Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:48:35 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Rosemary R Jackson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: attitudes about grammar
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I was just informed that my dissertation won't be accessible via
Proquest/UMI until approximately eight weeks from now. I can provide
the Abstract, and then there are specific questions that I can
answer, I would be happy to do so.
Rosemary
Dr. Rosemary R. Jackson
VP-Educational Media and Distance Learning
Kennedy-King College
6258 S. Union
Chicago 60621
773.602.5000 or
773.487.1318
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----- Original Message -----
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Monday, January 7, 2008 9:57 pm
Subject: Re: attitudes about grammar
>
> How might we access your dissertation?> Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008
> 17:51:46 -0600> From: [log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: attitudes
> about grammar> To: [log in to unmask]> > My recent
> dissertation examined the ways that non-standard English >
> speaking African American students adjust to the expectations by >
> academic faculty that college students use Standard English
> grammar. The > study examined the attitudes and perceptions such
> students have about > using Standard English grammar, focusing
> particularly on the > implications of the "acting white"
> phenomenon.> > Dr. Rosemary R. Jackson> Vice President-Educational
> Media and Distance Learning> Kennedy-King College> > Carol
> Morrison wrote:> > > I am currently conducting research with my
> Freshman writing sections on > > that topic as it relates to
> learning grammar as a whole and the value > > that students assign
> it in the spectrum of their writing curricula. The > > results of
> my study will not be analyzed until the end of > > January/mid-
> Feb.(I am working with a panel of researchers who are > >
> examining other aspects of teaching grammar as well) I am not
> aware of > > any published studies in that area, but I am also
> interested in > > learning of them.> > Best-> > Carol Morrison> >
> > > "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:> > > > Dear
> Friends:> > > > A student in my introduction to language course
> wants to do her> > final project on people's attitudes about
> grammar. Has anyone> > studied and published work on why people
> love--or fear--or loathe> > grammar? Can anyone point us to
> research on the topic?> > > > Thanks--> > Seth> > > > Dr. Seth
> Katz> > Assistant Professor> > Department of English> > Bradley
> University> > > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
> visit the list's web> > interface at:> >
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> > and select "Join
> or leave the list"> > > > Visit ATEG's web site at
> http://ateg.org/> > > > > > ---------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------> > Be a better friend,
> newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try > > it now. > >
>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:52:30 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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OK, I'll admit it. This is one of those places where being a creative
writer has completely ruined me. I tend to use commas as pauses, and if
there is no sense of pause, then I use no comma.
So for me at least, the second sentence: "Matthew wanted to play soccer, but
the doctor said he should rest his injured leg." does not look "cluttered"
at all, but sensible - there is a pause implied by "but" that, in my head,
requires a comma. The first sentence: "Grandad has actually got manners but
he doesn't use them that much anymore and he hasn't let the dog see them,
which is why Cement is utterly mannerless." could work as it stands, if that
is the rushed utterance of a child (in dialogue), but if I were to write it
myself I would probably end up with: "Grandad has actually got manners, but
he doesn't use them that much anymore; he hasn't let the dog see them,
either, which is why Cement is utterly mannerless."
And all, some, or none of those might be "correct," from a prescriptive
bias! I don't even know if I know when to apply that particular rule
anymore. But what I do not know, and would be interested in hearing, is how
other people express the teaching of comma usage.
-patty
_____
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Kischner
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Commas in compound sentences
I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma before
a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and omitting
the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly fiction
books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it is
certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels to use
the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print.
Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for
elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before each
coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book, Clarice
Bean Spells Trouble by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like this:
"Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much anymore
and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly
mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up
sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play soccer,
but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."
I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest place to
find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't searched
methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both
fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become one of
those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to in
order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until they're
ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are effective
or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a better
rule.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
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OK, I’ll admit it. This is one of
those places where being a creative writer has completely ruined me. I tend to
use commas as pauses, and if there is no sense of pause, then I use no comma. So for me at least, the second sentence: “Matthew
wanted to play soccer, but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg.”
does not look “cluttered” at all, but sensible – there is a
pause implied by “but” that, in my head, requires a comma. The
first sentence: “Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn’t
use them that much anymore and he hasn’t let the dog see them, which is
why Cement is utterly mannerless.” could work as it stands, if that is
the rushed utterance of a child (in dialogue), but if I were to write it myself
I would probably end up with: “Grandad has actually got manners, but he
doesn’t use them that much anymore; he hasn’t let the dog see them,
either, which is why Cement is utterly mannerless.” And all, some, or none of those might be “correct,”
from a prescriptive bias! I don’t even know if I know when to apply that
particular rule anymore. But what I do not know, and would be interested in
hearing, is how other people express the teaching of comma usage. -patty From: I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma before
a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and omitting the
comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly fiction books
for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it is certainly
the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels to use the
comma, we are up against most of what they see in print. Visit
ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:39:00 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
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My observations:
1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but not
exclusively, in fiction.
