Bill, Thanks for the clarification. What happened in the 60s is widely misunderstood, both by those who oppose it and by those who agree with it. Herb -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of William McCleary Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 7:16 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The lessons of recent pedagogical history was Rules Herb, I just want to clarify for you what was actually said about the effect of grammar on the teaching of writing. Here is the much misinterpreted statement from Research in Writing Composition by Braddock, Lloyd-Jones and Schoer (NCTE, 1963): In view of the widespread agreement of research studies based upon many types of students and teachers, the conclusion can be stated in strong and unqualified terms: the teaching of formal grammar has a negligible or, because it usually displaces some instruction and practice in actual composition, even a harmful effect on the improvement of writing. Some people seem to read right over the clause after "or." And I can testify from personal experience that the teacher of grammar did displace the teaching of composition. (I started teaching English in 1961) Indeed, at the time we considered the teaching of grammar to be a significant part of teaching composition. We thought that students couldn't understand and correct their errors unless they first learned enough about grammar for us to explain the errors to them. Unfortunately, a lot of teachers spent so much time on grammar that they never got around to teaching composition. It is, after all, a lot easier to correct a grammar quiz than a composition. I am sorry that so many people interpreted this conclusion by Braddock et al. to mean that grammar shouldn't be taught at all, but if one has to make a choice between grammar and composition, I'd rather see composition be the choice. I'd rather see both included, but that just leads to making of choice of which approach to grammar would be most teachable and most useful. I'm afraid that what we taught in the early sixties was neither teachable or useful for the majority of students. I'm happy to see that you are currently addressing that issue. Bill On Oct 13, 2007, at 4:15 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote: > Ron, > > What you describe in the ESL context in Quebec and Bangalore is the > heart of what motivated the founders of ATEG, the theoretical claims > in the fifties and sixties that the teaching of grammar not only did > not help student writers improve their writing but actually detracted > from it. Composition writers argued that the teaching of grammar was > harmful to the teaching of writing. NCTE adopted this finding and the > training of teachers in grammar, the place of grammar in K12 language > arts curricula, and, of course, the place of grammar in the writing > class all diminished sharply. > > Herb > > > Bruce raises an interesting issue which all teachers have to confront > from > time to time. That is the implementation of an innovation which they > are > not necessarily equipped to handle and which they find implicitly > entails > their rejecting their own teaching prinicples. This happened in ESL in > Quebec and Bangalore, India in the 80s where teachers were forbidden to > teach grammar when an extreme form of communicative language teaching > was > introduced which, by the way, ultimately failed. > > I wonder whether any members have had experience of this in teaching > English > as a first language. > > Interestingly, in the cases mentioned in the first pargraph, as > teachers > increasingly lost faith in the innovation, they returned > surreptitiously to > their own teaching principles. > > Ron Sheen > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > Bill McCleary Livonia, NY To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/