Dear MJC, I am so sorry --I must have overlooked this message. I see, though, from the comments here that my posting really was misunderstood. I have a very good knowledge of language diversification and would certainly not confuse what I see as a breakdown in formal English with the natural development of dialects, etc. I need to stress that these are very different processes. I realize that most linguists and teachers are unacquainted with language acquisition problems and with the level of language that is "naturally" acquired. The formal level of language associated with literacy is not learned unconsciously. The dismal formal- level English skills (i.e., more complex structures of the language, higher-level vocabulary) of native-speaker ESL teachers directly affects the progress of ESL students in the schools. yvonne ---- Original message ---- >Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 11:59:50 +0300 >From: MCJ <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: Re: Re ESL teachers' language skills: A misunderstanding? >To: [log in to unmask] > >Robert Yates wrote: > >>Yvonne, >> >>The formatting of your post with examples confused me. >> >>I would very much like to read your analysis of why you consider these >>examples of a language deficit. >> >> >I expect the problem is with the term "language deficit". I understood >that Yvonne meant some deviation from the standardized usage and grammar >reflected in most of teaching material currently used. Teachers, and >especially English teachers, are the primary models students have for >correct English, and if teachers don't present reliable models for >students then the English that they teach must been seen as an abstract >academic language. Some students will master it but most will regard it >as useless and irrelevant. > >I live in the Arab world. The problem here is more visible, perhaps >because of the legendary "diglossia" of the Arabs. Most K- 12 Arabic >instructors, and also many at university level, are not skilled speakers >of the standard Arabic dialect that they teach, so written Arabic has in >most places become an exclusively literary language. This obviously gets >in the way of reading and is probably one of the major factors behind >the rise in functional illiteracy among otherwise well- educated >people.The difficulties begin in primary school where pupils who are >only just learning to read and write are confronted with words and >structures that are, for them, completely foreign and incomprehensible. >Highly negative attitudes toward local dialects as "corrupt" prevent any >attempt at translation. > >These are the kinds of problems that English speaking people probably >want to avoid, and if the Arabs could not avoid them simply by teaching >"grammar" to children, you will not succeed in this way either. The >fossilized grammar of Arabic does not reflect the way people speak, or >indeed think. Academic Arabic is elitist and incomprehensible to most >people, who, being set adrift with no literary life of their own, must >themelves suffer from a certain "language deficit", being now unable to >express their thoughts or feelings effectively. They do not understand >one another and cannot communicate with others, and this effects every >sphere of public life, causing great problems in politics in particular. > >Yvonne's term, "language deficit" is probably an unfortunate choice, but >this failure to understand what she means is illustrative of what will >happen if people fail to get a grip on their language and how it is >taught and used. > >Omar > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ Yvonne Stapp PhD Assistant Professor of ESL James Madison University Dept of Exceptional Education MSC 6908 Memorial Hall 3130B Harrisonburg, VA 22807 phone 540-568-4525 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/