Received: from leordinateur ([70.119.62.89]) by cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com
with ESMTP
id <20080113170620.SSGX29372.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@leordinateur>
for <[log in to unmask]>; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:06:20 +0000
From: "Scott" <[log in to unmask]>
To: "'Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar'" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: ATEG Digest - 10 Jan 2008 to 11 Jan 2008 (#2008-4)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:06:14 -0500
Message-ID: <001f01c85606$9ac20c20$6401a8c0@leordinateur>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11
Thread-Index: AchU2FlsuZYoUPh9QL+OuJpn1PyL3wBK+WMQ
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
It's true that fiction narrated in the first person is
the most common source of punctuation omission--unless,
of course, you are Victor Borge. In teaching classes
and in giving workshops to teachers, I often include
the perhaps apocryphal ad,
"Wanted: a personal secretary. Must not be a salt-celler
dispenser of commas."
to demonstrate that unnecessary commas are as just as
unacceptable as the unnecessary omission of commas.
Correctness in English derives from a historical accretion
of cultural practices that have gained acceptance among
the educated class. In France and Spain, correctness is
determined by academies who put forth what their members
consider to be correct French or Spanish. I'll go for
the accretion--saves problems when those in power wish
to change English--the NCTE has fought to abolish the
serial comma for a half-century. So far they have not
succeeded (Thank Heaven!).
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 12:02 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 10 Jan 2008 to 11 Jan 2008 (#2008-4)
There are 10 messages totalling 2636 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Commas in compound sentences (10)
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:18:30 -0800
From: Cynthia Baird <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
--0-709622207-1200032310=:83114
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hey, Herb! I have not responded to the ATEG list for quite some time
because I have been busy with a new teaching position. I really miss
reading and responding to everyone's posts.
However, I noticed this post because it relates to much of what a high
school English teacher does--instruct in correct punctuation of sentences to
achieve clear communication.
Herb, are you suggesting that we (high school teachers) not correct a
sentence that really contains a comma splice? Although I agree with you that
the writer has expressed him or herself in your example sentence, I think
that the writer could easily be instructed how to separate these clauses
without interfering with his or her expression. Is it wrong to instruct
writers to consider the reader's confusion and to punctuate and add
conjunctions in such a way to eliminate reader confusion? Isn't that the
basis of punctuation, anyway? Certainly many commas are unnecessary because
no reader confusion exists, but to allow writers to carry on without regard
to punctuation, coordination, or subordination seems to me to condone their
confused writing. I teach students to always keep in mind their readers or
listeners. Do I dare tell students that punctuation is arbitrary?
as always, thanks to all of you who post and respond!
"STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on this question. The
problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the perspective of
teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on any consistent
theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion of cultural
practices that have gained varying degrees of acceptance in different
parts of the world and of English speaking cultures. Run-on sentences
and comma splices frequently represent cases where the spoken language
expresses relationships between clauses that the written language, with,
for example, its lack of intonation and stress contrast, cannot
distinguish. Turabian correctly recognizes that not all coordinate
clauses are the same and that punctuation practice can vary. Compare
the following sentences:
1. Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache.
2. Harry ate five green apples, and he got a stomach ache.
In (1) there is clearly a connection between the two events, the first
preceding and causing the second. (2), on the other hand, suggests that
both things took place but that we should not assume a relationship
between them. In speech, this contrast would be distinguished by a
slight intonational rise on "apples" in (1) and falling intonation on
"apples" in (2).
This sense that the two clauses are related in ways that go beyond both
simply being asserted is at the basis of a lot of the run-ons I've seen.
Comma splices tend to be a more complicated problem, partly because
there are more grammatical factors to consider: presence or absence of
a conjunctive adverb, intonation contour, presence or absence of a
coordinating conjunction, use of a semi-colon or a comma, clausal vs.
phrasal status of the second element, etc. It's easy to state a rule
that two clauses are separated by a comma only if the second begins with
a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one of four methods must be used:
(a) put a period after the first and capitalize the first letter of the
second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use a semi-colon and a conjunctive
adverb, (d) put a period after the first and capitalize the conjunctive
adverb (some editors reject this option).
In (3), any of the standard options would work:
3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has seen a lot of accidents; therefore,
the city council ordered four-way stop signs installed.
However, in (4) the semantic relationship between the two clauses is
close enough that a writer may not want the force of the semi-colon and
may sense that a comma fits the relationship better:
4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach ache.
Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this is a
deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability. I would
certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career decisions are
to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many comma
splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say something
that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to allow.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
My observations:
1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but not
exclusively, in fiction.
2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for short,
closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under that
exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of commas
was meant to convey a more conversational tone.
3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that require
students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as to why it
can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear to avoid
clauses that might fall under the short & related exception.
I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule at first,
perhaps not until high school. Give them some time to get an intuitive
feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of clauses.
Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense.
Michael Kischner wrote:
> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma
before
> a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and
omitting
> the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly
fiction
> books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it
is
> certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels
to use
> the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print.
>
> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for
> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before
each
> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book,
*Clarice
> Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like
this:
> "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much
anymore
> and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly
> mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up
> sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play
soccer,
> but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."
>
> I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest
place to
> find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't
searched
> methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both
> fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
>
> I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become
one of
> those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to
in
> order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until
they're
> ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are
effective
> or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a
better
> rule.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
now.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-709622207-1200032310=:83114
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
<div>Hey, Herb! I have not responded to the ATEG list for quite some
time because I have been busy with a new teaching position. I really
miss reading and responding to everyone's posts.</div> <div> </div>
<div>However, I noticed this post because it relates to much of what a high
school English teacher does--instruct in correct punctuation of sentences to
achieve clear communication.</div> <div> </div> <div>Herb, are you
suggesting that we (high school teachers) not correct a sentence that really
contains a comma splice? Although I agree with you that the writer has
expressed him or herself in your example sentence, I think that the writer
could easily be instructed how to separate these clauses without interfering
with his or her expression. Is it wrong to instruct writers to
consider the reader's confusion and to punctuate and add conjunctions in
such a way to eliminate reader confusion? Isn't that the basis of
punctuation,
anyway? Certainly many commas are unnecessary because no reader
confusion exists, but to allow writers to carry on without regard to
punctuation, coordination, or subordination seems to me to condone their
confused writing. I teach students to always keep in mind their readers or
listeners. Do I dare tell students that punctuation is
arbitrary?</div> <div> </div> <div>as always, thanks to all of you
who post and respond!</div> <div> </div> <div><BR><BR><B><I>"STAHLKE,
HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:</div> <BLOCKQUOTE
class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#1010ff 2px solid">Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on this
question. The<BR>problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the
perspective of<BR>teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on
any consistent<BR>theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion
of cultural<BR>practices that have gained varying
degrees of acceptance in different<BR>parts of the world and of English
speaking cultures. Run-on sentences<BR>and comma splices frequently
represent cases where the spoken language<BR>expresses relationships between
clauses that the written language, with,<BR>for example, its lack of
intonation and stress contrast, cannot<BR>distinguish. Turabian correctly
recognizes that not all coordinate<BR>clauses are the same and that
punctuation practice can vary. Compare<BR>the following sentences:<BR><BR>1.
Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache.<BR>2. Harry ate five
green apples, and he got a stomach ache.<BR><BR>In (1) there is clearly a
connection between the two events, the first<BR>preceding and causing the
second. (2), on the other hand, suggests that<BR>both things took place but
that we should not assume a relationship<BR>between them. In speech, this
contrast would be distinguished by a<BR>slight intonational rise on "apples"
in (1) and falling intonation
on<BR>"apples" in (2).<BR><BR>This sense that the two clauses are related
in ways that go beyond both<BR>simply being asserted is at the basis of a
lot of the run-ons I've seen.<BR><BR>Comma splices tend to be a more
complicated problem, partly because<BR>there are more grammatical factors to
consider: presence or absence of<BR>a conjunctive adverb, intonation
contour, presence or absence of a<BR>coordinating conjunction, use of a
semi-colon or a comma, clausal vs.<BR>phrasal status of the second element,
etc. It's easy to state a rule<BR>that two clauses are separated by a comma
only if the second begins with<BR>a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one
of four methods must be used:<BR>(a) put a period after the first and
capitalize the first letter of the<BR>second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use
a semi-colon and a conjunctive<BR>adverb, (d) put a period after the first
and capitalize the conjunctive<BR>adverb (some editors reject this
option).<BR><BR>In (3), any of the
standard options would work:<BR><BR>3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has
seen a lot of accidents; therefore,<BR>the city council ordered four-way
stop signs installed.<BR><BR>However, in (4) the semantic relationship
between the two clauses is<BR>close enough that a writer may not want the
force of the semi-colon and<BR>may sense that a comma fits the relationship
better:<BR><BR>4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach
ache.<BR><BR>Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this
is a<BR>deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability. I
would<BR>certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career decisions
are<BR>to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many
comma<BR>splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say
something<BR>that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to
allow.<BR><BR>Herb<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Assembly for
the Teaching of English
Grammar<BR>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl
Hagen<BR>Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM<BR>To:
[log in to unmask]<BR>Subject: Re: Commas in compound
sentences<BR><BR>My observations:<BR><BR>1. You're right that the rule is
often ignored, especially but not<BR>exclusively, in fiction.<BR><BR>2. Some
style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for short,<BR>closely
related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under that<BR>exception,
although you could just as well say that the lack of commas<BR>was meant to
convey a more conversational tone.<BR><BR>3. The big standardized tests
(SAT, ACT) contain questions that require<BR>students to apply this rule, so
there are practical reasons as to why it<BR>can't just be jettisoned. From
what I've observed, they appear to avoid<BR>clauses that might fall under
the short & related exception.<BR><BR>I do think, though, that younger
students don't need this rule at first,<BR>perhaps not
until high school. Give them some time to get an intuitive<BR>feel for
sentence combining and to build up an understanding of clauses.<BR>Only
after that will the punctuation rules make much sense.<BR><BR>Michael
Kischner wrote:<BR>> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching
that placing a comma<BR>before<BR>> a coordinating conjunction in a
compound sentence is the rule and<BR>omitting<BR>> the comma is the
exception? I have been reading through mostly<BR>fiction<BR>> books for
elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it<BR>is<BR>>
certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels<BR>to
use<BR>> the comma, we are up against most of what they see in
print.<BR>> <BR>> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use
in a workshop for<BR>> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted
the comma before<BR>each<BR>> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most
of a delightful book,<BR>*Clarice<BR>>
Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences
like<BR>this:<BR>> "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use
them that much<BR>anymore<BR>> and he hasn't let the dog see them, which
is why Cement is utterly<BR>> mannerless." This morning, when I returned
to my carefully made-up<BR>> sentences, the commas looked like clutter:
"Matthew wanted to play<BR>soccer,<BR>> but the doctor said he should
rest his injured leg."<BR>> <BR>> I know that fiction narrated in the
first person is the likeliest<BR>place to<BR>> find compound sentences
without commas. But, though I haven't<BR>searched<BR>> methodically, I
think I have noticed them all over the place, in both<BR>> fiction and
nonfiction for both younger and older readers.<BR>> <BR>> I wonder
whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become<BR>one of<BR>>
those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort
to<BR>in<BR>> order to give
learners something clear and secure to grasp until<BR>they're<BR>> ready
for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications
are<BR>effective<BR>> or justified is a whole other question. What I
think I'd prefer is a<BR>better<BR>> rule.<BR>> <BR>> To join or
leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<BR>interface
at:<BR>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>> and select
"Join or leave the list"<BR>> <BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/<BR>> <BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
visit the list's web<BR>interface
at:<BR>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>and select "Join or
leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>To
join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:<BR>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>and select "Join or
leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p> 
<hr size=1>Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. <a
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i
62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ "> Try it now.</a>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-709622207-1200032310=:83114--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:47:32 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
Herb,
I like your post and would like to emphasize a point you may only be
implying--that a great deal of our frustration comes from a lack of
understanding of how the intonation system works. I'm reading Jane
Maher's biography of Mina Shaughnessy, so Shaughnessy's ghost may be
speaking here as well--our students are often making sensible errors,
and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That
also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they
are bringing into play. >
I would like to see the term "correct" used a lot less and replaced by
"standard" or "conventional". Our students own their own writing, or
ought to; every study seems to show the importance of that. I believe
my job is to help students be aware of conventions and standards, and
that means being honest about the arbitrary nature of some aspects of
all that. Conventions are made to be broken, but there is much to lose
when they are not understood or simply ignored. When they come to me in
college, most students don't have the base of understanding they need
to have a useful conversation about the pattens in their own writing.
