receive an assignment, please don't be discouraged. I
try to use new people each time I call for reviewers. That way, more
people get a chance and we broaden the conversation. If you find a book
that you think our members would be interested in, let me know, and we
can try to work something out.<br>
<br>
Thanks to all of you who answered my call for reviewers.<br>
<br>
Marshall Myers<br>
Book Review Editor<br>
<u>ATEG Journal</u><br>
</body>
</html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--------------080803000103070606030105--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:20:30 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: =?windows-1252?Q?John_Curran?= <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
Helene and Dabro,
Re TESOL - I have almost finished a Masters in TESOL but am disappointe=
d=20
in the practical applications of the course for a practicing teacher.=20
Although semantics and sociolinguistics are interesting they are of littl=
e=20
help to the housewives in Yokohama. Of course I realise that these studie=
s=20
give us many insights into the language. I am interested Dabro in which=20=
elements of your TESOL focussed on the teaching of grammar and what kind=20=
of grammar - traditional grammar, linguistic grammar or what?
John
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:13:40 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Johanna Rubba <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Perhaps some of you are familiar with the book by Marianne Celce-Murcia
and Diane Larsen-Freeman, "The ESL Grammar Book". I believe it is used
as a textbook in ESL teacher-training programs (it was at U of MT when
I taught there one semester a long time ago). It covers a great deal of
English grammar. I think if a teacher trainee had this as a textbook
and didn't learn anything about English grammar, it would be the
trainee's fault.
The problem with many current ESL teachers is that, even if they had
grammar training in their teacher-prep courses, one semester or even
more is often not enough to make up for the many years missed in K-12.
They might learn enough to pass a test and get their degree, but they
have to return to the subject again and again to get proficient enough
to teach grammar with ease. Although I don't agree with Phil's version
of what grammar to teach, I do agree that grammar teaching should start
early and continue throughout the grades. I also find it absurd that
students who want to become teachers of French, German, or whatever,
are often not required to take any linguistics (not even
second-language-acquisition theory or teaching methods). ESL teaching
is the only area of language education I know of that is based on real
linguistics instead of the "great literature" & grammar/translation
tradition. (Although inroads have been made by textbook authors like
Tracy Terrell and his associates.)
Dr. Johanna Rubba, Associate Professor, Linguistics
Linguistics Minor Advisor
English Department
California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
Tel.: 805.756.2184
Dept. Ofc. Tel.: 805.756.2596
Dept. Fax: 805.756.6374
URL: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 03:47:29 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Mike Garant <mg200963@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Call for reviewers
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1489654569-1157021249=:51296"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
--0-1489654569-1157021249=:51296
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Greetings from Finland,
The University of Helsinki Department of Translation Studies series
on Current Trends in Translation Teaching and Learning is currently accepting applications for reviewers for its editorial board.
All issues will be refereed and published on an annual or every other year basis. All reviews will be completed electronically via e-mail.
If you are interested, please send a letter of application
and a CV to [log in to unmask]
All the Best,
Mike
Dr. Mike Garant
Senior Lecturer
Department of Translation Studies
University of Helsinki
Box 94
FIN-45101 Kouvola
Finland
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-1489654569-1157021249=:51296
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
<div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Greetings from <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Finland</st1:country-region></st1:place>,<BR> <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><FONT face="Times New Roman">The University of Helsinki Department of Translation Studies series<BR>on Current Trends in Translation Teaching and Learning is currently accepting applications for reviewers for its editorial board. <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p><FONT
face="Times New Roman"> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman"> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><FONT face="Times New Roman">All issues will be refereed and published on an annual or every other year basis. All reviews will be completed electronically via e-mail.<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><FONT face="Times New Roman">If you are interested, please send a letter of application<BR>and a CV to
[log in to unmask]<BR> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman"> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><FONT face="Times New Roman">All the Best,<BR>Mike <BR><BR>Dr. Mike Garant<BR><BR>Senior Lecturer<BR><BR>Department of Translation Studies<BR><BR><st1:PlaceType w:st="on">University</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Helsinki</st1:PlaceName><BR><BR><st1:address w:st="on"><st1:Street w:st="on">Box</st1:Street> 94</st1:address><BR><BR>FIN-45101 Kouvola<BR><BR><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Finland</st1:country-region></st1:place></FONT><BR style="mso-special-character:
line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"></SPAN></div> <div> </div><p> 
<hr size=1>Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com"> Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-1489654569-1157021249=:51296--
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 06:15:25 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Eduard C. Hanganu" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
John,
A degree will not give you the knowledge and the training needed for
teaching. You need to educate yourself on matters which interest you.
Especially so in TESOL education. I said, and I am repeating it, only
a few monolingual Americans can teach English as a second language
because they do not know what it takes to learn a foreign language. I
saw this clearly during my language education. The grammar they teach
in TESOL courses is usually a terrible hodge-podge of outdated and
useless Chomskian theories, or sentence-structure grammar ( with
complicated tree structures )which is too advanced for anyone but
theoretical linguists.
I always move ahead of my instructors, and look for the information
which would help me acquire the knowledge and the skills which will
allow me to teach effectively language.
Eduard
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, =?Windows-1252?Q?John_curran?= wrote...
>Helene and Dabro,
> Re TESOL - I have almost finished a Masters in TESOL but am
disappointe=
>
>d=20
>in the practical applications of the course for a practicing
teacher.=20
>Although semantics and sociolinguistics are interesting they are of
littl=
>
>e=20
>help to the housewives in Yokohama. Of course I realise that these
studie=
>
>s=20
>give us many insights into the language. I am interested Dabro in
which=20=
>
>
>elements of your TESOL focussed on the teaching of grammar and what
kind=20=
>
>
>of grammar - traditional grammar, linguistic grammar or what?
> John
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 06:26:30 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Eduard C. Hanganu" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
Johanna:
You state:
>I think if a teacher trainee had this as a textbook
>and didn't learn anything about English grammar, it would be the
>trainee's fault.
I beg to disagree with your evaluation of Celce-Murcia's textbook. I
spent s graduate semester with it, and then consulted it again and
again. The book is much too complex for the high school teacher, and
almost useless for elementary TESOL education. It is in fact useful
only for those who have a very advanced knowledge of both traditional
and phrase-structure/generative-transformational grammar. For all
others the textbook is confusing and overwhelming. Most of the
foreing students in my TESOL grammar class based on Celce-Murcia got
completely lost in the pages of the book. "The Grammar Book" is a
reference grammar book, not a grammar course textbook.
Eduard
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Johanna Rubba wrote...
>Perhaps some of you are familiar with the book by Marianne Celce-
Murcia
>and Diane Larsen-Freeman, "The ESL Grammar Book". I believe it is
used
>as a textbook in ESL teacher-training programs (it was at U of MT
when
>I taught there one semester a long time ago). It covers a great deal
of
>English grammar. I think if a teacher trainee had this as a textbook
>and didn't learn anything about English grammar, it would be the
>trainee's fault.
>
>The problem with many current ESL teachers is that, even if they had
>grammar training in their teacher-prep courses, one semester or even
>more is often not enough to make up for the many years missed in K-
12.
>They might learn enough to pass a test and get their degree, but
they
>have to return to the subject again and again to get proficient
enough
>to teach grammar with ease. Although I don't agree with Phil's
version
>of what grammar to teach, I do agree that grammar teaching should
start
>early and continue throughout the grades. I also find it absurd that
>students who want to become teachers of French, German, or whatever,
>are often not required to take any linguistics (not even
>second-language-acquisition theory or teaching methods). ESL
teaching
>is the only area of language education I know of that is based on
real
>linguistics instead of the "great literature" & grammar/translation
>tradition. (Although inroads have been made by textbook authors like
>Tracy Terrell and his associates.)