2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for short,
closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under that
exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of commas
was meant to convey a more conversational tone.
3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that require
students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as to why it
can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear to avoid
clauses that might fall under the short & related exception.
I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule at first,
perhaps not until high school. Give them some time to get an intuitive
feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of clauses.
Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense.
Michael Kischner wrote:
> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma before
> a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and omitting
> the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly fiction
> books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it is
> certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels to use
> the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print.
>
> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for
> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before each
> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book, *Clarice
> Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like this:
> "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much anymore
> and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly
> mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up
> sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play soccer,
> but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."
>
> I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest place to
> find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't searched
> methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both
> fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
>
> I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become one of
> those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to in
> order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until they're
> ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are effective
> or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a better
> rule.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:08:25 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
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I tell my (college) students that it's one of those rules that they need
to apply in formal academic writing, but can take less seriously in
other styles. Frankly, I have to admit that I tell them this mainly
because I think other teachers / editors enforce it, not because I think
it's a particularly valuable rule. One difficulty, though: telling
students they need to use it in formal writing doesn't work very well if
they've never had any exposure to the independent / dependent clause
distinction, so even if we don't present the rule until late high school
or early college, the groundwork for it needs to be in place already.
I'm not sure of its history, but I suspect it's one of those many, many
cases that started out as a helpful suggestion about warding off
ambiguity and ended up being a rigid requirement.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Kischner
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Commas in compound sentences
I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma
before a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and
omitting the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly
fiction books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those
books it is certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at
those levels to use the comma, we are up against most of what they see
in print.
Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for
elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before each
coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book,
Clarice Bean Spells Trouble by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences
like this: "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them
that much anymore and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why
Cement is utterly mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my
carefully made-up sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew
wanted to play soccer, but the doctor said he should rest his injured
leg."
I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest place
to find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't
searched methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place,
in both fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become one
of those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to
in order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until
they're ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are
effective or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd
prefer is a better rule.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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I tell my (college) students that it’s one of those rules
that they need to apply in formal academic writing, but can take less seriously
in other styles. Frankly, I have to admit that I tell them this mainly because
I think other teachers / editors enforce it, not because I think it’s
a particularly valuable rule. One difficulty, though: telling students they
need to use it in formal writing doesn’t work very well if they’ve
never had any exposure to the independent / dependent clause distinction, so
even if we don’t present the rule until late high school or early
college, the groundwork for it needs to be in place already. I’m not sure of its history, but I suspect it’s
one of those many, many cases that started out as a helpful suggestion about
warding off ambiguity and ended up being a rigid requirement. Bill Spruiell Dept. of English Central Michigan University From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael
Kischner I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that
placing a comma before a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the
rule and omitting the comma is the exception? I have been reading through
mostly fiction books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those
books it is certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those
levels to use the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print. Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C853CC.F0906DD0--
========================================================================Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:22:25 EST
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Edgar Schuster <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
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Warding off ambiguity perhaps, Bill, and perhaps also as a way of
distinguishing the conjunctions that join sentences from those that join words or
phrases?
It is not just fiction writers who omit the comma on occasion, as someone has
pointed out, but what has struck me in my studies is how often all kinds of
writers put a PERIOD in front of the conjunction. It seems to depend upon
what effect they want.
Ed Schuster
**************
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in
shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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Warding off ambiguity perhaps, Bill, and perhaps also as a way of distinguishing the conjunctions that join sentences from those that join words or phrases?
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:39:22 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
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I've looked at various guides and handbooks over the years on this issue. What I find telling is that there is no widely-agreed name we give to the error that results (1) when a comma is left out in a compound sentence or (2) when a comma is inserted needlessly in what only LOOKS like a compound sentence but is really just a compound verb. The fact that we lack a name for these semi-related problems indicates the errors are not so serious, not compared to 'Those Errors Which We Elect to Name' (e.g., comma splice). These nameless errors are some of the most common I see in my college students' writing--common, but not so serious as other potential problems.
That being said, I think the comma in a compound sentence is useful, for it cues the reader where a different 'idea' (subject & verb) ends and where another related idea begins. Often, the comma is not the only cue, yet I find it a useful signal most of the time.
In creative writing, these commas are particularly expendable for the reasons others have already pointed out--especially when it comes to dialogue and intentional pauses.
Larry
____________________________
Larry Beason, Associate Professor
Director of Composition
University of South Alabama
Mobile, AL 36688-0002
251-460-7861
>>> "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> 01/10/08 3:08 PM >>>
I tell my (college) students that it's one of those rules that they need
to apply in formal academic writing, but can take less seriously in
other styles. Frankly, I have to admit that I tell them this mainly
because I think other teachers / editors enforce it, not because I think
it's a particularly valuable rule. One difficulty, though: telling
students they need to use it in formal writing doesn't work very well if
they've never had any exposure to the independent / dependent clause
distinction, so even if we don't present the rule until late high school
or early college, the groundwork for it needs to be in place already.