The chances are pretty close to 100% that no one has talked to them
about intonation.
The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.
Writing effectively means working creatively with standard practices
(and expectations), but simply following them is never enough.
Somehow, the conversation needs to bring in the larger purposes of the
text ands the different "systems" in place to help move those purposes
along.
Intonation should be a much larger part of the ocnversation.
Craig
Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on this question. The
> problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the perspective of
> teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on any consistent
> theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion of cultural
> practices that have gained varying degrees of acceptance in different
> parts of the world and of English speaking cultures. Run-on sentences
> and comma splices frequently represent cases where the spoken language
> expresses relationships between clauses that the written language, with,
> for example, its lack of intonation and stress contrast, cannot
> distinguish. Turabian correctly recognizes that not all coordinate
> clauses are the same and that punctuation practice can vary. Compare
> the following sentences:
>
> 1. Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache.
> 2. Harry ate five green apples, and he got a stomach ache.
>
> In (1) there is clearly a connection between the two events, the first
> preceding and causing the second. (2), on the other hand, suggests that
> both things took place but that we should not assume a relationship
> between them. In speech, this contrast would be distinguished by a
> slight intonational rise on "apples" in (1) and falling intonation on
> "apples" in (2).
>
> This sense that the two clauses are related in ways that go beyond both
> simply being asserted is at the basis of a lot of the run-ons I've seen.
>
> Comma splices tend to be a more complicated problem, partly because
> there are more grammatical factors to consider: presence or absence of
> a conjunctive adverb, intonation contour, presence or absence of a
> coordinating conjunction, use of a semi-colon or a comma, clausal vs.
> phrasal status of the second element, etc. It's easy to state a rule
> that two clauses are separated by a comma only if the second begins with
> a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one of four methods must be used:
> (a) put a period after the first and capitalize the first letter of the
> second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use a semi-colon and a conjunctive
> adverb, (d) put a period after the first and capitalize the conjunctive
> adverb (some editors reject this option).
>
> In (3), any of the standard options would work:
>
> 3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has seen a lot of accidents; therefore,
> the city council ordered four-way stop signs installed.
>
> However, in (4) the semantic relationship between the two clauses is
> close enough that a writer may not want the force of the semi-colon and
> may sense that a comma fits the relationship better:
>
> 4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach ache.
>
> Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this is a
> deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability. I would
> certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career decisions are
> to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many comma
> splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say something
> that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to allow.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
>
> My observations:
>
> 1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but not
> exclusively, in fiction.
>
> 2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for short,
> closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under that
> exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of commas
> was meant to convey a more conversational tone.
>
> 3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that require
> students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as to why it
> can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear to avoid
> clauses that might fall under the short & related exception.
>
> I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule at first,
> perhaps not until high school. Give them some time to get an intuitive
> feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of clauses.
> Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense.
>
> Michael Kischner wrote:
>> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma
> before
>> a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and
> omitting
>> the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly
> fiction
>> books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it
> is
>> certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels
> to use
>> the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print.
>>
>> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for
>> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before
> each
>> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book,
> *Clarice
>> Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like
> this:
>> "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much
> anymore
>> and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly
>> mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up
>> sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play
> soccer,
>> but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."
>>
>> I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest
> place to
>> find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't
> searched
>> methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both
>> fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
>>
>> I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become
> one of
>> those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to
> in
>> order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until
> they're
>> ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are
> effective
>> or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a
> better
>> rule.
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:41:25 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C85468.74E888C9
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Cynthia,
=20
I certainly would not recommend ignoring comma splices in your students'
writing. Rather, and you hint at this, I'd take them as symptomatic of
a more pervasive problem in the student's ability to convert from spoken
to written language. Relationships that written language doesn't have
systematic ways of expressing, as intonation does in speech, which is,
of course, basic, have to be expressed in other ways. I suspect that a
lot of comma splices aren't simply mistakes; they're attempts to express
meanings that go beyond the writer's ability to manipulate written
English. Plenty of teaching opportunities there. I suspect that if
comma splices were approached in this way in teaching, students would
see that they aren't simply some arbitrary mistake they keep making but
rather are a limitation placed by the conventions of writing that they
have to learn to work around.
=20
And what's wrong with telling students that a lot conventions they must
observe are arbitrary?
=20
Keep in mind that I taught college English, not high school, so I'm not
exactly a serious source on high school pedagogy.
=20
All the best!
=20
Herb
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cynthia Baird
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 1:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
=20
Hey, Herb! I have not responded to the ATEG list for quite some time
because I have been busy with a new teaching position. I really miss
reading and responding to everyone's posts.
=20
However, I noticed this post because it relates to much of what a high
school English teacher does--instruct in correct punctuation of
sentences to achieve clear communication.
=20
Herb, are you suggesting that we (high school teachers) not correct a
sentence that really contains a comma splice? Although I agree with you
that the writer has expressed him or herself in your example sentence, I
think that the writer could easily be instructed how to separate these
clauses without interfering with his or her expression. Is it wrong to
instruct writers to consider the reader's confusion and to punctuate and
add conjunctions in such a way to eliminate reader confusion? Isn't
that the basis of punctuation, anyway? Certainly many commas are
unnecessary because no reader confusion exists, but to allow writers to
carry on without regard to punctuation, coordination, or subordination
seems to me to condone their confused writing. I teach students to
always keep in mind their readers or listeners. Do I dare tell students
that punctuation is arbitrary?
=20
as always, thanks to all of you who post and respond!
=20
"STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on this question.
The
problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the
perspective of
teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on any
consistent
theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion of
cultural
practices that have gained varying degrees of acceptance in
different
parts of the world and of English speaking cultures. Run-on
sentences
and comma splices frequently represent cases where the spoken
language
expresses relationships between clauses that the written
language, with,
for example, its lack of intonation and stress contrast, cannot
distinguish. Turabian correctly recognizes that not all
coordinate
clauses are the same and that punctuation practice can vary.
Compare
the following sentences:
=09
1. Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache.
2. Harry ate five green apples, and he got a stomach ache.
=09
In (1) there is clearly a connection between the two events, the
first
preceding and causing the second. (2), on the other hand,
suggests that
both things took place but that we should not assume a
relationship
between them. In speech, this contrast would be distinguished by
a
slight intonational rise on "apples" in (1) and falling
intonation on
"apples" in (2).
