Thank you, Johanna, for yout July 28th message! I returned from a brief holiday to find my mailbox over quota and have been following the terminology thread with some perplexity. Using both terms is the obvious solution. What I have found particularly interesting in Phil's posts is his frequent use of the word "discover" - Isn't that the direction we want to be going in? Is there a phenomenological approach in teaching grammar where students of all ages can be led in a path of increasing complexity to discover for themselves? Once one has discovered something for oneself, one is usually interested in who else has discovered this, including, often, what past discoverers have named the thing discovered. I continue to be somewhat wistful about the middle school textbook that Neil Postman published in 1963 - Discovering Your Language - He used Form-Classes, by the way - There was an excellent beginning to a new approach to grammar in the 60's - then the derailment - now we have another chance - let's get on with the task. Anne Greer Sign up today for your Free E-mail at: http://www.canoe.ca/CanoeMail To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/