The recent talk on list saddens me in some ways, so I thought I would throw in a few observations from several decades of working with "at-risk" students and from wrestling with these difficult issues. 1) I have been told repeatedly from admissions officers that high school average is a much better predictor of college success than SAT or ACT scores. Presumably that is because it measures things like work ethic and maturity. Nowadays, these tests are also skewed by much higher percentage of immigrants in the demographic. ESL students will almost always perform misleadingly lower than ability. High scores on these tests do seem to tell us something; Low scores on these tests are not nearly as reliable. 2) By all normal predictive measures, including significantly lower SAT's, the students I teach (Educational Opportunity Program students)should underperform "regular admission" students, but for several years now, that has not been the case. Our most recent graduation audit puts our rates above seventy percent, a handful of points higher than the university as a whole. We compare very well with results for "Presidential Scholars". Our most recent graduating EOP group also had higher average G.P.A.'s. The reasons for this are numerous, but certainly one would be realistic assessment coupled with high expectations. We expect our students to do well, but we also do a great deal to get them up to speed. We also tell them from day one that we expect them to think about graduate degrees and professional careers, and many, lately more than half, do just that. Graduation rates in the program twenty-five years ago were around twenty-five percent. No doubt many thought it was a mistake to admit them, that these kinds of students are not capable. Locally, at least, we have turned that expectation around. 3) Even when average scores for a group are higher or lower than averages for other groups, that can not and should not be used as a predictor of how any one member of that group might perform. In other words, many African-Americans score very high on those tests. Many Caucasions score very low. Group identity, especially one as rough as "race", is not a particularly good predictor of ability or of individual success. 4) We all need to admit that some groups are underperforming in very painful ways. High school graduation rates in the inner cities are woefully low, something that should trouble all of us. We need to do a much better job of addressing that problem. Many of our schools are now more deeply segregated than they were in the 1950's, and we now have deep pockets of poverty in a relatively rich country. For years now, New York state has been defying court orders to equalize spending in its schools. (They might say "slowly complying".) Because we fund our schools largely through property taxes, wealthy districts have tended to have more money available for their schools, though poor districts have the greater need. This is a national issue, not a local one. 5) We need to think of all our citizens as important resources for the future of this country. And we will do a much better job of educating all those citizens if we approach the task with high expectations. In my program at least, I can say that high expectations have been highly realistic. 6) None of this means that we should conspire toward a lowering of standards. Standards mattter. I believe we should make standards far more explicit and that we should have programs in place to help all students along that path. To me, that means much more explicit understanding of what literacy entails, and a much more explicit mentoring into those literacy roles. If we want to be honest and not just politically correct, then let us celebrate success when we find it and be honest about our own deep failures. Craig Exchanges of points of view on this List can become quite complicated > given > the numerous participants and threads and sub-threads. It would, > therefore, > have been helpul had Johanna cited the actual text to which she was > replying > in her following response to me: > > 'It is really kind of useless to talk about "race" and IQ without > taking into consideration the nurture question...' > > May I also suggest in the politest way possible that Johanna and anyone > else > of likewise disposition resist the temptation to publicly comment on the > putatively incorrect language use of other members. If they cannot resist > that particular temptation, they can compromise by helpfully explaining > off-List to the offender where s/he is going wrong.. > > Ron Sheen > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/