=09
This sense that the two clauses are related in ways that go
beyond both
simply being asserted is at the basis of a lot of the run-ons
I've seen.
=09
Comma splices tend to be a more complicated problem, partly
because
there are more grammatical factors to consider: presence or
absence of
a conjunctive adverb, intonation contour, presence or absence of
a
coordinating conjunction, use of a semi-colon or a comma,
clausal vs.
phrasal status of the second element, etc. It's easy to state a
rule
that two clauses are separated by a comma only if the second
begins with
a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one of four methods must
be used:
(a) put a period after the first and capitalize the first letter
of the
second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use a semi-colon and a
conjunctive
adverb, (d) put a period after the first and capitalize the
conjunctive
adverb (some editors reject this option).
=09
In (3), any of the standard options would work:
=09
3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has seen a lot of accidents;
therefore,
the city council ordered four-way stop signs installed.
=09
However, in (4) the semantic relationship between the two
clauses is
close enough that a writer may not want the force of the
semi-colon and
may sense that a comma fits the relationship better:
=09
4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach ache.
=09
Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this
is a
deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability.
I would
certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career
decisions are
to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many
comma
splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say
something
that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to
allow.
=09
Herb
=09
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
=09
My observations:
=09
1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but
not
exclusively, in fiction.
=09
2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for
short,
closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under
that
exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of
commas
was meant to convey a more conversational tone.
=09
3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that
require
students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as
to why it
can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear
to avoid
clauses that might fall under the short & related exception.
=09
I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule
at first,
perhaps not until high school. Give them some time to get an
intuitive
feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of
clauses.
Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense.
=09
Michael Kischner wrote:
> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing
a comma
before
> a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule
and
omitting
> the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly
fiction
> books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those
books it
is
> certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those
levels
to use
> the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print.
>=20
> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a
workshop for
> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma
before
each
> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful
book,
*Clarice
> Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences
like
this:
> "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that
much
anymore
> and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is
utterly
> mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully
made-up
> sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to
play
soccer,
> but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."
>=20
> I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the
likeliest
place to
> find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't
searched
> methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place,
in both
> fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
>=20
> I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has
become
one of
> those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes
resort to
in
> order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp
until
they're
> ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications
are
effective
> or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd
prefer is a
better
> rule.
>=20
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>=20
=09
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
=09
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=09
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
=09
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=20
=20
________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
it now.
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3DAhu06=
i62
sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C85468.74E888C9
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" =
xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>
<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Cynthia,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I certainly would not recommend ignoring comma splices in =
your
students’ writing. Rather, and you hint at this, I’d =
take
them as symptomatic of a more pervasive problem in the student’s =
ability
to convert from spoken to written language. Relationships that =
written
language doesn’t have systematic ways of expressing, as intonation =
does
in speech, which is, of course, basic, have to be expressed in other
ways. I suspect that a lot of comma splices aren’t simply =
mistakes;
they’re attempts to express meanings that go beyond the =
writer’s
ability to manipulate written English. Plenty of teaching =
opportunities
there. I suspect that if comma splices were approached in this way =
in
teaching, students would see that they aren’t simply some =
arbitrary
mistake they keep making but rather are a limitation placed by the =
conventions
of writing that they have to learn to work around.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>And what’s wrong with telling students that a lot
conventions they must observe are arbitrary?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Keep in mind that I taught college English, not high =
school, so
I’m not exactly a serious source on high school =
pedagogy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>All the best!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly =
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Cynthia
Baird<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 11, 2008 1:19 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Commas in compound sentences<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Hey, Herb! I have not responded to the ATEG =
list for
quite some time because I have been busy with a new teaching =
position. I
really miss reading and responding to everyone's posts.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>However, I noticed this post because it relates to =
much of
what a high school English teacher does--instruct in correct punctuation =
of
sentences to achieve clear communication.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Herb, are you suggesting that we (high school =
teachers) not
correct a sentence that really contains a comma splice? Although I agree =
with
you that the writer has expressed him or herself in your example =
sentence, I
think that the writer could easily be instructed how to separate these =
clauses
without interfering with his or her expression. Is it wrong to =
instruct
writers to consider the reader's confusion and to punctuate and add
conjunctions in such a way to eliminate reader confusion? Isn't =
that the
basis of punctuation, anyway? Certainly many commas are unnecessary
because no reader confusion exists, but to allow writers to carry on =
without
regard to punctuation, coordination, or subordination seems to me to =
condone
their confused writing. I teach students to always keep in mind their =
readers
or listeners. Do I dare tell students that punctuation is =
arbitrary?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>as always, thanks to all of you who post and =
respond!<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
<br>
<b><i>"STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]></i></b> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF =
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on =
this
question. The<br>
problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the perspective =
of<br>
teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on any =
consistent<br>
theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion of =
cultural<br>
practices that have gained varying degrees of acceptance in =
different<br>
parts of the world and of English speaking cultures. Run-on =
sentences<br>
and comma splices frequently represent cases where the spoken =
language<br>
expresses relationships between clauses that the written language, =
with,<br>
for example, its lack of intonation and stress contrast, cannot<br>
distinguish. Turabian correctly recognizes that not all coordinate<br>
clauses are the same and that punctuation practice can vary. Compare<br>
the following sentences:<br>
<br>
1. Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache.<br>
2. Harry ate five green apples, and he got a stomach ache.<br>
<br>
In (1) there is clearly a connection between the two events, the =
first<br>
preceding and causing the second. (2), on the other hand, suggests =
that<br>
both things took place but that we should not assume a relationship<br>
between them. In speech, this contrast would be distinguished by a<br>
slight intonational rise on "apples" in (1) and falling =
intonation on<br>
"apples" in (2).<br>
<br>
This sense that the two clauses are related in ways that go beyond =
both<br>
simply being asserted is at the basis of a lot of the run-ons I've =
seen.<br>
<br>
Comma splices tend to be a more complicated problem, partly because<br>
there are more grammatical factors to consider: presence or absence =
of<br>
a conjunctive adverb, intonation contour, presence or absence of a<br>
coordinating conjunction, use of a semi-colon or a comma, clausal =
vs.<br>
phrasal status of the second element, etc. It's easy to state a rule<br>
that two clauses are separated by a comma only if the second begins =
with<br>
a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one of four methods must be =
used:<br>
(a) put a period after the first and capitalize the first letter of =
the<br>
second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use a semi-colon and a conjunctive<br>
adverb, (d) put a period after the first and capitalize the =
conjunctive<br>
adverb (some editors reject this option).<br>
<br>
In (3), any of the standard options would work:<br>
<br>
3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has seen a lot of accidents; =
therefore,<br>
the city council ordered four-way stop signs installed.<br>
<br>
However, in (4) the semantic relationship between the two clauses is<br>
close enough that a writer may not want the force of the semi-colon =
and<br>
may sense that a comma fits the relationship better:<br>
<br>
4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach ache.<br>
<br>
Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this is a<br>
deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability. I =
would<br>
certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career decisions =
are<br>
to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many =
comma<br>
splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say something<br>
that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to =
allow.<br>
<br>
Herb<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br>
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen<br>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM<br>
To: [log in to unmask]<br>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences<br>
<br>
My observations:<br>
<br>
1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but not<br>
exclusively, in fiction.<br>
<br>
2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for short,<br>
closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under =
that<br>
exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of =
commas<br>
was meant to convey a more conversational tone.<br>
<br>
3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that =
require<br>
students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as to why =
it<br>
can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear to =
avoid<br>
clauses that might fall under the short & related exception.<br>
<br>
I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule at =
first,<br>
perhaps not until high school. Give them some time to get an =
intuitive<br>
feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of =
clauses.<br>
Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense.<br>
<br>
Michael Kischner wrote:<br>
> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a =
comma<br>
before<br>
> a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule =
and<br>
omitting<br>
> the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly<br>
fiction<br>
> books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books =
it<br>
is<br>
> certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those =
levels<br>
to use<br>
> the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print.<br>
> <br>
> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop =
for<br>
> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma =
before<br>
each<br>
> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful =
book,<br>
*Clarice<br>
> Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences =
like<br>
this:<br>
> "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that =
much<br>
anymore<br>
> and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is =
utterly<br>
> mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully =
made-up<br>
> sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to =
play<br>
soccer,<br>
> but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."<br>
> <br>
> I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the =
likeliest<br>
place to<br>
> find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't<br>
searched<br>
> methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in =
both<br>
> fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.<br>
> <br>
> I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" =
has
become<br>
one of<br>
> those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort =
to<br>
in<br>
> order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp =
until<br>
they're<br>
> ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are<br>
effective<br>
> or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is =
a<br>
better<br>
> rule.<br>
> <br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's =
web<br>
interface at:<br>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
> <br>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<br>
> <br>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<br>
interface at:<br>
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
<br>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<br>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:<br>
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
<br>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'>
<hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with =
Yahoo!
Mobile. <a
href=3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3D=
Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20">Try
it now.</a> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's =
web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C85468.74E888C9--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:59:34 -0600
From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel and I have been doing over =
the past ten years might turn out to be valuable.
>>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>>
. . . our students are often making sensible errors,
and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That
also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they
are bringing into play. =20
*************
If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying systems of =
the language" that students bring to their writing, you might want to =
consult the following paper:
Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on the =
relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, 22, =
35-49.
We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that paper, we try =
to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the language" leads =
to error corrections that will not help such students improve.
Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level errors. =
Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47.
At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of =
non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native and =
non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like structures (we =
don't like the term "error" either) are principled.
Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention of the =
list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read it. =20
There is something right about the following by Craig:
The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.
Of course, in most of the reading our students do, they rarely see such =
punctuation. This raises a question about where these non-standard =
practices come from. =20
A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is based only =
on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions based on the =
frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem accounting =
for these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if language is a =
series of constructions, why are students punctuation practices so deviant =
from most of the input they have received? =20
In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those principles=
might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. This is =
interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is most =
insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguistics. =
Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind. It is =
puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying system of =
language our students bring to writing but he has a commitment to a view =
of language that cannot address what those underlying principles are. =20
To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts to =
explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's supposition =
above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know.
Bob Yates
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:24:09 -0500
From: Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
------=_Part_1723_5655121.1200075849495
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
I like Craig's observation:
"The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity."
When I taught the semi-colon as a way to fix these comma splices, I proposed
it as a three-quarter pause (with the comma being a half pause and thus a
little too wimpy for the situation and the period being a full pause).
Rather than telling kids all the time that they were wrong, I would
compliment them on their impulse to put the two sentences together, for they
were sensing the closer connection. I would tell them that the instinct
showed their growing sophistication about rhythms and relationships in their
writing. The only problem was that they were sending the boy (half-pause
comma) to do the man's job (three-quarter pause semi-colon.) I will say
that this made a big difference in the frequency of comma splices and in the
proper use of the semi-colon. Students felt good about themselves as
writers rather than put down. Sometimes when a student would go overboard
with too many semi-colons, we could then talk about just how close two
statements were. Did they warrant the three-quarter pause or did they need
their own separate spaces? And then we could go on to explore other ways of
achieving sentence variety...
Jane Saral
Atlanta
On Jan 11, 2008 10:59 AM, Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel and I have been doing over
> the past ten years might turn out to be valuable.
>
> >>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>>
> . . . our students are often making sensible errors,
> and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That
> also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they
> are bringing into play.
>
> *************
> If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying systems of
> the language" that students bring to their writing, you might want to
> consult the following paper:
>
> Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on the
> relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, 22,
35-49.
>
> We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that paper, we try
> to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the language" leads
to
> error corrections that will not help such students improve.
>
> Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level errors.
> Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47.
>
> At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of
> non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native and
> non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like structures (we
> don't like the term "error" either) are principled.
>
> Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention of the
> list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read it.
>
> There is something right about the following by Craig:
>
> The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
> experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
> in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
> love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
> would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
> idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
> half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.
>
> Of course, in most of the reading our students do, they rarely see such
> punctuation. This raises a question about where these non-standard
> practices come from.
>
> A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is based only
> on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions based on the
> frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem accounting
for
> these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if language is a
> series of constructions, why are students punctuation practices so deviant
> from most of the input they have received?
>
> In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those
> principles might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. This
is
> interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is most
> insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguistics.
> Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind. It is
> puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying system of
> language our students bring to writing but he has a commitment to a view
of
> language that cannot address what those underlying principles are.
