At least you didn't write 'sight'! To clarify, I meant that the standards were slipping, not the NY Times itself (their reputation still holds well with me). However, I'll try to dig up a couple of examples (I usually don't save them., so it may take me some time). Also, I am aware of the phenomenon you mention. Swift and Pope and Defoe all fell prey to it centuries ago. Paul D. --- "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Yikes! I wrote "any examples you could site." > > > > Standards are slipping! > > > > ________________________ > > > > Richard Veit > > Department of English, UNCW > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard > Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 6:17 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Changes of register (was: Adverb of Manner) > > > > Paul, > > > > The editors I work with on my books are anything but careless, and I've > been impressed by their knowledge of conventions and attention to > detail. I'd be surprised if the NY Times hires editors who are any less > skilled. I read the Sunday Times in print and the daily online version > and am not aware of their "having slipped a great deal." Do you mean > that they have changed their conventions, or that they no longer > consistently observe their conventions? I'd be interested in seeing any > examples you could site. > > > > I know you are aware of the language-is-deteriorating phenomenon. For > those who don't, there are ample examples from every period of history > in every language of statements that usually run "A generation ago, > people spoke better/wrote better/had higher standards, but today > standards have slipped/people are now ignorant/lazy/the language has > deteriorated." The problem is that people said exactly the same thing a > generation ago/ a hundred years ago/ five hundred years ago-and every > period in between. The evident conclusion is that this is a > psychological phenomenon rather that a linguistic phenomenon. > > > > I'm not saying you're wrong about deterioration in journalism. I would > like to see support for statements such as the one you made about the > Times. > > > > Dick Veit > > > > ________________________ > > > > Richard Veit > > Department of English, UNCW > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger > Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 1:49 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Changes of register (was: Adverb of Manner) > > > > I could be sticking my neck out, but it seems to me that journalism has > relaxed its rules excessively in recent years, or the quality of writing > and editing has been lowered. I say this knowing full well that I am > married to a newspaper editor who holds very high standards; also, The > NY Times holds the reputation for highest standards in the industry > (they literally wrote the book on journailstic writing). However, they > all seem to have slipped a great deal -- even public radio has become > careless (if this is the right word) in it's use of formal language. I'm > not sure where this comes from, but I suspect that there is a direct > correlation between this and the lack of formal (I did not say > traditional!) grammar instruction in the lower grades (K-8? K-12?). > > > > I would not accept a change of register as standard simply because of > its use in the media, but I suspect I am in a minority. > > > > Paul D. > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Peter Adams <[log in to unmask]> > To: [log in to unmask] > Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 9:52:38 AM > Subject: Re: Adverb of Manner > > > In a message dated 8/16/06 9:49:55 AM, [log in to unmask] writes: > > > > > it is the case that as the language changes it tends to change in > informal registers before the change creeps into more formal usage. > Teaching register as a part of teaching grammar is a good way to > acquaint students with notions of appropriateness and of change in > progress. > > > Good point, Herb. But I guess what I'm puzzled by is how to know when a > change has been accepted for writing in a fair(ly) formal register . . . > like the New York Times. > > > > > Peter Adams > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV > list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave > the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/