I'm not sure of its history, but I suspect it's one of those many, many
cases that started out as a helpful suggestion about warding off
ambiguity and ended up being a rigid requirement.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Kischner
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Commas in compound sentences
I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma
before a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and
omitting the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly
fiction books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those
books it is certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at
those levels to use the comma, we are up against most of what they see
in print.
Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for
elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before each
coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book,
Clarice Bean Spells Trouble by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences
like this: "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them
that much anymore and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why
Cement is utterly mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my
carefully made-up sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew
wanted to play soccer, but the doctor said he should rest his injured
leg."
I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest place
to find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't
searched methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place,
in both fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become one
of those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to
in order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until
they're ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are
effective or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd
prefer is a better rule.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:37:40 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Linda Comerford <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Much to my surprise, the corporate training I've done for almost 20 years
now has often focused on grammar (written and oral) and punctuation. The
adults I meet in my workshops are searching for as many simple,
close-to-almost-always rules they can follow when writing and editing.
One of the most typical questions I receive is the one you've just
indicated. You would not believe the sighs of relief I hear around the room
when I share this simple rule:
If you have two complete thoughts, always use a comma before the FANBOYS
(for, and, nor, but, or, yet, so). If not, don't. I then illustrate with
examples like these:
Linda teaches professional writing skills, and she enjoys working with great
groups like you.
Linda teaches professional writing skills and enjoys working with great
groups like you.
They grasp that easily and are so relieved to have a simple rule (without
accompanying cluttering exceptions) they can use and share with others.
This rule has never failed me or one of my participants. I hope it helps
you too.
Linda Comerford
www.comerfordconsulting.com
_____
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:08 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
I tell my (college) students that it's one of those rules that they need to
apply in formal academic writing, but can take less seriously in other
styles. Frankly, I have to admit that I tell them this mainly because I
think other teachers / editors enforce it, not because I think it's a
particularly valuable rule. One difficulty, though: telling students they
need to use it in formal writing doesn't work very well if they've never had
any exposure to the independent / dependent clause distinction, so even if
we don't present the rule until late high school or early college, the
groundwork for it needs to be in place already.
I'm not sure of its history, but I suspect it's one of those many, many
cases that started out as a helpful suggestion about warding off ambiguity
and ended up being a rigid requirement.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Kischner
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Commas in compound sentences
I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma before
a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and omitting
the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly fiction
books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it is
certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels to use
the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print.
Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for
elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before each
coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book, Clarice
Bean Spells Trouble by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like this:
"Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much anymore
and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly
mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up
sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play soccer,
but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."
I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest place to
find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't searched
methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both
fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become one of
those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to in
order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until they're
ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are effective
or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a better
rule.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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I
tell my (college) students that it’s one of those rules that they need to apply
in formal academic writing, but can take less seriously in other styles.
Frankly, I have to admit that I tell them this mainly because I think
other teachers / editors enforce it, not because I think it’s a
particularly valuable rule. One difficulty, though: telling students they need
to use it in formal writing doesn’t work very well if they’ve never had any
exposure to the independent / dependent clause distinction, so even if we don’t
present the rule until late high school or early college, the groundwork
for it needs to be in place already. I’m
not sure of its history, but I suspect it’s one of those many, many cases that
started out as a helpful suggestion about warding off ambiguity and ended up
being a rigid requirement. Bill
Spruiell Dept.
of English Central
Michigan University From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Michael Kischner I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing
a comma before a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and
omitting the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly
fiction books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it is
certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels to use
the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print. Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_NextPart_000_0080_01C853A7.1E2EDA50--
========================================================================Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:42:01 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "McLay, Barbara" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
In-Reply-To: A<007f01c853d1$0704e250$4101a8c0@LindaComputer>
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I heartily agree with you, Linda! I think it is best to keep simple
rules simple. When you start allowing choices when the rules are meant
to be clear, your attempts at teaching get confusing. Just because it
is in print does not mean it is correct. You would not believe how many
books I have come across that confuse "then" and "than." My students
delight in finding printed errors in books and newspapers.
Barbara McLay
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda Comerford
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:38 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
Much to my surprise, the corporate training I've done for almost 20
years now has often focused on grammar (written and oral) and
punctuation. The adults I meet in my workshops are searching for as
many simple, close-to-almost-always rules they can follow when writing
and editing.