>
>Dr. Johanna Rubba, Associate Professor, Linguistics
>Linguistics Minor Advisor
>English Department
>California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
>E-mail: [log in to unmask]
>Tel.: 805.756.2184
>Dept. Ofc. Tel.: 805.756.2596
>Dept. Fax: 805.756.6374
>URL: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 06:56:30 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Rebecca Watson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1-477047659
--Apple-Mail-1-477047659
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=US-ASCII;
delsp=yes;
format=flowed
On Aug 31, 2006, at 6:26 AM, Eduard C. Hanganu wrote:
> elementary TESOL education
Have any of you seen "Project Read" (apologies to the author, whose
name escapes me)? It will jangle Johanna's nerves (it gives examples
of words which are NOUNS, VERBS, etc.). The sentence is underlined
with either an "x", "!" or "?" at the end to indicate what type of
sentence it is. The initial letter receives a big, inverted "V",
indicating the the initial letter of any type of sentence is ALWAYS
capitalized. After that, each part of speech (elementary analysis!)
is captured using distinct marks. Visually, it is easy to see and
learn. And the different marks are easy to learn. My True Beginning
IEP students loved seeing how a sentence (again, elementary) is put
together. Lots of "AHHHH!".
Rebecca Watson
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--Apple-Mail-1-477047659
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1
<HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; =
-khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><BR><DIV><DIV>On Aug 31, 2006, =
at 6:26 AM, Eduard C. Hanganu wrote:</DIV><BR =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><P =
style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" =
size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">elementary TESOL =
education</FONT></P> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>Have any of you seen =
"Project Read" (apologies to the author, whose name escapes me)?=A0 It =
will jangle Johanna's nerves (it gives examples of words which are =
NOUNS, VERBS, etc.).=A0 The sentence is underlined with either an "x", =
"!" or "?" at the end to indicate what type of sentence it is.=A0 The =
initial letter receives a big, inverted "V", indicating the the initial =
letter of any type of sentence is ALWAYS capitalized.=A0 After that, =
each part of speech (elementary analysis!) is captured using distinct =
marks.=A0 Visually, it is easy to see and learn.=A0 And the different =
marks are easy to learn.=A0 My True Beginning IEP students loved seeing =
how a sentence (again, elementary) is put together.=A0 Lots of =
"AHHHH!".<BR><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Rebecca=
Watson</DIV></BODY></HTML>=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--Apple-Mail-1-477047659--
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:33:24 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
In-Reply-To: A<[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Eduard,
I've very much with Johanna on the Celce-Murcia book. We've used it
often here in the grammar course for the MATESOL, and it works quite
well. Students are not confused by it; rather, they find it helpful.
But then they are also taught to use it as a source, a reference work.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Eduard C. Hanganu
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 7:27 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
Johanna:
You state:=20
>I think if a teacher trainee had this as a textbook=20
>and didn't learn anything about English grammar, it would be the=20
>trainee's fault.
I beg to disagree with your evaluation of Celce-Murcia's textbook. I=20
spent s graduate semester with it, and then consulted it again and=20
again. The book is much too complex for the high school teacher, and=20
almost useless for elementary TESOL education. It is in fact useful=20
only for those who have a very advanced knowledge of both traditional=20
and phrase-structure/generative-transformational grammar. For all=20
others the textbook is confusing and overwhelming. Most of the=20
foreing students in my TESOL grammar class based on Celce-Murcia got=20
completely lost in the pages of the book. "The Grammar Book" is a=20
reference grammar book, not a grammar course textbook.=20
Eduard=20
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Johanna Rubba wrote...
>Perhaps some of you are familiar with the book by Marianne Celce-
Murcia=20
>and Diane Larsen-Freeman, "The ESL Grammar Book". I believe it is=20
used=20
>as a textbook in ESL teacher-training programs (it was at U of MT=20
when=20
>I taught there one semester a long time ago). It covers a great deal=20
of=20
>English grammar. I think if a teacher trainee had this as a textbook=20
>and didn't learn anything about English grammar, it would be the=20
>trainee's fault.
>
>The problem with many current ESL teachers is that, even if they had=20
>grammar training in their teacher-prep courses, one semester or even=20
>more is often not enough to make up for the many years missed in K-
12.=20
>They might learn enough to pass a test and get their degree, but=20
they=20
>have to return to the subject again and again to get proficient=20
enough=20
>to teach grammar with ease. Although I don't agree with Phil's=20
version=20
>of what grammar to teach, I do agree that grammar teaching should=20
start=20
>early and continue throughout the grades. I also find it absurd that=20
>students who want to become teachers of French, German, or whatever,=20
>are often not required to take any linguistics (not even=20
>second-language-acquisition theory or teaching methods). ESL=20
teaching=20
>is the only area of language education I know of that is based on=20
real=20
>linguistics instead of the "great literature" & grammar/translation=20
>tradition. (Although inroads have been made by textbook authors like=20
>Tracy Terrell and his associates.)
>
>Dr. Johanna Rubba, Associate Professor, Linguistics
>Linguistics Minor Advisor
>English Department
>California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
>E-mail: [log in to unmask]
>Tel.: 805.756.2184
>Dept. Ofc. Tel.: 805.756.2596
>Dept. Fax: 805.756.6374
>URL: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web=20
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:38:51 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
In-Reply-To: A<[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Eduard,
I'm sorry you've had that experience. I'll grant that too much grammar
teaching since the 60s has had too much theoretical overhead--it took me
a long time to break out of that myself. However, good, and even great,
grammar teaching and learning goes on in spite of the theoretical or
philosophical approach, not because of it. I've seen grammar texts use
a more formal syntax to great success, and I've seen others approach the
subject matter functionally, traditionally, or systemically with equal
success. A great deal depends on the teacher understanding the
students' goals, even if the students don't understand them completely.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Eduard C. Hanganu
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 7:15 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
John,=20
A degree will not give you the knowledge and the training needed for=20
teaching. You need to educate yourself on matters which interest you.
Especially so in TESOL education. I said, and I am repeating it, only=20
a few monolingual Americans can teach English as a second language=20
because they do not know what it takes to learn a foreign language. I=20
saw this clearly during my language education. The grammar they teach=20
in TESOL courses is usually a terrible hodge-podge of outdated and=20
useless Chomskian theories, or sentence-structure grammar ( with=20
complicated tree structures )which is too advanced for anyone but=20
theoretical linguists.
=20
I always move ahead of my instructors, and look for the information=20
which would help me acquire the knowledge and the skills which will=20
allow me to teach effectively language.
Eduard=20
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, =3D?Windows-1252?Q?John_curran?=3D wrote...
>Helene and Dabro,
> Re TESOL - I have almost finished a Masters in TESOL but am=20
disappointe=3D
>
>d=3D20
>in the practical applications of the course for a practicing=20
teacher.=3D20
>Although semantics and sociolinguistics are interesting they are of=20
littl=3D
>
>e=3D20
>help to the housewives in Yokohama. Of course I realise that these=20
studie=3D
>
>s=3D20
>give us many insights into the language. I am interested Dabro in=20
which=3D20=3D
>
>
>elements of your TESOL focussed on the teaching of grammar and what=20
kind=3D20=3D
>
>
>of grammar - traditional grammar, linguistic grammar or what?
