Thanks, Craig, for your comments and for your steering me toward some helpful texts after the ATEG meeting Saturday evening in Nashville. Your helpful remarks that day went a long way toward clarifying the ideas and positions in this discussion. I am reading Hillock's book on teaching writing (1995), and it is a page-turner for me today (on the planes back to Salt Lake). It was good to meet you and several others Saturday. Gordon Hultberg Salt Lake City At 01:10 PM 11/20/2006, you wrote: >Peter, > In some ways...and it can be painful at times...we need to take some >responsibility for the misunderstandings our students come away with. >We need to do the same thing as conversationalists and as writers, so >I'll try to be more articulate this time around. I apologize that I'm >working these ideas through from a few intuitions that I am taking away >from Nashville. > I know that's not a direct response to your point. In this case, the >student gave this as the core of what she learned about grammar, by >which she meant that this is what the teacher wanted her to change >about her writing. She learned how to take the contractions out and >thought she was learning grammar by doing that. The point I was hoping >to make is that this is what passed for grammar, but should really be >thought of as bad writing advice, not grammar at all. There's nothing I >know of in the study of grammar that would support the idea of avoiding >contractions, even in fairly formal registers. > To me, this would parallel lots of prescriptive advice about writing, >such as the idea that a paragraph has to have a certain amount of >sentences. If you ask your students what a paragraph is, you will find >out quickly what they believe from what they have been taught, and much >of it seems fairly silly. The only way to counter it is to say that >it's advice that is not based on a close look at how language works, >but simply on the idiosyncratic prejudices or misunderstandings of the >teacher. > "Grammar at the point of need" (grammar in context) in many cases is >not bad grammar teaching, but bad advice about writing passing itself >off as grammar. If it's dysfunctional, then the argument might be >whether we should allow the teaching of writing. > To teach grammar well, we need to look closely at the way effective >text operates. This is from Debra Myhill: "The real power of looking at >language is in making connections for the learner between what a text >means and how it achieves that meaning. Both are important focuses and >both are mutually complementary." > So, to me at least, the question is whether writing teaching should >focus on asking students to follow formal rules that have no basis in >the real world, or should it ask them to emulate the work of effective >writers. It's not a question about whether grammar helps or hurts >writing, but about whether students should be allowed to be real >writers. > If the only thing the student is worried about is being "correct" and >the notions of correctness are idiosyncratic, then we have a model for >terrible teaching. To blame that on "Grammar" is absurd. > In a true study of gramamr, the errors in this approach would be >readily apparent. The practice continues because we are avoiding >grammar, not because we are embracing it. > So that's what I would say today if I were in Herb's place. Without a >strong grounding in how language works (how meaning happens), most >teachers will give terrible advice about writing, much of it in the >name of "grammar". > Without knowledge about how language works, the teaching of writing >cannot progress very far. Without that knowledge base, teachers may in >fact do great damage. > We can make a parallel argument for reading. > >Craig > >Craig, > > > > Your example about the ban on contractions was telling, but it also > > reminded > > me of an experience I had a couple of years ago. Early in the semester > > in a > > freshman comp course, a student reported that she had been told never to > > use > > the pronoun "you" in college writing. Perhaps with an edge of > > indignation in > > my voice, I asked, "Who told you that?" She replied, "You did last > > semester > > in developmental writing." > > > > Now, I would never tell anyone they can't use the pronoun "you," but > > clearly > > this student thought I had. . . . Sometimes what students is hear is > > different from what we think we said. > > > > > > Peter Adams > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > > at: > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > > and select "Join or leave the list" > > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/