One of the most typical questions I receive is the one you've just
indicated. You would not believe the sighs of relief I hear around the
room when I share this simple rule:
If you have two complete thoughts, always use a comma before the FANBOYS
(for, and, nor, but, or, yet, so). If not, don't. I then illustrate
with examples like these:
Linda teaches professional writing skills, and she enjoys working with
great groups like you.
Linda teaches professional writing skills and enjoys working with great
groups like you.
They grasp that easily and are so relieved to have a simple rule
(without accompanying cluttering exceptions) they can use and share with
others.
This rule has never failed me or one of my participants. I hope it
helps you too.
Linda Comerford
www.comerfordconsulting.com
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:08 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
I tell my (college) students that it's one of those rules that they need
to apply in formal academic writing, but can take less seriously in
other styles. Frankly, I have to admit that I tell them this mainly
because I think other teachers / editors enforce it, not because I think
it's a particularly valuable rule. One difficulty, though: telling
students they need to use it in formal writing doesn't work very well if
they've never had any exposure to the independent / dependent clause
distinction, so even if we don't present the rule until late high school
or early college, the groundwork for it needs to be in place already.
I'm not sure of its history, but I suspect it's one of those many, many
cases that started out as a helpful suggestion about warding off
ambiguity and ended up being a rigid requirement.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:ATEG@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Kischner
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Commas in compound sentences
I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma
before a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and
omitting the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly
fiction books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those
books it is certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at
those levels to use the comma, we are up against most of what they see
in print.
Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for
elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before each
coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book,
Clarice Bean Spells Trouble by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences
like this: "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them
that much anymore and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why
Cement is utterly mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my
carefully made-up sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew
wanted to play soccer, but the doctor said he should rest his injured
leg."
I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest place
to find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't
searched methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place,
in both fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become one
of those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to
in order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until
they're ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are
effective or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd
prefer is a better rule.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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I
tell my (college) students that it’s one of those rules that they need to apply
in formal academic writing, but can take less seriously in other styles.
Frankly, I have to admit that I tell them this mainly because I think
other teachers / editors enforce it, not because I think it’s a
particularly valuable rule. One difficulty, though: telling students they need
to use it in formal writing doesn’t work very well if they’ve never had any
exposure to the independent / dependent clause distinction, so even if we don’t
present the rule until late high school or early college, the groundwork
for it needs to be in place already. I’m
not sure of its history, but I suspect it’s one of those many, many cases that
started out as a helpful suggestion about warding off ambiguity and ended up
being a rigid requirement. Bill
Spruiell Dept.
of English Central
Michigan University From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Michael Kischner I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing
a comma before a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and
omitting the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly
fiction books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it is
certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels to use
the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print. Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C853DA.03CB5342--
========================================================================Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:21:07 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
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Just to complicate the talk (after all these votes for simplicity),
British practice differs from American on this one. They don't ask for
commas here (before the conjunction linking compound sentences) or
before the final element in a series (with "and" or "or".) >
What you would hope for, I think, is consistency, not just a sporadic
sprinkling. If the comma is included or left out DELIBERATELY and
consistently, then I don't think we should command otherwise.
Craig
I heartily agree with you, Linda! I think it is best to keep simple
> rules simple. When you start allowing choices when the rules are meant
> to be clear, your attempts at teaching get confusing. Just because it
> is in print does not mean it is correct. You would not believe how many
> books I have come across that confuse "then" and "than." My students
> delight in finding printed errors in books and newspapers.
> Barbara McLay
> ________________________________
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda Comerford
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:38 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
>
>
> Much to my surprise, the corporate training I've done for almost 20
> years now has often focused on grammar (written and oral) and
> punctuation. The adults I meet in my workshops are searching for as
> many simple, close-to-almost-always rules they can follow when writing
> and editing.
>
> One of the most typical questions I receive is the one you've just
> indicated. You would not believe the sighs of relief I hear around the
> room when I share this simple rule:
>
> If you have two complete thoughts, always use a comma before the FANBOYS
> (for, and, nor, but, or, yet, so). If not, don't. I then illustrate
> with examples like these:
>
> Linda teaches professional writing skills, and she enjoys working with
> great groups like you.
> Linda teaches professional writing skills and enjoys working with great
> groups like you.
>
> They grasp that easily and are so relieved to have a simple rule
> (without accompanying cluttering exceptions) they can use and share with
> others.
>
> This rule has never failed me or one of my participants. I hope it
> helps you too.
>
> Linda Comerford
> www.comerfordconsulting.com
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:08 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
>
>
>
> I tell my (college) students that it's one of those rules that they need
> to apply in formal academic writing, but can take less seriously in
> other styles. Frankly, I have to admit that I tell them this mainly
> because I think other teachers / editors enforce it, not because I think
> it's a particularly valuable rule. One difficulty, though: telling
> students they need to use it in formal writing doesn't work very well if
> they've never had any exposure to the independent / dependent clause
> distinction, so even if we don't present the rule until late high school
> or early college, the groundwork for it needs to be in place already.