> John
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web=20
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 09:06:42 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: dabro <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="MYWAYBOUNDARY_000__505a721cf0b9ad27457ffa6199720651";
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
--MYWAYBOUNDARY_000__505a721cf0b9ad27457ffa6199720651
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John: You wrote : "I am interested Dabro in which elements of your TESOL focussed on the teaching of grammar and what kind of grammar - traditional grammar, linguistic grammar or what?"Perhaps, my situation is different than that of many prospective teachers today. In the first place, I was 61 years old (I'm now 76) when I returned to school, after having worked for 30 years as an actor and radio announcer, so I attended elementary (grammar) school in the 1930s and high school in the 1940s. A grammar course, using Martha Kolln's Understanding English Grammar was a requirement for my AA in English Language and Literature. I was then introduced to phrase structure and transformational-generative grammar in a syntax class that was required for my BA in English Language and Composition. My comment, at the time was, "How can this be used in teaching English? My students won't understand it any better than I do." As an undergraduate student I minored in Spanish.One of the text!
s
used was Terrell and de Gargill's Linguistica Applicada. I may have learned more about English grammar in that course than in any of my English grammar courses. I studied Discourse Analysis as both an undergraduate and a graduate student, and I believe that helped in understanding communicative (descriptive) grammar . I have the Celce-Murcia/Larsen-Freeman text that Dr. Rubba recommends, but I rarely use it. Instead, I've found Betty Azar's Understanding and Using English Grammar to be more practical--as a reference and in the classoom. I hope this helps. Peace, David Brown --- On Wed 08/30, =?windows-1252?Q?John_Curran?= < [log in to unmask] > wrote:From: =?windows-1252?Q?John_Curran?= [mailto: [log in to unmask]]To: [log in to unmask]: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:20:30 -0400Subject: Re: Grammar CertificationHelene and Dabro,Re TESOL - I have almost finished a Masters in TESOL but am disappointed in the practical applications of the
course for a practicing teacher. Although semantics and sociolinguistics are interesting they are of little help to the housewives in Yokohama. Of course I realise that these studies give us many insights into the language. I am interested Dabro in which elements of your TESOL focussed on the teaching of grammar and what kind of grammar - traditional grammar, linguistic grammar or what?JohnTo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
_______________________________________________
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--MYWAYBOUNDARY_000__505a721cf0b9ad27457ffa6199720651
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<table cellpadding=3 cellspacing=0 border=0 width=100% bgcolor=white><tr valign=top><td width=100%><font size=2 color=black>John:<br> <br>You wrote : "I am interested Dabro in which <BR>elements of your TESOL focussed on the teaching of grammar and what kind <BR>of grammar - traditional grammar, linguistic grammar or what?"<BR><br>Perhaps, my situation is different than that of many prospective teachers today. In the first place, I was 61 years old (I'm now 76) when I returned to school, after having worked for 30 years as an actor and radio announcer, so I attended elementary (grammar) school in the 1930s and high school in the 1940s. <br> <br>A grammar course, using Martha Kolln's <EM>Understanding English Grammar </EM> was a requirement for my AA in English Language and Literature. I was then introduced to phrase structure and transformational-generative grammar in a syntax class that was required for my BA in English Language and Composition. My comment, at the time
was, "How can this be used in teaching English? My students won't understand it any better than I do." As an undergraduate student I minored in Spanish.One of the texts used was Terrell and de Gargill's <EM>Linguistica Applicada. </EM>I may have learned more about English grammar in that course than in any of my English grammar courses. I studied Discourse Analysis as both an undergraduate and a graduate student, and I believe that helped in understanding communicative (descriptive) grammar . <br> <br>I have the Celce-Murcia/Larsen-Freeman text that Dr. Rubba recommends, but I rarely use it. Instead, I've found Betty Azar's <EM>Understanding and Using English</EM> <EM>Grammar</EM> to be more practical--as a reference and in the classoom. <br> <br>I hope this helps.<br> <br>Peace,<br> <br>David Brown<br> <br> <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--- On Wed 08/30, =?windows-1252?Q?John_Curran?= < [log in to unmask] > wrote:<BR><br><BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 7px; MARGIN-LEFT: 7px; BORDER-LEFT: orange 2px solid"><B>From: </B>=?windows-1252?Q?John_Curran?= [mailto: [log in to unmask]]<BR><B>To: </B>[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Date: </B>Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:20:30 -0400<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: Grammar Certification<BR><BR>Helene and Dabro,<BR>Re TESOL - I have almost finished a Masters in TESOL but am disappointed <BR>in the practical applications of the course for a practicing teacher. <BR>Although semantics and sociolinguistics are interesting they are of little <BR>help to the housewives in Yokohama. Of course I realise that these studies <BR>give us many insights into the language. I am interested Dabro in which <BR>elements of your TESOL focussed on the teaching of grammar and what kind <BR>of grammar - traditional grammar, linguistic grammar or what?<BR>John<BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<BR>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>and
select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></font></td></tr></table><p><hr><font size=2 face=verdana><span style='font-weight:bold'>No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.</span><br>Make My Way your home on the Web - <a href=http://www.myway.com target=_blank>http://www.myway.com</a></font></b>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--MYWAYBOUNDARY_000__505a721cf0b9ad27457ffa6199720651--
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 09:51:25 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: grammar certification
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I think we should see grammar certification as part of much larger
scale initiative, the Scope and Sequence project. From the start, we
have seen teacher training as an important element. Amanda Godley gave
a thoughtful presentation on this at the conference. My sense is that
many linguistics departments, including her own, have lobbied hard for
more grammar in English and teacher training, but have, until now at
least, met with resistance. I think we should advocate these long-term
goals:
1) restoration of comprehensive exploration of language, including syntax,
in K-12. Once this happens, of course, future teachers will have a much
more solid foundation to build on in their teacher training classes.
2) routinely including at least three classes in language for English
teaching and elementary teaching majors. This would include an overview of
linguistics, a single course just on syntax, and a course exploring the
role of language in reading and writing and in reading and writing
instruction. I also like the idea that schools could/should have language
experts on staff, experts that other teachers could go to for advice and
assistance. This is happening in the Maryland project, with some success.
Such a person would have an even stronger background in language studies.
Given the nature of today's students, this would include ESL.
3) If a school system wanted to (or was forced to) reintegrate grammar
into the curriculum, we should have recommendations in place for training
of current teachers. The Maryland project is very handy precisely because
they have done exactly that, brining Martha in as a consultant and paying
for the training of their current staff.
4) ATEG has been offering in-service training for years as part of our
conference. I have never been part of it and don't know the details of
what is covered, but people who come through it seem very grateful and
satisfied. These, of course, are willing participants, not just teachers
who are being forced into it. Perhaps we need to expand that operation. It
doesn't do much good to have a certification program if there's no way to
meet those goals. I guess I'm suggesting more carrot than stick.
Phil continues to speak about a grammar curriculum as if it already
exists, citing works like The Elements of Style, a book I like very
much but hardly think of as a comprehensive grammar. Certainly, E.B.
White never thought about it that way. The Chicago Manual of Style is a
very difficult book for anyone not well grounded in grammar already.
We seem on our way toward a thoughtfully modified traditional grammar,
but I think we will hurt the project if we simply say that we want to
reinstate the old traditional grammar and teach it in the same old
ways. As someone trained and experienced in composition, fairly well
tuned in to the current talk in my field, I think an old unmodified
grammar won't sell. Conference presentations on rhetorically focused or
meaning-centered grammar seem to be enthusiastically attended and
received. We need to be more articulate about ways in which grammar
participates in the effectiveness of discourse, about ways in which it
is so much more than a set of constraints. If it's all about "error",
then people want to know why they need to know it if they already
behave properly.
We have a chance to bring people together, and I worry that a
contentious commitment to certifying people will run counter to that.
What do we tell someone who asks what we want people to teach? Why not
offer a scope and sequence, make recommendations for what teachers
should know, and then help make in-service classes available on a more
widespread basis? We could offer certificates of completion and make
sure they mean something.
