Certainly in Modern Norwegian, the structure works: Johan, hans far er Johannes. or Johan sin far er Johannes. or Johans far er Johannes. All mean the same: " Johan's father is Johannes." Sara At 01:57 PM 1/26/2007, Linda DiDesidero wrote: > Someone who has studied German linguistics can probably answer this > better than I, but let me throw a factoid and question into the pot. > >In German, you can say: >--Max dessen Vater (Max his father/ Max's father) >--Helga deren Vater (Helga her father/ Helga's father) > >As I understand it, these are rather old fashioned constructions, but >people still use them. > >It would make sense to think that "Mars his sword" derives from the same >place. And Dallin's comment about the 'es' in Old English genitive would >be consistent with 'dessen' for masculine in German. Does anyone know more? > >Linda > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [log in to unmask] >To: [log in to unmask] >Sent: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 1:17 PM >Subject: Re: his genitive > >Jan. 23, 2007 > >Hi, > >I think that rather than either/or, we may have a case of two different >currents feeding into our current apostrophe form for the genitive. In >the Old English of over one thousand years ago, the genitive (possessive) >singular suffix form for what is termed “the masculine a-stem nouns” >(the largest noun class in their elaborate case language) was es. I have >seen iit explained that our modern apostrophe plus “s” comes from that >earlier case form (the “e” was dropped, and the apostrophe marks that >deletion) . But I have also seen the explanation that you gave. Given >that both forms “his” plus the noun that is possessed, and the earlier >form “-es” inflected on the noun preceding the possessed noun, I think >it is possible that both forms may have contributed to our current form. > >Dallin D. Oaks >Brigham Young University > > >---------- >From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane Saral >Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 8:49 AM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: his genitive > >A colleague has sent us the following query, and I thought I'd see what >the experts of this body have to say on the matter: > >Folks, I was enmeshed in Shakespeare's sonnet #54 and pointed out that >"Mars his sword" reminds us the possessive apostrophe is there to show >letters have been omitted, whereupon one student said he understood that >was an urban legend. "John's Mini Cooper" did not historically replace >"John his Mini," he said. I love it when students teach the teacher, but >this one is new to me. Anybody know the real scoop??? > >Jane Saral >The Westminster Schools >Atlanta, GA >[log in to unmask] > > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or >leave the list" >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or >leave the list" >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >---------- ><http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/1615326657x4311227241x4298082137/aol?redir=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaol%2Ecom%2Fnewaol>Check >out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, >free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free >AOL Mail and more. >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or >leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/