>
>
>
> I'm not sure of its history, but I suspect it's one of those many, many
> cases that started out as a helpful suggestion about warding off
> ambiguity and ended up being a rigid requirement.
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> Dept. of English
>
> Central Michigan University
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Kischner
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:32 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Commas in compound sentences
>
>
>
> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma
> before a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and
> omitting the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly
> fiction books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those
> books it is certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at
> those levels to use the comma, we are up against most of what they see
> in print.
>
> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for
> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before each
> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book,
> Clarice Bean Spells Trouble by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences
> like this: "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them
> that much anymore and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why
> Cement is utterly mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my
> carefully made-up sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew
> wanted to play soccer, but the doctor said he should rest his injured
> leg."
>
> I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest place
> to find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't
> searched methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place,
> in both fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
>
> I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become one
> of those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to
> in order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until
> they're ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are
> effective or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd
> prefer is a better rule.
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:10:46 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Nancy Tuten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: style differences (was "Commas in compound sentences")
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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It's not just the British who muddy the waters for laypeople trying to get a
handle on what is considered "correct" punctuation. I am training later this
month for a group that adheres to a style manual very widely revered in the
business world. It was one I did not know well, so I have been making my way
through it in order to prepare for the training. I am eager to write to the
author and find out why his style book seems to advocate the following,
contrary to Chicago, MLA, and APA (just to name the ones I am most familiar
with):
* It advocates putting a comma in front of coordinating conjunctions
but repeatedly lists only and, but, or, and nor as the coordinating
conjunctions, omitting for, so, and yet.
* It advocates the use of a colon after a sentence fragment that
introduces a vertical list.
* With singular words ending in "s," this style book tells readers
*sometimes* to add the additional "s" after the apostrophe and *sometimes*
not to do so--and then goes on to claim that the choice of whether to add
the "s" or not rests on the *completely subjective* test of whether or not
the particular reader/writer pronounces the additional syllable!! Now there
is a rule that drives the layperson CRAZY.
The business writing textbook that I have used to teach a business writing
class at Columbia College reflects this "rule" for how to handle the
possessive case of singular nouns ending in "s," further confusing students.
I am further baffled as to why a business writing textbook author would
choose to reflect this particular style book on this issue when it runs
counter to so many other very reputable style guides.
Of course, we all know that many of the so-called rules are arbitrary, and
we also understand that style books often differ for good reasons that have
to do with the disciplines they represent. But it is very frustrating to
explain to college students (and to working adults when I train in the
corporate world) why one lone-but widely respected-style book would choose
to be so out of step with so many others.
Thanks for letting me vent!
Nancy
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
[log in to unmask]
803-786-3706
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 7:21 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
Just to complicate the talk (after all these votes for simplicity),
British practice differs from American on this one. They don't ask for
commas here (before the conjunction linking compound sentences) or
before the final element in a series (with "and" or "or".) >
What you would hope for, I think, is consistency, not just a sporadic
sprinkling. If the comma is included or left out DELIBERATELY and
consistently, then I don't think we should command otherwise.
Craig
I heartily agree with you, Linda! I think it is best to keep simple
> rules simple. When you start allowing choices when the rules are meant
> to be clear, your attempts at teaching get confusing. Just because it
> is in print does not mean it is correct. You would not believe how many
> books I have come across that confuse "then" and "than." My students
> delight in finding printed errors in books and newspapers.
> Barbara McLay
> ________________________________
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda Comerford
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:38 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
>
>
> Much to my surprise, the corporate training I've done for almost 20
> years now has often focused on grammar (written and oral) and
> punctuation. The adults I meet in my workshops are searching for as
> many simple, close-to-almost-always rules they can follow when writing
> and editing.
>
> One of the most typical questions I receive is the one you've just
> indicated. You would not believe the sighs of relief I hear around the
> room when I share this simple rule:
>
> If you have two complete thoughts, always use a comma before the FANBOYS
> (for, and, nor, but, or, yet, so). If not, don't. I then illustrate
> with examples like these:
>
> Linda teaches professional writing skills, and she enjoys working with
> great groups like you.
> Linda teaches professional writing skills and enjoys working with great
> groups like you.
>
> They grasp that easily and are so relieved to have a simple rule
> (without accompanying cluttering exceptions) they can use and share with
> others.
>
> This rule has never failed me or one of my participants. I hope it
> helps you too.
>
> Linda Comerford
> www.comerfordconsulting.com
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:08 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
>
>
>
> I tell my (college) students that it's one of those rules that they need
> to apply in formal academic writing, but can take less seriously in
> other styles. Frankly, I have to admit that I tell them this mainly
> because I think other teachers / editors enforce it, not because I think
> it's a particularly valuable rule. One difficulty, though: telling
> students they need to use it in formal writing doesn't work very well if
> they've never had any exposure to the independent / dependent clause
> distinction, so even if we don't present the rule until late high school
> or early college, the groundwork for it needs to be in place already.