Craig
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:02:09 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: dabro <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="MYWAYBOUNDARY_000__d380d558b85e09f07e5e851153fef150";
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
--MYWAYBOUNDARY_000__d380d558b85e09f07e5e851153fef150
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John:You wrote : "I am interested Dabro in which elements of your TESOL focussed on the teaching of grammar and what kind of grammar - traditional grammar, linguistic grammar or what?"Perhaps, my situation is different than that of many prospective teachers today. In the first place, I was 61 years old (I'm now 76) when I returned to school, after having worked for 30 years as an actor and radio announcer, so I attended elementary (grammar) school in the 1930s and high school in the 1940s. A grammar course, using Martha Kolln's Understanding English Grammar was a requirement for my AA in English Language and Literature. I was then introduced to phrase structure and transformational-generative grammar in a syntax class that was required for my BA in English Language and Composition. My comment, at the time was, "How can this be used in teaching English? My students won't understand it any better than I do." As an undergraduate student I minored in Spanish.One of the texts
used was Terrell and de Gargill's Linguistica Applicada. I may have learned more about English grammar in that course than in any of my English grammar courses. I studied Discourse Analysis as both an undergraduate and a graduate student, and I believe that helped in understanding communicative (descriptive) grammar . I have the Celce-Murcia/Larsen-Freeman text that Dr. Rubba recommends, but I rarely use it. Instead, I've found Betty Azar's Understanding and Using English Grammar to be more practical--as a reference and in the classoom. There's more than one way to skin a cat. I hope this helps.Peace,David Brown--- On Wed 08/30, =?windows-1252?Q?John_Curran?= < [log in to unmask] > wrote:
From: =?windows-1252?Q?John_Curran?= [mailto: [log in to unmask]]To: [log in to unmask]: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:20:30 -0400Subject: Re: Grammar CertificationHelene and Dabro,Re TESOL - I have almost finished a Masters in TESOL but am disappointed in the practical applications of the course for a practicing teacher. Although semantics and sociolinguistics are interesting they are of little help to the housewives in Yokohama. Of course I realise that these studies give us many insights into the language. I am interested Dabro in which elements of your TESOL focussed on the teaching of grammar and what kind of grammar - traditional grammar, linguistic grammar or what?John--- On Wed 08/30, =?windows-1252?Q?John_Curran?= < [log in to unmask] > wrote:
From: =?windows-1252?Q?John_Curran?= [mailto: [log in to unmask]]To: [log in to unmask]: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:20:30 -0400Subject: Re: Grammar CertificationHelene and Dabro,Re TESOL - I have almost finished a Masters in TESOL but am disappointed in the practical applications of the course for a practicing teacher. Although semantics and sociolinguistics are interesting they are of little help to the housewives in Yokohama. Of course I realise that these studies give us many insights into the language. I am interested Dabro in which elements of your TESOL focussed on the teaching of grammar and what kind of grammar - traditional grammar, linguistic grammar or what?JohnTo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
_______________________________________________
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--MYWAYBOUNDARY_000__d380d558b85e09f07e5e851153fef150
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<table cellpadding=3 cellspacing=0 border=0 width=100% bgcolor=white><tr valign=top><td width=100%><font size=2 color=black>John:<BR><BR>You wrote : "I am interested Dabro in which <BR>elements of your TESOL focussed on the teaching of grammar and what kind <BR>of grammar - traditional grammar, linguistic grammar or what?"<BR><BR>Perhaps, my situation is different than that of many prospective teachers today. In the first place, I was 61 years old (I'm now 76) when I returned to school, after having worked for 30 years as an actor and radio announcer, so I attended elementary (grammar) school in the 1930s and high school in the 1940s. <BR><BR>A grammar course, using Martha Kolln's <EM>Understanding English Grammar </EM>was a requirement for my AA in English Language and Literature. I was then introduced to phrase structure and transformational-generative grammar in a syntax class that was required for my BA in English Language and Composition. My comment, at the time was,
"How can this be used in teaching English? My students won't understand it any better than I do." As an undergraduate student I minored in Spanish.One of the texts used was Terrell and de Gargill's <EM>Linguistica Applicada. </EM>I may have learned more about English grammar in that course than in any of my English grammar courses. I studied Discourse Analysis as both an undergraduate and a graduate student, and I believe that helped in understanding communicative (descriptive) grammar . <BR><BR>I have the Celce-Murcia/Larsen-Freeman text that Dr. Rubba recommends, but I rarely use it. Instead, I've found Betty Azar's <EM>Understanding and Using English</EM> <EM>Grammar</EM> to be more practical--as a reference and in the classoom. <BR><BR>There's more than one way to skin a cat. I hope this helps.<BR><BR>Peace,<BR><BR>David Brown<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--- On Wed 08/30, =?windows-1252?Q?John_Curran?= < [log in to unmask] > wrote:<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 7px; MARGIN-LEFT: 7px; BORDER-LEFT: orange 2px solid"><B>From: </B>=?windows-1252?Q?John_Curran?= [mailto: [log in to unmask]]<BR><B>To: </B>[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Date: </B>Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:20:30 -0400<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: Grammar Certification<BR><BR>Helene and Dabro,<BR>Re TESOL - I have almost finished a Masters in TESOL but am disappointed <BR>in the practical applications of the course for a practicing teacher. <BR>Although semantics and sociolinguistics are interesting they are of little <BR>help to the housewives in Yokohama. Of course I realise that these studies <BR>give us many insights into the language. I am interested Dabro in which <BR>elements of your TESOL focussed on the teaching of grammar and what kind <BR>of grammar - traditional grammar, linguistic grammar or what?<BR>John<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--- On Wed 08/30, =?windows-1252?Q?John_Curran?= < [log in to unmask] >
wrote:<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 7px; MARGIN-LEFT: 7px; BORDER-LEFT: orange 2px solid"><B>From: </B>=?windows-1252?Q?John_Curran?= [mailto: [log in to unmask]]<BR><B>To: </B>[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Date: </B>Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:20:30 -0400<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: Grammar Certification<BR><BR>Helene and Dabro,<BR>Re TESOL - I have almost finished a Masters in TESOL but am disappointed <BR>in the practical applications of the course for a practicing teacher. <BR>Although semantics and sociolinguistics are interesting they are of little <BR>help to the housewives in Yokohama. Of course I realise that these studies <BR>give us many insights into the language. I am interested Dabro in which <BR>elements of your TESOL focussed on the teaching of grammar and what kind <BR>of grammar - traditional grammar, linguistic grammar or what?<BR>John<BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:<BR>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><br></font></td></tr></table><p><hr><font size=2 face=verdana><span style='font-weight:bold'>No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.</span><br>Make My Way your home on the Web - <a href=http://www.myway.com target=_blank>http://www.myway.com</a></font></b>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--MYWAYBOUNDARY_000__d380d558b85e09f07e5e851153fef150--
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:03:52 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Bralich <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: grammar certification
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> I think we should see grammar certification as part of much larger
>scale initiative, the Scope and Sequence project.
Honestly I don't see that the one is contained in the other. They are two very different items. One has to do with curriculum planning and the other has to do with test design and teacher qualifications. Certainly in accreditation circles these would never be joined up. The container for both is more accurately ATEG.
Phil Bralich
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:19:56 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: grammar certification
In-Reply-To: A<[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Phil,
My experience with accrediting agencies is different. They want
curriculum and certification closely linked. But I agree that ATEG is
the place for us to work on both of these, as well as the linkage issue.
Herb
> I think we should see grammar certification as part of much larger
>scale initiative, the Scope and Sequence project.=20
Honestly I don't see that the one is contained in the other. They are
two very different items. One has to do with curriculum planning and
the other has to do with test design and teacher qualifications.