>
> To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts to
> explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's supposition
> above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know.
>
> Bob Yates
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_Part_1723_5655121.1200075849495
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline
<div>I like Craig's observation:</div>
<div>"The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my<=
br>experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first<br=
>in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
<br>love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern=
, which I<br>would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but onl=
y one<br>idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, =
maybe a
<br>half dozen or so in fairly close proximity."</div>
<div> </div>
<div>When I taught the semi-colon as a way to fix these comma splices, I pr=
oposed it as a three-quarter pause (with the comma being a half pause and t=
hus a little too wimpy for the situation and the period being a full pause)=
. Rather than telling kids all the time that they were wrong, I =
would compliment them on their impulse to put the two sentences together, f=
or they were sensing the closer connection. I would tell them th=
at the instinct showed their growing sophistication about rhythms and =
relationships in their writing. The only problem was that they were s=
ending the boy (half-pause comma) to do the man's job (three-quarter pa=
use semi-colon.) I will say that this made a big difference in the fr=
equency of comma splices and in the proper use of the semi-colon. &nbs=
p;Students felt good about themselves as writers rather than put down. Some=
times when a student would go overboard with too many semi-colons, we could=
then talk about just how close two statements were. Did they warrant =
the three-quarter pause or did they need their own separate spaces?&nb=
sp; And then we could go on to explore other ways of achieving sentence var=
iety...
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Jane Saral</div>
<div>Atlanta</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>On Jan 11, 2008 10:59 AM, Robert Yates <<a href=3D"mailto:ryates@uc=
mo.edu">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:<br></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">It is nice to know that work tha=
t Jim Kenkel and I have been doing over the past ten years might turn=
out to be valuable.
<br><br>>>> Craig Hancock <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
">[log in to unmask]</a>> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>><br> . . . o=
ur students are often making sensible errors,<br>
<div class=3D"Ih2E3d">and it's hard to "correct" them if we d=
on't respect their mindset. That<br>also means respecting the underlyin=
g systems of the language that they<br>are bringing into play.<br><br></div=
>
*************<br>If you are interested in one proposal on what these "=
underlying systems of the language" that students bring to their writi=
ng, you might want to consult the following paper:<br><br>Kenkel, J. & =
Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on the relationship bet=
ween grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, 22, 35-49.
<br><br>We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that pap=
er, we try to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the l=
anguage" leads to error corrections that will not help such students i=
mprove.
<br><br>Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level erro=
rs. Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47.<br><br>At the mome=
nt, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of non-target-like stru=
ctures in ninety essays written by both native and non-native speakers. &nb=
sp;We suggest that these non-target-like structures (we don't like the =
term "error" either) are principled.
<br><br>Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention =
of the list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read=
it.<br><br>There is something right about the following by Craig:<br>
<div class=3D"Ih2E3d"><br> The most common run-on sentence, usually a=
commas splice, in my<br>experience, is the one in which the second clause =
reasserts the first<br>in some way, as in "My father was a popular man=
, everyone seemed to
<br>love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern=
, which I<br>would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but onl=
y one<br>idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, =
maybe a
<br>half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.<br><br></div>Of course, in =
most of the reading our students do, they rarely see such punctuation. &nbs=
p;This raises a question about where these non-standard practices come from=
.
<br><br>A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language i=
s based only on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions =
based on the frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem a=
ccounting for these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if=
language is a series of constructions, why are students punctuation practi=
ces so deviant from most of the input they have received?
<br><br>In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those pr=
inciples might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. &=
nbsp; This is interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims =
is most insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguist=
ics. Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind.=
It is puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying=
system of language our students bring to writing but he has a commitment t=
o a view of language that cannot address what those underlying principles a=
re.
<br><br>To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts =
to explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's =
supposition above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know.<br><br=
>
Bob Yates<br>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"Wj3C7c"><br><br><br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, =
please visit the list's web interface at:<br> <a href=3D"h=
ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank">http://list=
serv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
</a><br>and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG'=
;s web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.o=
rg/</a><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_Part_1723_5655121.1200075849495--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:03:22 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C85484.AB9CE8C1
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jane,
=20
That sounds like a clear and sensible approach. My college English
majors often had trouble with semi-colons too, and I did something
similar. I would explain, showing it on the board, that a semi-colon is
a comma raised by a period or a period lowered by a comma. That usually
made sense to them.
=20
Herb
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane Saral
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 1:24 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
=20
I like Craig's observation:
"The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to=20
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a=20
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity."
=20
When I taught the semi-colon as a way to fix these comma splices, I
proposed it as a three-quarter pause (with the comma being a half pause
and thus a little too wimpy for the situation and the period being a
full pause). Rather than telling kids all the time that they were
wrong, I would compliment them on their impulse to put the two sentences
together, for they were sensing the closer connection. I would tell
them that the instinct showed their growing sophistication about rhythms
and relationships in their writing. The only problem was that they were
sending the boy (half-pause comma) to do the man's job (three-quarter
pause semi-colon.) I will say that this made a big difference in the
frequency of comma splices and in the proper use of the semi-colon.
Students felt good about themselves as writers rather than put down.
Sometimes when a student would go overboard with too many semi-colons,
we could then talk about just how close two statements were. Did they
warrant the three-quarter pause or did they need their own separate
spaces? And then we could go on to explore other ways of achieving
sentence variety...=20
=20
Jane Saral
Atlanta
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
On Jan 11, 2008 10:59 AM, Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel and I have been
doing over the past ten years might turn out to be valuable.=20
=09
>>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>>
. . . our students are often making sensible errors,
and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their
mindset. That
also means respecting the underlying systems of the language
that they
are bringing into play.
*************
If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying
systems of the language" that students bring to their writing, you might
want to consult the following paper:
=09
Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on
the relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing,
22, 35-49.=20
=09
We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that
paper, we try to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the
language" leads to error corrections that will not help such students
improve.=20
=09
Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level
errors. Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47.
=09
At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number
of non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native
and non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like
structures (we don't like the term "error" either) are principled.=20
=09
Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the
attention of the list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he
has read it.
=09
There is something right about the following by Craig:
=09
The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in
my
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the
first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed
to=20
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern,
which I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only
one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern,
maybe a=20
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.
