Hey, Herb! I have not responded to the ATEG list for quite some time because I have been busy with a new teaching position. I really miss reading and responding to everyone's posts. However, I noticed this post because it relates to much of what a high school English teacher does--instruct in correct punctuation of sentences to achieve clear communication. Herb, are you suggesting that we (high school teachers) not correct a sentence that really contains a comma splice? Although I agree with you that the writer has expressed him or herself in your example sentence, I think that the writer could easily be instructed how to separate these clauses without interfering with his or her expression. Is it wrong to instruct writers to consider the reader's confusion and to punctuate and add conjunctions in such a way to eliminate reader confusion? Isn't that the basis of punctuation, anyway? Certainly many commas are unnecessary because no reader confusion exists, but to allow writers to carry on without regard to punctuation, coordination, or subordination seems to me to condone their confused writing. I teach students to always keep in mind their readers or listeners. Do I dare tell students that punctuation is arbitrary? as always, thanks to all of you who post and respond! "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on this question. The problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the perspective of teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on any consistent theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion of cultural practices that have gained varying degrees of acceptance in different parts of the world and of English speaking cultures. Run-on sentences and comma splices frequently represent cases where the spoken language expresses relationships between clauses that the written language, with, for example, its lack of intonation and stress contrast, cannot distinguish. Turabian correctly recognizes that not all coordinate clauses are the same and that punctuation practice can vary. Compare the following sentences: 1. Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache. 2. Harry ate five green apples, and he got a stomach ache. In (1) there is clearly a connection between the two events, the first preceding and causing the second. (2), on the other hand, suggests that both things took place but that we should not assume a relationship between them. In speech, this contrast would be distinguished by a slight intonational rise on "apples" in (1) and falling intonation on "apples" in (2). This sense that the two clauses are related in ways that go beyond both simply being asserted is at the basis of a lot of the run-ons I've seen. Comma splices tend to be a more complicated problem, partly because there are more grammatical factors to consider: presence or absence of a conjunctive adverb, intonation contour, presence or absence of a coordinating conjunction, use of a semi-colon or a comma, clausal vs. phrasal status of the second element, etc. It's easy to state a rule that two clauses are separated by a comma only if the second begins with a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one of four methods must be used: (a) put a period after the first and capitalize the first letter of the second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use a semi-colon and a conjunctive adverb, (d) put a period after the first and capitalize the conjunctive adverb (some editors reject this option). In (3), any of the standard options would work: 3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has seen a lot of accidents; therefore, the city council ordered four-way stop signs installed. However, in (4) the semantic relationship between the two clauses is close enough that a writer may not want the force of the semi-colon and may sense that a comma fits the relationship better: 4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach ache. Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this is a deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability. I would certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career decisions are to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many comma splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say something that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to allow. Herb -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences My observations: 1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but not exclusively, in fiction. 2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for short, closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under that exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of commas was meant to convey a more conversational tone. 3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that require students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as to why it can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear to avoid clauses that might fall under the short & related exception. I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule at first, perhaps not until high school. Give them some time to get an intuitive feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of clauses. Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense. Michael Kischner wrote: > I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma before > a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and omitting > the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly fiction > books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it is > certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels to use > the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print. > > Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for > elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before each > coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book, *Clarice > Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like this: > "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much anymore > and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly > mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up > sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play soccer, > but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg." > > I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest place to > find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't searched > methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both > fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers. > > I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become one of > those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to in > order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until they're > ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are effective > or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a better > rule. > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/