Certainly in accreditation circles these would never be joined up. The
container for both is more accurately ATEG. =20
Phil Bralich
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:29:31 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: dabro <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: grammar certification
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="MYWAYBOUNDARY_000__c2dcf254bd324ba0d7611303067b4f46";
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
--MYWAYBOUNDARY_000__c2dcf254bd324ba0d7611303067b4f46
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Herb, That would be a help to all of us who are interested in professional development. An additional certification from ATEG might be prestigious. Peace, David--- On Thu 08/31, Stahlke, Herbert F.W. < [log in to unmask] > wrote:From: Stahlke, Herbert F.W. [mailto: [log in to unmask]]To: [log in to unmask]: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:19:56 -0400Subject: Re: grammar certificationPhil,My experience with accrediting agencies is different. They wantcurriculum and certification closely linked. But I agree that ATEG isthe place for us to work on both of these, as well as the linkage issue.Herb> I think we should see grammar certification as part of much larger>scale initiative, the Scope and Sequence project. Honestly I don't see that the one is contained in the other. They aretwo very different items. One has to do with curriculum planning andthe other has to do with test design and teacher qualifications.Certainly in accreditation circles these would never be joined
up. Thecontainer for both is more accurately ATEG. Phil BralichTo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's webinterface at:http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
_______________________________________________
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--MYWAYBOUNDARY_000__c2dcf254bd324ba0d7611303067b4f46
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<table cellpadding=3 cellspacing=0 border=0 width=100% bgcolor=white><tr valign=top><td width=100%><font size=2 color=black>Herb,<br> <br>That would be a help to all of us who are interested in professional development. An additional certification from ATEG might be prestigious.<br> <br>Peace,<br> <br>David<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--- On Thu 08/31, Stahlke, Herbert F.W. < [log in to unmask] > wrote:<BR><br><BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 7px; MARGIN-LEFT: 7px; BORDER-LEFT: orange 2px solid"><B>From: </B>Stahlke, Herbert F.W. [mailto: [log in to unmask]]<BR><B>To: </B>[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Date: </B>Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:19:56 -0400<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: grammar certification<BR><BR>Phil,<BR><BR>My experience with accrediting agencies is different. They want<BR>curriculum and certification closely linked. But I agree that ATEG is<BR>the place for us to work on both of these, as well as the linkage issue.<BR><BR>Herb<BR><BR>> I think we should see grammar
certification as part of much larger<BR>>scale initiative, the Scope and Sequence project. <BR><BR>Honestly I don't see that the one is contained in the other. They are<BR>two very different items. One has to do with curriculum planning and<BR>the other has to do with test design and teacher qualifications.<BR>Certainly in accreditation circles these would never be joined up. The<BR>container for both is more accurately ATEG. <BR><BR>Phil Bralich<BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<BR>interface at:<BR>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<BR>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></font></td></tr></table><p><hr><font size=2 face=verdana><span
style='font-weight:bold'>No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.</span><br>Make My Way your home on the Web - <a href=http://www.myway.com target=_blank>http://www.myway.com</a></font></b>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--MYWAYBOUNDARY_000__c2dcf254bd324ba0d7611303067b4f46--
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:54:41 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Bralich <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: grammar certification
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Yes, but Scope and Sequence belongs to curriculum alone where as certification belongs to both. It would be better to view scope and sequence as contained by certification than the other way around.
Phil Bralich
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Aug 31, 2006 12:19 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: grammar certification
>
>Phil,
>
>My experience with accrediting agencies is different. They want
>curriculum and certification closely linked. But I agree that ATEG is
>the place for us to work on both of these, as well as the linkage issue.
>
>Herb
>
>> I think we should see grammar certification as part of much larger
>>scale initiative, the Scope and Sequence project.
>
>Honestly I don't see that the one is contained in the other. They are
>two very different items. One has to do with curriculum planning and
>the other has to do with test design and teacher qualifications.
>Certainly in accreditation circles these would never be joined up. The
>container for both is more accurately ATEG.
>
>Phil Bralich
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:04:09 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Johanna Rubba <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I'm trying to understand why the book Rebecca Watson refers to would
"jangle my nerves". I don't know what IEP stands for; that might help
me understand.
Anyone who has read my posts on this list knows that I advocate
teaching grammar in effective ways. For beginning students (for all
students, really), visuals are great. I believe in nouns, verbs,
capitalization, and punctuation. How they're defined and how and when
they're taught is what concerns me. I use my own manuscript in my
structure-of-English classes, and most of my students consistently rate
it between 8 and 10 (10-high) on two criteria: (1) clarity and
accessibility of the information and (2) usefulness of the information
for their future careers as teachers.
I don't recall anyone posting to this list who doesn't want
schoolchildren to come out of K-12 fluent in standard English. It's the
HOW and the WHAT and the WHEN that are at issue.
As to The ESL Grammar Book, I stated clearly in my post that I was
referring to teacher trainees, not ESL students. Maybe it's better as a
reference book than a textbook. I haven't taught from it myself; I'm
just familiar with its contents. Students apparently find it
accessible, since it was in use at MT and Herb has testified to that
effect, and I imagine it is in use elsewhere, or else it wouldn't be on
the market anymore. I do believe that ESL teachers should have Master's
degrees, and that they should have a full year of linguistics, from
phonetics to discourse. If you're going to teach language, you'd better
know your subject.
As to learning linguistic theories when preparing to teach ESL, I don't
see what's wrong with it. Much of teacher education is _background
knowledge_, not necessarily stuff that you will translate directly into
classroom lessons. Teachers need good classroom materials that are
informed by linguistics, too, but those materials will not be theory
books. Such materials aren't widely available right now; that's one
thing some of us are working on. Teachers have also been known to
design their own teaching materials. Understanding how language works
is very useful for that endeavor.
History majors who go on to be high school or middle school history
teachers learn more history in college than they ever teach, I assume.
I know much, much, much more about language than I ever teach, because
all of my classes are introductory, and I have no linguistics MA or PhD
students. A good number of students in our elementary-school teacher ed
program seem to believe that they don't need to know more about the
subjects they will teach than what is in the teaching materials they
will use for their students. This isn't good.
Dr. Johanna Rubba, Associate Professor, Linguistics
Linguistics Minor Advisor
English Department
California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
Tel.: 805.756.2184
Dept. Ofc. Tel.: 805.756.2596
Dept. Fax: 805.756.6374
URL: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:18:50 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Eduard C. Hanganu" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
Johanna:
If this is your recommendation for the book, I agree. On the thread
John was looking for a book which would help him deal with basic to
intermediate TESOL, and I though that the book was too difficult for
such a purpose. For teacher trainees "The Grammar Book" is good, but
it is still a reference book, as the authors state in the beginning
of the book. The Linguistics department at Indiana State uses the
book for teacher training and TESOL certification.
Eduard
On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Johanna Rubba wrote...
>I'm trying to understand why the book Rebecca Watson refers to would
>"jangle my nerves". I don't know what IEP stands for; that might
help
>me understand.
>
>Anyone who has read my posts on this list knows that I advocate
>teaching grammar in effective ways. For beginning students (for all
>students, really), visuals are great. I believe in nouns, verbs,
>capitalization, and punctuation. How they're defined and how and
when
>they're taught is what concerns me. I use my own manuscript in my
>structure-of-English classes, and most of my students consistently
rate
>it between 8 and 10 (10-high) on two criteria: (1) clarity and
>accessibility of the information and (2) usefulness of the
information
>for their future careers as teachers.
>
>I don't recall anyone posting to this list who doesn't want
>schoolchildren to come out of K-12 fluent in standard English. It's
the
>HOW and the WHAT and the WHEN that are at issue.