Of course, in most of the reading our students do, they rarely
see such punctuation. This raises a question about where these
non-standard practices come from.=20
=09
A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is
based only on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions
based on the frequency of those constructions in the input) has a
problem accounting for these non-standard punctuation practices. After
all, if language is a series of constructions, why are students
punctuation practices so deviant from most of the input they have
received?=20
=09
In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those
principles might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right.
This is interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is
most insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional
Linguistics. Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the
mind. It is puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the
underlying system of language our students bring to writing but he has a
commitment to a view of language that cannot address what those
underlying principles are.=20
=09
To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that
attempts to explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles.
Craig's supposition above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I
know.
=09
Bob Yates
=09
=09
=09
=09
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=20
and select "Join or leave the list"
=09
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C85484.AB9CE8C1
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" =
xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>
<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Jane,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>That sounds like a clear and sensible approach. My =
college English
majors often had trouble with semi-colons too, and I did something =
similar. I
would explain, showing it on the board, that a semi-colon is a comma =
raised by
a period or a period lowered by a comma. That usually made sense =
to them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly =
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Jane
Saral<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 11, 2008 1:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Commas in compound sentences<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>I like Craig's observation:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>"The most common run-on sentence, usually a =
commas
splice, in my<br>
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the =
first<br>
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to =
<br>
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, =
which
I<br>
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one<br>
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a =
<br>
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity."<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>When I taught the semi-colon as a way to fix these =
comma
splices, I proposed it as a three-quarter pause (with the comma being a =
half
pause and thus a little too wimpy for the situation and the period being =
a full
pause). Rather than telling kids all the time that they were =
wrong,
I would compliment them on their impulse to put the two sentences =
together, for
they were sensing the closer connection. I would tell them
that the instinct showed their growing sophistication about rhythms =
and
relationships in their writing. The only problem was that they =
were
sending the boy (half-pause comma) to do the man's job (three-quarter =
pause
semi-colon.) I will say that this made a big difference in the =
frequency
of comma splices and in the proper use of the =
semi-colon. Students
felt good about themselves as writers rather than put down. Sometimes =
when a
student would go overboard with too many semi-colons, we could then talk =
about
just how close two statements were. Did they warrant the =
three-quarter
pause or did they need their own separate spaces? And then we =
could
go on to explore other ways of achieving sentence variety... =
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Jane Saral<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Atlanta<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>On Jan 11, 2008 10:59 AM, Robert Yates <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel =
and I
have been doing over the past ten years might turn out to be valuable. =
<br>
<br>
>>> Craig Hancock <<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>
01/11/08 8:47 AM >>><br>
. . . our students are often making sensible =
errors,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>and it's hard to
"correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That<br>
also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that =
they<br>
are bringing into play.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>*************<br>
If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying =
systems of
the language" that students bring to their writing, you might want =
to
consult the following paper:<br>
<br>
Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on =
the
relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, =
22,
35-49. <br>
<br>
We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that paper, =
we try
to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the =
language"
leads to error corrections that will not help such students improve. =
<br>
<br>
Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level errors.
Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47.<br>
<br>
At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of
non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native and
non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like =
structures (we
don't like the term "error" either) are principled. <br>
<br>
Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention of =
the list
our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read it.<br>
<br>
There is something right about the following by Craig:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in =
my<br>
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the =
first<br>
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to =
<br>
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, =
which
I<br>
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one<br>
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a =
<br>
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Of course, in most of the reading our students do, =
they
rarely see such punctuation. This raises a question about where =
these
non-standard practices come from. <br>
<br>
A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is =
based only
on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions based on =
the
frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem accounting =
for
these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if language =
is a
series of constructions, why are students punctuation practices so =
deviant from
most of the input they have received? <br>
<br>
In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those =
principles
might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. This =
is
interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is most =
insightful
to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguistics. =
Halliday is
quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind. It is =
puzzling that
Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying system of language our
students bring to writing but he has a commitment to a view of language =
that
cannot address what those underlying principles are. <br>
<br>
To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts to =
explain
run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's supposition =
above
is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know.<br>
<br>
Bob Yates<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:<br>
<a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html </a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
<br>
Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or =
leave
the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C85484.AB9CE8C1--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:55:33 +0000
From: Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
> Craig,
Where did you get the idea that in Britain we don't put commas before
conjunctions in compound sentences? We adopt the FANBOYS rule all right
(unless your speaker was gabbling at high speed -- or was Dickens' Mrs.
Lirriper or Joyce's Molly Bloom!). As you say, we do largely omit the comma
before the conjunction in a list of nouns or verbs, etc., though that is not
absolute -- for there are occasions where the comma emphasizes distinctness
for some reason: for example, I kept this so-called 'Oxford' comma in the
title of my recent book 'Narrative, Perception, Language, and Faith' because
the appearance in the argument of the topic of faith is intended to be
something of a surprise.
Edmond
Dr. Edmond Wright
3 Boathouse Court
Trafalgar Road
Cambridge
CB4 1DU
England
Email: [log in to unmask]
Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
Just to complicate the talk (after all these votes for simplicity),
> British practice differs from American on this one. They don't ask for
> commas here (before the conjunction linking compound sentences) or
> before the final element in a series (with "and" or "or".) >
> What you would hope for, I think, is consistency, not just a sporadic
> sprinkling. If the comma is included or left out DELIBERATELY and
> consistently, then I don't think we should command otherwise.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:14:37 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
Bob,
You and I share a great respect for Mina Shaughnessy and certainly the
notion that non-standard practices are often very sensible is at the
heart of it. In some of her articles, she talked about the kinds of
changes that teachers need to undergo before they can be helpful to
students who seem very much different from ourselves. (See for example
"Open Admissions and the Disadvantaqed Teacher" (College composition
and communication, dec. 73) or "Diving In, An Introduction to Basic
Writing (CCC October '76.) The seminal text, of course, is Errors and
Expectations (Oxford, '77.) I know you know her work, so this is mostly
a heads-up to anyone unfamiliar with it. I'm happy we share an
appreciation for her work and that you are doing your best to extend
it. >
I'm a little baffled by your other comments. I don't think the
intonation system is innate. Halliday has written a great deal about
intonation, and his book, Intonation in the Grammar of English, is due
out shortly from Equinox. (I'm told it is getting "finishing
touches.") Much of the exposure from language is from speech rather
than writing, and it should certainly come as no surprise that
patterns from speech should find their way into writing, whether
innate or acquired or both.
