I use a 16th c. poem in some of my grammar classes, Sir Philip Sydney's "With how sad steps", partly because it contains structures students aren't familiar with and don't know how to interpret. The grammatical analysis of these structures helps them to work through other unfamiliar and complex structures. Herb ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Johanna Rubba Sent: Wed 8/23/2006 6:59 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Grammar instruction--how early and what kind? Paul, I favor using the "-al" suffix to distinguish class from function. It is a little subtle, and hard for older students who aren't used to studying about language, and for people who have internalized traditional grammar. But I can't think of an alternative, and it should work well if it is introduced and maintained in a long-term (over years!) grammar curriculum. I also believe it's important to go to even-more superordinate levels, like "head", "modifier", and "complement". All at the appropriate age, of course. Craig raised the issue of the complexity of written texts in an earlier post. I believe a major reason students have trouble with these texts is that they don't read enough -- not enough of such texts, and not enough, period. I think we will find that studying grammar helps with reading ability, but I believe the main way to become fluent at reading is by reading, and progressing incrementally from easier to harder levels (like we used to do in school). (Granted, school readers still advance incrementally, but too many kids aren't doing enough reading to become fluent at the higher levels.) I also remain firmly convinced that reading high-level texts is necessary to being able to write them. No grammar course can teach the full range of structures used in high-level writing. Not only is there variety in grammar, but there is a very large number of fixed expressions that occur in formal writing (such as "I remain firmly convinced"). Language learning doesn't stop at age 5. People continue to learn unconsciously probably all of their lives, but certainly very actively in childhood and adolescence. Dr. Johanna Rubba, Associate Professor, Linguistics Linguistics Minor Advisor English Department California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo E-mail: [log in to unmask] Tel.: 805.756.2184 Dept. Ofc. Tel.: 805.756.2596 Dept. Fax: 805.756.6374 URL: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/