>
>As to The ESL Grammar Book, I stated clearly in my post that I was
>referring to teacher trainees, not ESL students. Maybe it's better
as a
>reference book than a textbook. I haven't taught from it myself; I'm
>just familiar with its contents. Students apparently find it
>accessible, since it was in use at MT and Herb has testified to that
>effect, and I imagine it is in use elsewhere, or else it wouldn't be
on
>the market anymore. I do believe that ESL teachers should have
Master's
>degrees, and that they should have a full year of linguistics, from
>phonetics to discourse. If you're going to teach language, you'd
better
>know your subject.
>
>As to learning linguistic theories when preparing to teach ESL, I
don't
>see what's wrong with it. Much of teacher education is _background
>knowledge_, not necessarily stuff that you will translate directly
into
>classroom lessons. Teachers need good classroom materials that are
>informed by linguistics, too, but those materials will not be theory
>books. Such materials aren't widely available right now; that's one
>thing some of us are working on. Teachers have also been known to
>design their own teaching materials. Understanding how language
works
>is very useful for that endeavor.
>
>History majors who go on to be high school or middle school history
>teachers learn more history in college than they ever teach, I
assume.
>I know much, much, much more about language than I ever teach,
because
>all of my classes are introductory, and I have no linguistics MA or
PhD
>students. A good number of students in our elementary-school teacher
ed
>program seem to believe that they don't need to know more about the
>subjects they will teach than what is in the teaching materials they
>will use for their students. This isn't good.
>
>Dr. Johanna Rubba, Associate Professor, Linguistics
>Linguistics Minor Advisor
>English Department
>California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
>E-mail: [log in to unmask]
>Tel.: 805.756.2184
>Dept. Ofc. Tel.: 805.756.2596
>Dept. Fax: 805.756.6374
>URL: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:31:16 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Bralich <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: grammar certification
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Phil continues to speak about a grammar curriculum as if it already
>exists, citing works like The Elements of Style, a book I like very
>much but hardly think of as a comprehensive grammar. Certainly, E.B.
>White never thought about it that way. The Chicago Manual of Style is a
>very difficult book for anyone not well grounded in grammar already.
>
You misunderstand me. What to be taught already exists in the books I sited and many, many mnore places. That is, there is a world of professionals out there with a significant and sophisticated knowledge of grammar making decisions all the time. Therefore, if we are too exotic or youthfully exhuberant our efforts will not be widely accepted. Some of the proposals on this list in the past have had the texture of being too exotic and youthfully exhubterant, hence my comments.
I am sure there are also many places where the curriculum does exist, as in Indiana as mentioned earlier. There are also past curricula that would could probably dig up. The only thing that does not exist that concerns us is the curricula and scope and sequence recommendations by ATEG. We could probably save a lot of time by going through Indiana's curriculum. But we will be wasting time by being excessively experimental or youthful.
Phil Bralich
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:34:46 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-647563722-1157063686=:85816"
--0-647563722-1157063686=:85816
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Johanna,
An IEP is an "Individualized Education Plan" that is developed for students with special education needs during a planning meeting (called a PPT) among the student, his councillor, administrators, teachers, and sometimes psychologists and other aids. There very common in public schools. Sometimes there also very successful in helping students improve in their schoolwork (and sometimes not -- usually because of what the student does).
Paul D.
----- Original Message ----
From: Johanna Rubba <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 6:04:09 PM
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
I'm trying to understand why the book Rebecca Watson refers to would
"jangle my nerves". I don't know what IEP stands for; that might help
me understand.
Anyone who has read my posts on this list knows that I advocate
teaching grammar in effective ways. For beginning students (for all
students, really), visuals are great. I believe in nouns, verbs,
capitalization, and punctuation. How they're defined and how and when
they're taught is what concerns me. I use my own manuscript in my
structure-of-English classes, and most of my students consistently rate
it between 8 and 10 (10-high) on two criteria: (1) clarity and
accessibility of the information and (2) usefulness of the information
for their future careers as teachers.
I don't recall anyone posting to this list who doesn't want
schoolchildren to come out of K-12 fluent in standard English. It's the
HOW and the WHAT and the WHEN that are at issue.
As to The ESL Grammar Book, I stated clearly in my post that I was
referring to teacher trainees, not ESL students. Maybe it's better as a
reference book than a textbook. I haven't taught from it myself; I'm
just familiar with its contents. Students apparently find it
accessible, since it was in use at MT and Herb has testified to that
effect, and I imagine it is in use elsewhere, or else it wouldn't be on
the market anymore. I do believe that ESL teachers should have Master's
degrees, and that they should have a full year of linguistics, from
phonetics to discourse. If you're going to teach language, you'd better
know your subject.
As to learning linguistic theories when preparing to teach ESL, I don't
see what's wrong with it. Much of teacher education is _background
knowledge_, not necessarily stuff that you will translate directly into
classroom lessons. Teachers need good classroom materials that are
informed by linguistics, too, but those materials will not be theory
books. Such materials aren't widely available right now; that's one
thing some of us are working on. Teachers have also been known to
design their own teaching materials. Understanding how language works
is very useful for that endeavor.
History majors who go on to be high school or middle school history
teachers learn more history in college than they ever teach, I assume.
I know much, much, much more about language than I ever teach, because
all of my classes are introductory, and I have no linguistics MA or PhD
students. A good number of students in our elementary-school teacher ed
program seem to believe that they don't need to know more about the
subjects they will teach than what is in the teaching materials they
will use for their students. This isn't good.
Dr. Johanna Rubba, Associate Professor, Linguistics
Linguistics Minor Advisor
English Department
California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
Tel.: 805.756.2184
Dept. Ofc. Tel.: 805.756.2596
Dept. Fax: 805.756.6374
URL: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-647563722-1157063686=:85816
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:tahoma, new york, times, serif;font-size:10pt"><DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif">Johanna,</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif">An IEP is an "Individualized Education Plan" that is developed for students with special education needs during a planning meeting (called a PPT) among the student, his councillor, administrators, teachers, and sometimes psychologists and other aids. There very common in public schools. Sometimes there also very successful in helping students improve in their schoolwork (and sometimes not -- usually because of what the student does). </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif">Paul D.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">----- Original Message ----<BR>From: Johanna Rubba <[log in to unmask]><BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 6:04:09 PM<BR>Subject: Re: Grammar Certification<BR><BR>
<DIV>I'm trying to understand why the book Rebecca Watson refers to would <BR>"jangle my nerves". I don't know what IEP stands for; that might help <BR>me understand.<BR><BR>Anyone who has read my posts on this list knows that I advocate <BR>teaching grammar in effective ways. For beginning students (for all <BR>students, really), visuals are great. I believe in nouns, verbs, <BR>capitalization, and punctuation. How they're defined and how and when <BR>they're taught is what concerns me. I use my own manuscript in my <BR>structure-of-English classes, and most of my students consistently rate <BR>it between 8 and 10 (10-high) on two criteria: (1) clarity and <BR>accessibility of the information and (2) usefulness of the information <BR>for their future careers as teachers.<BR><BR>I don't recall anyone posting to this list who doesn't want <BR>schoolchildren to come out of K-12 fluent in standard English. It's the <BR>HOW and the WHAT and the WHEN that are at issue.<BR><BR>As
to The ESL Grammar Book, I stated clearly in my post that I was <BR>referring to teacher trainees, not ESL students. Maybe it's better as a <BR>reference book than a textbook. I haven't taught from it myself; I'm <BR>just familiar with its contents. Students apparently find it <BR>accessible, since it was in use at MT and Herb has testified to that <BR>effect, and I imagine it is in use elsewhere, or else it wouldn't be on <BR>the market anymore. I do believe that ESL teachers should have Master's <BR>degrees, and that they should have a full year of linguistics, from <BR>phonetics to discourse. If you're going to teach language, you'd better <BR>know your subject.<BR><BR>As to learning linguistic theories when preparing to teach ESL, I don't <BR>see what's wrong with it. Much of teacher education is _background <BR>knowledge_, not necessarily stuff that you will translate directly into <BR>classroom lessons. Teachers need good classroom materials that are
<BR>informed by linguistics, too, but those materials will not be theory <BR>books. Such materials aren't widely available right now; that's one <BR>thing some of us are working on. Teachers have also been known to <BR>design their own teaching materials. Understanding how language works <BR>is very useful for that endeavor.<BR><BR>History majors who go on to be high school or middle school history <BR>teachers learn more history in college than they ever teach, I assume. <BR>I know much, much, much more about language than I ever teach, because <BR>all of my classes are introductory, and I have no linguistics MA or PhD <BR>students. A good number of students in our elementary-school teacher ed <BR>program seem to believe that they don't need to know more about the <BR>subjects they will teach than what is in the teaching materials they <BR>will use for their students. This isn't good.<BR><BR>Dr. Johanna Rubba, Associate Professor, Linguistics<BR>Linguistics Minor
Advisor<BR>English Department<BR>California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo<BR>E-mail: [log in to unmask]<BR>Tel.: 805.756.2184<BR>Dept. Ofc. Tel.: 805.756.2596<BR>Dept. Fax: 805.756.6374<BR>URL: <A href="http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba" target=_blank>http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba</A><BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<BR> <A href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A href="http://ateg.org/" target=_blank>http://ateg.org/</A></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif"><BR></DIV></div></body></html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-647563722-1157063686=:85816--
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:47:39 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
It is interesting how we interpret acronyms from our own special
domain.