We don't acquire language simply from exposure. The mechanisms are more
complex than that.
Craig
It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel and I have been doing over
> the past ten years might turn out to be valuable.
>
>>>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>>
> . . . our students are often making sensible errors,
> and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That
> also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they
> are bringing into play.
>
> *************
> If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying systems of
> the language" that students bring to their writing, you might want to
> consult the following paper:
>
> Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on the
> relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, 22,
> 35-49.
>
> We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that paper, we try
> to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the language" leads
> to error corrections that will not help such students improve.
>
> Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level errors.
> Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47.
>
> At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of
> non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native and
> non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like structures (we
> don't like the term "error" either) are principled.
>
> Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention of the
> list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read it.
>
> There is something right about the following by Craig:
>
> The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
> experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
> in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
> love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
> would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
> idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
> half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.
>
> Of course, in most of the reading our students do, they rarely see such
> punctuation. This raises a question about where these non-standard
> practices come from.
>
> A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is based only
> on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions based on the
> frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem accounting
> for these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if language is a
> series of constructions, why are students punctuation practices so deviant
> from most of the input they have received?
>
> In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those
> principles might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. This
> is interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is most
> insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguistics.
> Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind. It is
> puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying system of
> language our students bring to writing but he has a commitment to a view
> of language that cannot address what those underlying principles are.
>
> To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts to
> explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's supposition
> above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know.
>
> Bob Yates
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:54:26 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
Edmond,
I have a British publisher (Equinox) for my book, Meaning-Centered
Grammar. Believe it or not, the copy editor took all those commas out
(hundreds, maybe thousands over the course of the whole book), and did
this despite the fact that I advocate their use in my chapter on
grammar and writing. I was told at the time that he was following
British practice. When I objected, I won the argument, and they were
dutifully put back in. Perhaps I was misled?
It may be the systems that we get used to come to seem the most
functional, perhaps because we find ways to defy expectations
purposefully. If the final series comma is expected, then we can make a
point by leaving it out, as in "peanut butter and jelly" or "down and
out", which are often one thing rather than two.
Is your book as interesting as its title?
Craig
>> Craig,
>
> Where did you get the idea that in Britain we don't put commas before
> conjunctions in compound sentences? We adopt the FANBOYS rule all right
> (unless your speaker was gabbling at high speed -- or was Dickens' Mrs.
> Lirriper or Joyce's Molly Bloom!). As you say, we do largely omit the
> comma
> before the conjunction in a list of nouns or verbs, etc., though that is
> not
> absolute -- for there are occasions where the comma emphasizes
> distinctness
> for some reason: for example, I kept this so-called 'Oxford' comma in the
> title of my recent book 'Narrative, Perception, Language, and Faith'
> because
> the appearance in the argument of the topic of faith is intended to be
> something of a surprise.
>
> Edmond
>
>
> Dr. Edmond Wright
> 3 Boathouse Court
> Trafalgar Road
> Cambridge
> CB4 1DU
> England
>
> Email: [log in to unmask]
> Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
> Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Just to complicate the talk (after all these votes for simplicity),
>> British practice differs from American on this one. They don't ask for
>> commas here (before the conjunction linking compound sentences) or
>> before the final element in a series (with "and" or "or".) >
>> What you would hope for, I think, is consistency, not just a
>> sporadic
>> sprinkling. If the comma is included or left out DELIBERATELY and
>> consistently, then I don't think we should command otherwise.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:16:47 +0000
From: Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
> Craig,
I don't know where your British copy-editor got that extraordinary idea that
we don't use the comma in compound sentences. Perhaps it is one sad result
of the disappearance of all things linguistic from our English syllabuses --
the result of the great neo-romantic banishment of grammar in the sixties
and onwards. I have the commas for that purpose all over my book, as well
as a crop of semicolons and colons, and my copy-editor was perfectly happy
with them all.
You ask about my book -- that is a distinct temptation to send you, and
presumably (brazenly) everyone else! -- the advertisement for it and what
the cover looks like, but I don't think ATEG accepts attachments. I'll send
them separately directly to you.
Edmond
Edmond,
> I have a British publisher (Equinox) for my book, Meaning-Centered
> Grammar. Believe it or not, the copy editor took all those commas out
> (hundreds, maybe thousands over the course of the whole book), and did
> this despite the fact that I advocate their use in my chapter on
> grammar and writing. I was told at the time that he was following
> British practice. When I objected, I won the argument, and they were
> dutifully put back in. Perhaps I was misled?
> It may be the systems that we get used to come to seem the most
> functional, perhaps because we find ways to defy expectations
> purposefully. If the final series comma is expected, then we can make a
> point by leaving it out, as in "peanut butter and jelly" or "down and
> out", which are often one thing rather than two.
> Is your book as interesting as its title?
>
> Craig
>
>
>
>
>
>>> Craig,
>>
>> Where did you get the idea that in Britain we don't put commas before
>> conjunctions in compound sentences? We adopt the FANBOYS rule all right
>> (unless your speaker was gabbling at high speed -- or was Dickens' Mrs.
>> Lirriper or Joyce's Molly Bloom!). As you say, we do largely omit the
>> comma
>> before the conjunction in a list of nouns or verbs, etc., though that is
>> not
>> absolute -- for there are occasions where the comma emphasizes
>> distinctness
>> for some reason: for example, I kept this so-called 'Oxford' comma in
the
>> title of my recent book 'Narrative, Perception, Language, and Faith'
>> because
>> the appearance in the argument of the topic of faith is intended to be
>> something of a surprise.
>>
>> Edmond
>>
>>
>> Dr. Edmond Wright
>> 3 Boathouse Court
>> Trafalgar Road
>> Cambridge
>> CB4 1DU
>> England
>>
>> Email: [log in to unmask]
>> Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
>> Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Just to complicate the talk (after all these votes for simplicity),
>>> British practice differs from American on this one. They don't ask for
>>> commas here (before the conjunction linking compound sentences) or
>>> before the final element in a series (with "and" or "or".) >
>>> What you would hope for, I think, is consistency, not just a
>>> sporadic
>>> sprinkling. If the comma is included or left out DELIBERATELY and
>>> consistently, then I don't think we should command otherwise.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 10 Jan 2008 to 11 Jan 2008 (#2008-4)
*********************************************************
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/