Well, I think you have just illustrated why everybody hates English
teachers.  It's unbelievably rude to correct a fellow teacher in a
public place.  Another English teacher did that to me while we at a nice
restaurant.

The issue, as always, is how to help students be more effective language
users so they can use language for their own ends. This necessarily
requires pointing out ineffective usage and explaining why it is
ineffective.  It can be difficult to strike a balance between trying to
help them improve and being so critical they just give up.  I've been
teaching English at the college level for thirty years, and I am still
struggling with it.  One thing I always try to do is to share my own
excitement about language and its possibilities with my students.
Sometimes it helps.

Janet Castilleja
Heritage University

-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 6:30 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From the esoteric`to the exoteric was Re: Functional
grammar definition

Rob,
   I think one of your final sentences holds the key for me:
>
"But if we are to believe that we can foster an appreciation for
literature and composition, we should also believe that we can foster an
appreciation for language and how it works."

   When you talk about grammar throughout the post, you tend to think of
it in terms of motivation to avoid error. But the same love of language
that draws us to literature and writing ought to lead us to a deeper
sense of how meaning happens. When we revise for meaning, we are
altering the form of our sentences to better fit our evolving purposes.
When we look closely at word choices and word constructions in the
literature we love, we bring its deeper meanings to conscious light.
Grammar can be fundamentally interpretive.
   None of us likes to be embarassed, and we all probably have a few
embarassing moments of our own to reflect on. It's interesting that
being corrected took you out of the debate. The same thing happens to
our students when we "correct" their writing without paying much
respect at all to who they are (and can be) as people and as writers.
The reluctance to correct may come from that, but it's dangerous when
we don't bring any grammar at all, even the best of their sentences, to
light.

   In a funny way, I think those who know most about gramamr are least
inclined to reduce it to error.
   We make errors in "vocabulary" (I hate the connotations of that)but
we
try to enrich our students' stock (and love) of words to help them
become more adept as readers and writers. We never expect to motivate
them through embarassment.
   Grammar happens when there is no error. For many of us, it is a
meaning-making system.
   If you aiom at effectiveness, correctness can come along.

Craig


I don't know if this adds to or detracts from the current conversation,
> but
> Ronald's post with the twenty sentences has me thinking.  I am coming
to
> this conversation as a college "professor" who is trying to prepare
future
> teachers for the world in which they will work.  In the end, I have a
> relatively firm grasp on "teaching literature" and "teaching writing,"
but
> I
> am very uncomfortable with "teaching grammar" (and I recognize that
the
> word
> "grammar" here no longer cuts it).  And so I am very interested in all
> that
> is happening on this list.
>
>
>
> Right now, my thinking in this area is centered around two basic
concepts:
> knowledge and disposition (and I would like to apologize here for my
lack
> of
> field appropriate terminology).  We can debate the nature of the
knowledge
> of grammar (and not having formal training beyond my undergraduate
> linguistics requirements, my knowledge cannot approach the knowledge
of
> this
> list), but unless our students possess the appropriate disposition for
> learning "grammar," the knowledge we provide goes in one ear and out
the
> other (by the way, we like to assume that this problem rests alone
with
> grammar instruction when current reality tells us that a similar
problem
> exists with literature/reading instruction and writing instruction;
> reality
> also tells us that this problem exists within education in general
> crossing
> all disciplines).  Quite simply, we can teach very specific concepts
to
> our
> students, but unless they care to learn and use that knowledge, the
> methods
> we employ are ineffective or unsuccessful.  And so I can use a
sentence
> like
> (or any that Ronald posted):
>
>
>
> Everyone walked to their car after the game
>
>
>
> and I can point out the problem(s) with this sentence, and my students
can
> understand what I have told them, but they will continue writing and
> speaking with the same error.  It seems that only with an appropriate
> "critical experience" will they begin to dispositionally understand
the
> relevance of the concept and avoid committing the same error.
>
>
>
> Which brings me to a quick personal story.  I was raised by a mother
who,
> generally speaking, used the language correctly and appropriately (I
> understand the potential socio-political aspect of this, but that is
> another
> issue), and so I, generally speaking, used the language correctly and
> appropriately.  It wasn't until my second year of teaching High School
> English that, in my memory, I had my first real "critical experience."
In
> a
> faculty meeting I made a statement in defense of a certain policy (I
don't
> remember now the specific statement or the policy I was defending),
and an
> English colleague immediately responded by correcting the mechanical
> structure of my sentence (he did not address the policy... would this
be
> and
> ad grammarian fallacy?).  I was embarrassed.  From that moment I began
to
> consider what I said and how I said it.  The point here is that it was
> only
> after I began to dispositionally care about how others would respond
to my
> writing and speaking that I began to internalize the "descriptive"
rules
> of
> our language.  Once I cared, then this carried over into my speaking
and
> my
> writing.
>
>
>
> And so, it seems that we need to begin developing "critical
experiences"
> for
> our students in addition to philosophies, approaches, and methods for
> teaching grammar.  But, I would argue, we need to develop "critical
> experiences" that empower rather than disempower.  Although my
experience
> in
> that faculty meeting proved monumental and, in the end, helpful, I
chose
> not
> to speak further that day in the defense of the policy.  I was just
> embarrassed.
>
>
>
> On another note, it is nice and interesting to proclaim platitudes
like
> "devoting classroom time to the study of grammar does not influence
> student
> writing," but I believe that in the appropriate environment where
students
> dispostionally care about how they say or write something, they will
learn
> whatever we are teaching.  I understand and believe to an extent the
> concept
> of teaching grammar within the context of student writing.  But if we
are
> to
> believe that we can foster an appreciation for literature and
composition,
> we should also believe that we can foster an appreciation for language
and
> how it works. It seems that any breakdown in our philosophy of
teaching
> grammar might also reveal a breakdown in our philosophies of teaching
> literature and writing.
>
>
>
> Rob
>
>
>
> ___________________
>
>    Robert Lockhart
>
>
>
>  Assistant Professor, English Education
>
>          Curriculum and Instruction
>
>                A301D Ginger Hall
>
>           Morehead State University
>
>          Morehead, Kentucky  40351
>
>               Office: 606.783.2834
>
>                 Fax: 606.783.5044
>
>    <http://people.moreheadstate.edu/fs/r.lockhart/>
> http://people.moreheadstate.edu/fs/r.lockhart/
>
> ___________________
>
>
>
>
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