Perhaps some of you are familiar with the book by Marianne Celce-Murcia and Diane Larsen-Freeman, "The ESL Grammar Book". I believe it is used as a textbook in ESL teacher-training programs (it was at U of MT when I taught there one semester a long time ago). It covers a great deal of English grammar. I think if a teacher trainee had this as a textbook and didn't learn anything about English grammar, it would be the trainee's fault. The problem with many current ESL teachers is that, even if they had grammar training in their teacher-prep courses, one semester or even more is often not enough to make up for the many years missed in K-12. They might learn enough to pass a test and get their degree, but they have to return to the subject again and again to get proficient enough to teach grammar with ease. Although I don't agree with Phil's version of what grammar to teach, I do agree that grammar teaching should start early and continue throughout the grades. I also find it absurd that students who want to become teachers of French, German, or whatever, are often not required to take any linguistics (not even second-language-acquisition theory or teaching methods). ESL teaching is the only area of language education I know of that is based on real linguistics instead of the "great literature" & grammar/translation tradition. (Although inroads have been made by textbook authors like Tracy Terrell and his associates.) Dr. Johanna Rubba, Associate Professor, Linguistics Linguistics Minor Advisor English Department California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo E-mail: [log in to unmask] Tel.: 805.756.2184 Dept. Ofc. Tel.: 805.756.2596 Dept. Fax: 805.756.6374 URL: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/