>>> [log in to unmask] 8/31/2006 5:34 PM >>>
Johanna,
An IEP is an "Individualized Education Plan" that is developed for
students with special education needs during a planning meeting (called
a PPT) among the student, his councillor, administrators, teachers, and
sometimes psychologists and other aids. There very common in public
schools. Sometimes there also very successful in helping students
improve in their schoolwork (and sometimes not -- usually because of
what the student does).
Paul D.
Within public education circles, especially for native speakers, Paul
is absolutely correct; however,I don't think that is not what Rebecca
is referring to.
After that, each part of speech (elementary analysis!)
is captured using distinct marks. Visually, it is easy to see and
learn. And the different marks are easy to learn. My True Beginning
IEP students loved seeing how a sentence (again, elementary) is put
together. Lots of "AHHHH!".
In universities in the United States, IEP means Intensive English
Programs.
That seems to fit with the context of Rebecca's post.
Bob Yates, Central Missouri State University
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:54:11 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: grammar certification
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2033944613-1157064851=:39179"
--0-2033944613-1157064851=:39179
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Craig's comments are emminently logical:
"We have a chance to bring people together, and I worry that a
contentious commitment to certifying people will run counter to that.
What do we tell someone who asks what we want people to teach? Why not
offer a scope and sequence, make recommendations for what teachers
should know, and then help make in-service classes available on a more
widespread basis?"
Grammar is one leg of the table of the English/Language Arts curriculum; as it stands now, it is perhaps a very wobbly leg that needs fixing, but it is not the whole table. Our job at ATEG is to try to fix that leg. If we try to separate it from the rest of the English curriculum, it will fall down. A separate certification in grammar is pie-in-the-sky thinking. Rather, it would be more logical to try to make grammar become a stronger, sturdier leg in the English/Language Arts certification requirements in all 50 states (through more grammar testing on Praxis exams, for example) and require more rigorous grammar instruction for future English teachers.
Just my two cents.
Paul D.
----- Original Message ----
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 9:51:25 AM
Subject: grammar certification
I think we should see grammar certification as part of much larger
scale initiative, the Scope and Sequence project. From the start, we
have seen teacher training as an important element. Amanda Godley gave
a thoughtful presentation on this at the conference. My sense is that
many linguistics departments, including her own, have lobbied hard for
more grammar in English and teacher training, but have, until now at
least, met with resistance. I think we should advocate these long-term
goals:
1) restoration of comprehensive exploration of language, including syntax,
in K-12. Once this happens, of course, future teachers will have a much
more solid foundation to build on in their teacher training classes.
2) routinely including at least three classes in language for English
teaching and elementary teaching majors. This would include an overview of
linguistics, a single course just on syntax, and a course exploring the
role of language in reading and writing and in reading and writing
instruction. I also like the idea that schools could/should have language
experts on staff, experts that other teachers could go to for advice and
assistance. This is happening in the Maryland project, with some success.
Such a person would have an even stronger background in language studies.
Given the nature of today's students, this would include ESL.
3) If a school system wanted to (or was forced to) reintegrate grammar
into the curriculum, we should have recommendations in place for training
of current teachers. The Maryland project is very handy precisely because
they have done exactly that, brining Martha in as a consultant and paying
for the training of their current staff.
4) ATEG has been offering in-service training for years as part of our
conference. I have never been part of it and don't know the details of
what is covered, but people who come through it seem very grateful and
satisfied. These, of course, are willing participants, not just teachers
who are being forced into it. Perhaps we need to expand that operation. It
doesn't do much good to have a certification program if there's no way to
meet those goals. I guess I'm suggesting more carrot than stick.
Phil continues to speak about a grammar curriculum as if it already
exists, citing works like The Elements of Style, a book I like very
much but hardly think of as a comprehensive grammar. Certainly, E.B.
White never thought about it that way. The Chicago Manual of Style is a
very difficult book for anyone not well grounded in grammar already.
We seem on our way toward a thoughtfully modified traditional grammar,
but I think we will hurt the project if we simply say that we want to
reinstate the old traditional grammar and teach it in the same old
ways. As someone trained and experienced in composition, fairly well
tuned in to the current talk in my field, I think an old unmodified
grammar won't sell. Conference presentations on rhetorically focused or
meaning-centered grammar seem to be enthusiastically attended and
received. We need to be more articulate about ways in which grammar
participates in the effectiveness of discourse, about ways in which it
is so much more than a set of constraints. If it's all about "error",
then people want to know why they need to know it if they already
behave properly.
We have a chance to bring people together, and I worry that a
contentious commitment to certifying people will run counter to that.
What do we tell someone who asks what we want people to teach? Why not
offer a scope and sequence, make recommendations for what teachers
should know, and then help make in-service classes available on a more
widespread basis? We could offer certificates of completion and make
sure they mean something.