>
>
>
> I'm not sure of its history, but I suspect it's one of those many, many
> cases that started out as a helpful suggestion about warding off
> ambiguity and ended up being a rigid requirement.
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> Dept. of English
>
> Central Michigan University
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Kischner
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:32 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Commas in compound sentences
>
>
>
> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma
> before a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and
> omitting the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly
> fiction books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those
> books it is certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at
> those levels to use the comma, we are up against most of what they see
> in print.
>
> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for
> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before each
> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book,
> Clarice Bean Spells Trouble by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences
> like this: "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them
> that much anymore and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why
> Cement is utterly mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my
> carefully made-up sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew
> wanted to play soccer, but the doctor said he should rest his injured
> leg."
>
> I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest place
> to find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't
> searched methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place,
> in both fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
>
> I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become one
> of those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to
> in order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until
> they're ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are
> effective or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd
> prefer is a better rule.
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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It's not just the British who muddy the waters for laypeople
trying to get a handle on what is considered "correct" punctuation. I
am training later this month for a group that adheres to a style manual very
widely revered in the business world. It was one I did not know well, so I have
been making my way through it in order to prepare for the training. I am eager
to write to the author and find out why his style book seems to advocate the
following, contrary to Chicago, MLA, and APA
(just to name the ones I am most familiar with): ·
It advocates putting a comma in
front of coordinating conjunctions but repeatedly lists only and, but,
or, and nor as the coordinating conjunctions, omitting
for, so, and yet. ·
It advocates the use of a colon after
a sentence fragment that introduces a vertical list. ·
With singular words ending in “s,”
this style book tells readers *sometimes*
to add the additional “s” after the apostrophe and *sometimes* not to do so--and then goes on
to claim that the choice of whether to add the “s” or not rests on
the *completely subjective* test
of whether or not the particular reader/writer pronounces the additional
syllable!! Now there is a rule that drives the layperson CRAZY. The business writing textbook that I have used to
teach a business writing class at Columbia College reflects this “rule”
for how to handle the possessive case of singular nouns ending in “s,”
further confusing students. I am further baffled as to why a business writing
textbook author would choose to reflect this particular style book on this
issue when it runs counter to so many other very reputable style guides. Of course, we all know that many of the so-called rules
are arbitrary, and we also understand that style books often differ for good reasons
that have to do with the disciplines they represent. But it is very frustrating
to explain to college students (and to working adults when I train in the
corporate world) why one lone—but widely respected—style book would
choose to be so out of step with so many others. Thanks for letting me vent! Nancy L. Tuten, PhD Professor of English Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program 803-786-3706 -----Original Message----- Just to complicate the talk (after all
these votes for simplicity), British practice differs from American on this one.
They don't ask for commas here (before the conjunction linking compound
sentences) or before the final element in a series (with
"and" or "or".) > What you would hope for, I think,
is consistency, not just a sporadic sprinkling. If the comma is included or left out
DELIBERATELY and consistently, then I don't think we should command
otherwise. Craig I heartily agree with you, Linda! I think it is best
to keep simple > rules simple. When you start allowing choices
when the rules are meant > to be clear, your attempts at teaching get
confusing. Just because it > is in print does not mean it is correct.
You would not believe how many > books I have come across that confuse
"then" and "than." My students > delight in finding printed errors in books and
newspapers. > Barbara McLay > ________________________________ > > From: > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Linda Comerford > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:38 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences > > > Much to my surprise, the corporate training I've
done for almost 20 > years now has often focused on grammar (written
and oral) and > punctuation. The adults I meet in my
workshops are searching for as > many simple, close-to-almost-always rules they
can follow when writing > and editing. > > One of the most typical questions I receive is
the one you've just > indicated. You would not believe the sighs
of relief I hear around the > room when I share this simple rule: > > If you have two complete thoughts, always use a
comma before the FANBOYS > (for, and, nor, but, or, yet, so). If not,
don't. I then illustrate > with examples like these: > > Linda teaches professional writing skills, and
she enjoys working with > great groups like you. > Linda teaches professional writing skills and
enjoys working with great > groups like you. > > They grasp that easily and are so relieved to
have a simple rule > (without accompanying cluttering exceptions) they
can use and share with > others. > > This rule has never failed me or one of my
participants. I hope it > helps you too. > > Linda Comerford > www.comerfordconsulting.com > > > ________________________________ > > From: > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Spruiell, William C > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:08 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences > > > > I tell my (college) students that it's one of
those rules that they need > to apply in formal academic writing, but can take
less seriously in > other styles. Frankly, I have to admit that I
tell them this mainly > because I think other teachers / editors enforce
it, not because I think > it's a particularly valuable rule. One
difficulty, though: telling > students they need to use it in formal writing
doesn't work very well if > they've never had any exposure to the independent
/ dependent clause > distinction, so even if we don't present the rule
until late high school > or early college, the groundwork for it needs to
be in place already. > > > > I'm not sure of its history, but I suspect
it's one of those many, many > cases that started out as a helpful suggestion
about warding off > ambiguity and ended up being a rigid requirement. > > > > Bill Spruiell > > Dept. of English > > > > > > From: > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Michael Kischner > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:32 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Commas in compound sentences > > > > I'm wondering how many people are still teaching
that placing a comma > before a coordinating conjunction in a compound
sentence is the rule and > omitting the comma is the exception? I have
been reading through mostly > fiction books for elementary and middle school readers,
and in those > books it is certainly the other way around.