Craig
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-2033944613-1157064851=:39179
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:tahoma, new york, times, serif;font-size:10pt"><DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif">Craig's comments are emminently logical: </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif">"We have a chance to bring people together, and I worry that a<BR>contentious commitment to certifying people will run counter to that.<BR> What do we tell someone who asks what we want people to teach? Why not<BR>offer a scope and sequence, make recommendations for what teachers<BR>should know, and then help make in-service classes available on a more<BR>widespread basis?"</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif">Grammar is one leg of the table of the English/Language Arts curriculum; as it stands now, it is perhaps a very wobbly leg that needs fixing, but it is not the whole table. Our job at ATEG is to try to fix that leg. If we try to separate it from the rest of the English curriculum, it will fall down. A separate certification in grammar is pie-in-the-sky thinking. Rather, it would be more logical to try to make grammar become a stronger, sturdier leg in the English/Language Arts certification requirements in all 50 states (through more grammar testing on Praxis exams, for example) and require more rigorous grammar instruction for future English teachers.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif">Just my two cents.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif">Paul D.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">----- Original Message ----<BR>From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]><BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 9:51:25 AM<BR>Subject: grammar certification<BR><BR>
<DIV>I think we should see grammar certification as part of much larger<BR>scale initiative, the Scope and Sequence project. From the start, we<BR>have seen teacher training as an important element. Amanda Godley gave<BR>a thoughtful presentation on this at the conference. My sense is that<BR>many linguistics departments, including her own, have lobbied hard for<BR>more grammar in English and teacher training, but have, until now at<BR>least, met with resistance. I think we should advocate these long-term<BR>goals:<BR>1) restoration of comprehensive exploration of language, including syntax,<BR>in K-12. Once this happens, of course, future teachers will have a much<BR>more solid foundation to build on in their teacher training classes.<BR>2) routinely including at least three classes in language for English<BR>teaching and elementary teaching majors. This would include an overview of<BR>linguistics, a single course just on syntax, and a course exploring the<BR>role of
language in reading and writing and in reading and writing<BR>instruction. I also like the idea that schools could/should have language<BR>experts on staff, experts that other teachers could go to for advice and<BR>assistance. This is happening in the Maryland project, with some success.<BR>Such a person would have an even stronger background in language studies.<BR>Given the nature of today's students, this would include ESL.<BR>3) If a school system wanted to (or was forced to) reintegrate grammar<BR>into the curriculum, we should have recommendations in place for training<BR>of current teachers. The Maryland project is very handy precisely because<BR>they have done exactly that, brining Martha in as a consultant and paying<BR>for the training of their current staff.<BR>4) ATEG has been offering in-service training for years as part of our<BR>conference. I have never been part of it and don't know the details of<BR>what is covered, but people who come through it seem
very grateful and<BR>satisfied. These, of course, are willing participants, not just teachers<BR>who are being forced into it. Perhaps we need to expand that operation. It<BR>doesn't do much good to have a certification program if there's no way to<BR>meet those goals. I guess I'm suggesting more carrot than stick.<BR><BR> Phil continues to speak about a grammar curriculum as if it already<BR>exists, citing works like The Elements of Style, a book I like very<BR>much but hardly think of as a comprehensive grammar. Certainly, E.B.<BR>White never thought about it that way. The Chicago Manual of Style is a<BR>very difficult book for anyone not well grounded in grammar already.<BR> We seem on our way toward a thoughtfully modified traditional grammar,<BR>but I think we will hurt the project if we simply say that we want to<BR>reinstate the old traditional grammar and teach it in the same old<BR>ways. As someone trained and experienced in composition,
fairly well<BR>tuned in to the current talk in my field, I think an old unmodified<BR>grammar won't sell. Conference presentations on rhetorically focused or<BR>meaning-centered grammar seem to be enthusiastically attended and<BR>received. We need to be more articulate about ways in which grammar<BR>participates in the effectiveness of discourse, about ways in which it<BR>is so much more than a set of constraints. If it's all about "error",<BR>then people want to know why they need to know it if they already<BR>behave properly.<BR> We have a chance to bring people together, and I worry that a<BR>contentious commitment to certifying people will run counter to that.<BR> What do we tell someone who asks what we want people to teach? Why not<BR>offer a scope and sequence, make recommendations for what teachers<BR>should know, and then help make in-service classes available on a more<BR>widespread basis? We could offer certificates of completion and
make<BR>sure they mean something.<BR><BR>Craig<BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<BR> <A href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A href="http://ateg.org/" target=_blank>http://ateg.org/</A></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif"><BR></DIV></div></body></html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-2033944613-1157064851=:39179--
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:12:58 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Bralich <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: grammar certification
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>Certification is hardly pie-in-the-sky thinking. And it could actually be the most important thing to revitalizing grammar in all areas. It provides a reasoned and professional manner to improve the skills in the teacher while at the same time giving him some proof of his acumen and efforts. We are more likely to see a proliferation of such certificates and a need for them to be judged in a manner similar to accreditation that we are to see them disappear. Schools need new programs to sharpen them up, give new people something to do and so on. This is valuable for the community and could even be profitable for the institute. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>We also need to worry about the need for the ATEG scope and sequence committee may become obviated by beautiful examples like the Indiana school system. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>That being said, tougher grammar requirements on the PRAXIS, CBEST, and so on is a very good suggestion. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Phil Bralich</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif">
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif">A separate certification in grammar is pie-in-the-sky thinking. Rather, it would be more logical to try to make grammar become a stronger, sturdier leg in the English/Language Arts certification requirements in all 50 states (through more grammar testing on Praxis exams, for example) and require more rigorous grammar instruction for future English teachers.</DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:14:08 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Eduard C. Hanganu wrote: "I beg to disagree with your evaluation of
Celce-Murcia's textbook."
Eduard:
I'm surprised that your disagreement wasn't based on finding the many
reference to the term "ESL" offensive ("The ESL Grammar Book" - "it is used
as a textbook in ESL teacher-training" - "The problem with many current ESL
teachers . . ." - "ESL teaching . . .").
I recall your taking me to task for using this term, mate.
Geoff Layton
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:09:26 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There has been some hint of polarization on the list, and I interpreted =
Rebecca Watson's "jangle my nerves" in that context. If I have done =
Rebecca a disservice I apologize, but I'm more concerned that there may =
in fact be some polarization, which leads to partisanship, which is, as =
we see too often in Congress and in political debate, the point at which =
critical thinking shuts down.
I hope I'm wrong about this, because we need all the critical thinking =
we can get on the tasks we've set for ourselves.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Johanna =
Rubba
Sent: Thu 8/31/2006 5:04 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
=20
I'm trying to understand why the book Rebecca Watson refers to would=20
"jangle my nerves". I don't know what IEP stands for; that might help=20
me understand.
Anyone who has read my posts on this list knows that I advocate=20
teaching grammar in effective ways. For beginning students (for all=20
students, really), visuals are great. I believe in nouns, verbs,=20
capitalization, and punctuation. How they're defined and how and when=20
they're taught is what concerns me. I use my own manuscript in my=20
structure-of-English classes, and most of my students consistently rate=20
it between 8 and 10 (10-high) on two criteria: (1) clarity and=20
accessibility of the information and (2) usefulness of the information=20
for their future careers as teachers.
I don't recall anyone posting to this list who doesn't want=20
schoolchildren to come out of K-12 fluent in standard English. It's the=20
HOW and the WHAT and the WHEN that are at issue.
As to The ESL Grammar Book, I stated clearly in my post that I was=20
referring to teacher trainees, not ESL students. Maybe it's better as a=20
reference book than a textbook. I haven't taught from it myself; I'm=20
just familiar with its contents. Students apparently find it=20
accessible, since it was in use at MT and Herb has testified to that=20
effect, and I imagine it is in use elsewhere, or else it wouldn't be on=20
the market anymore. I do believe that ESL teachers should have Master's=20
degrees, and that they should have a full year of linguistics, from=20
phonetics to discourse. If you're going to teach language, you'd better=20
know your subject.
As to learning linguistic theories when preparing to teach ESL, I don't=20
see what's wrong with it. Much of teacher education is _background=20
knowledge_, not necessarily stuff that you will translate directly into=20
classroom lessons. Teachers need good classroom materials that are=20
informed by linguistics, too, but those materials will not be theory=20
books. Such materials aren't widely available right now; that's one=20
thing some of us are working on. Teachers have also been known to=20
design their own teaching materials. Understanding how language works=20
is very useful for that endeavor.
History majors who go on to be high school or middle school history=20
teachers learn more history in college than they ever teach, I assume.=20
I know much, much, much more about language than I ever teach, because=20
all of my classes are introductory, and I have no linguistics MA or PhD=20
students. A good number of students in our elementary-school teacher ed=20
program seem to believe that they don't need to know more about the=20
subjects they will teach than what is in the teaching materials they=20
will use for their students. This isn't good.
Dr. Johanna Rubba, Associate Professor, Linguistics
Linguistics Minor Advisor
English Department
California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
Tel.: 805.756.2184
Dept. Ofc. Tel.: 805.756.2596
Dept. Fax: 805.756.6374
URL: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/