So in teaching kids at > those levels to use the comma, we are up against
most of what they see > in print. > > Last night, I made up some compound sentences to
use in a workshop for > elementary and middle school teachers. I
inserted the comma before each > coordinating conjunction. Then I read most
of a delightful book, > Clarice Bean Spells Trouble by Lauren
Child. It is full of sentences > like this: "Grandad has actually got manners
but he doesn't use them > that much anymore and he hasn't let the dog see
them, which is why > Cement is utterly mannerless." This
morning, when I returned to my > carefully made-up sentences, the commas looked
like clutter: "Matthew > wanted to play soccer, but the doctor said he
should rest his injured > leg." > > I know that fiction narrated in the first person
is the likeliest place > to find compound sentences without commas.
But, though I haven't > searched methodically, I think I have noticed
them all over the place, > in both fiction and nonfiction for both younger
and older readers. > > I wonder whether the
comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become one > of those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality
we sometimes resort to > in order to give learners something clear and
secure to grasp until > they're ready for more complexity. Whether
such oversimplifications are > effective or justified is a whole other
question. What I think I'd > prefer is a better rule. > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the list's web > interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the list's web > interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the list's web > interface at:
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the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:25:14 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
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Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on this question. The
problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the perspective of
teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on any consistent
theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion of cultural
practices that have gained varying degrees of acceptance in different
parts of the world and of English speaking cultures. Run-on sentences
and comma splices frequently represent cases where the spoken language
expresses relationships between clauses that the written language, with,
for example, its lack of intonation and stress contrast, cannot
distinguish. Turabian correctly recognizes that not all coordinate
clauses are the same and that punctuation practice can vary. Compare
the following sentences:
1. Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache.
2. Harry ate five green apples, and he got a stomach ache.
In (1) there is clearly a connection between the two events, the first
preceding and causing the second. (2), on the other hand, suggests that
both things took place but that we should not assume a relationship
between them. In speech, this contrast would be distinguished by a
slight intonational rise on "apples" in (1) and falling intonation on
"apples" in (2).
This sense that the two clauses are related in ways that go beyond both
simply being asserted is at the basis of a lot of the run-ons I've seen.
Comma splices tend to be a more complicated problem, partly because
there are more grammatical factors to consider: presence or absence of
a conjunctive adverb, intonation contour, presence or absence of a
coordinating conjunction, use of a semi-colon or a comma, clausal vs.
phrasal status of the second element, etc. It's easy to state a rule
that two clauses are separated by a comma only if the second begins with
a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one of four methods must be used:
(a) put a period after the first and capitalize the first letter of the
second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use a semi-colon and a conjunctive
adverb, (d) put a period after the first and capitalize the conjunctive
adverb (some editors reject this option).
In (3), any of the standard options would work:
3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has seen a lot of accidents; therefore,
the city council ordered four-way stop signs installed.
However, in (4) the semantic relationship between the two clauses is
close enough that a writer may not want the force of the semi-colon and
may sense that a comma fits the relationship better:
4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach ache.
Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this is a
deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability. I would
certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career decisions are
to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many comma
splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say something
that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to allow.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
My observations:
1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but not
exclusively, in fiction.
2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for short,
closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under that
exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of commas
was meant to convey a more conversational tone.
3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that require
students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as to why it
can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear to avoid
clauses that might fall under the short & related exception.
I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule at first,
perhaps not until high school. Give them some time to get an intuitive
feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of clauses.
Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense.
Michael Kischner wrote:
> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma
before
> a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and
omitting
> the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly
fiction
> books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it
is
> certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels
to use
> the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print.
>
> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for
> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before
each
> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book,
*Clarice
> Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like
this:
> "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much
anymore
> and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly
> mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up
> sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play
soccer,
> but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."
>
> I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest
place to
> find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't
searched
> methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both
> fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
>
> I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become
one of
> those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to
in
> order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until
they're
> ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are
effective
> or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a
better
> rule.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:18:30 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Cynthia Baird <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Hey, Herb! I have not responded to the ATEG list for quite some time because I have been busy with a new teaching position. I really miss reading and responding to everyone's posts.
However, I noticed this post because it relates to much of what a high school English teacher does--instruct in correct punctuation of sentences to achieve clear communication.
Herb, are you suggesting that we (high school teachers) not correct a sentence that really contains a comma splice? Although I agree with you that the writer has expressed him or herself in your example sentence, I think that the writer could easily be instructed how to separate these clauses without interfering with his or her expression. Is it wrong to instruct writers to consider the reader's confusion and to punctuate and add conjunctions in such a way to eliminate reader confusion? Isn't that the basis of punctuation, anyway? Certainly many commas are unnecessary because no reader confusion exists, but to allow writers to carry on without regard to punctuation, coordination, or subordination seems to me to condone their confused writing. I teach students to always keep in mind their readers or listeners. Do I dare tell students that punctuation is arbitrary?
as always, thanks to all of you who post and respond!
"STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on this question. The
problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the perspective of
teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on any consistent
theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion of cultural
practices that have gained varying degrees of acceptance in different
parts of the world and of English speaking cultures. Run-on sentences
and comma splices frequently represent cases where the spoken language
expresses relationships between clauses that the written language, with,
for example, its lack of intonation and stress contrast, cannot
distinguish. Turabian correctly recognizes that not all coordinate
clauses are the same and that punctuation practice can vary. Compare
the following sentences:
1. Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache.
2. Harry ate five green apples, and he got a stomach ache.
In (1) there is clearly a connection between the two events, the first
preceding and causing the second. (2), on the other hand, suggests that
both things took place but that we should not assume a relationship
between them. In speech, this contrast would be distinguished by a
slight intonational rise on "apples" in (1) and falling intonation on
"apples" in (2).
This sense that the two clauses are related in ways that go beyond both
simply being asserted is at the basis of a lot of the run-ons I've seen.
Comma splices tend to be a more complicated problem, partly because
there are more grammatical factors to consider: presence or absence of
a conjunctive adverb, intonation contour, presence or absence of a
coordinating conjunction, use of a semi-colon or a comma, clausal vs.
phrasal status of the second element, etc. It's easy to state a rule
that two clauses are separated by a comma only if the second begins with
a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one of four methods must be used:
(a) put a period after the first and capitalize the first letter of the
second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use a semi-colon and a conjunctive
adverb, (d) put a period after the first and capitalize the conjunctive
adverb (some editors reject this option).
In (3), any of the standard options would work:
3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has seen a lot of accidents; therefore,
the city council ordered four-way stop signs installed.
However, in (4) the semantic relationship between the two clauses is
close enough that a writer may not want the force of the semi-colon and
may sense that a comma fits the relationship better:
4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach ache.
Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this is a
deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability. I would
certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career decisions are
to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many comma
splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say something
that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to allow.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
My observations:
1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but not
exclusively, in fiction.
2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for short,
closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under that
exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of commas
was meant to convey a more conversational tone.
3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that require
students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as to why it
can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear to avoid
clauses that might fall under the short & related exception.
I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule at first,
perhaps not until high school. Give them some time to get an intuitive
feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of clauses.
Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense.
Michael Kischner wrote:
> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma
before
> a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and
omitting
> the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly
fiction
> books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it
is
> certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels
to use
> the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print.
>
> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for
> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before
each
> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book,
*Clarice
> Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like
this:
> "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much
anymore
> and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly
> mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up
> sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play
soccer,
> but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."
>
> I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest
place to
> find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't
searched
> methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both
> fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
>
> I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become
one of
> those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to
in
> order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until
they're
> ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are
effective
> or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a
better
> rule.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:47:32 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
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Herb,
I like your post and would like to emphasize a point you may only be
implying--that a great deal of our frustration comes from a lack of
understanding of how the intonation system works. I'm reading Jane
Maher's biography of Mina Shaughnessy, so Shaughnessy's ghost may be
speaking here as well--our students are often making sensible errors,
and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That
also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they
are bringing into play. >
I would like to see the term "correct" used a lot less and replaced by
"standard" or "conventional". Our students own their own writing, or
ought to; every study seems to show the importance of that. I believe
my job is to help students be aware of conventions and standards, and
that means being honest about the arbitrary nature of some aspects of
all that. Conventions are made to be broken, but there is much to lose
when they are not understood or simply ignored. When they come to me in
college, most students don't have the base of understanding they need
to have a useful conversation about the pattens in their own writing.
The chances are pretty close to 100% that no one has talked to them
about intonation.
The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.
Writing effectively means working creatively with standard practices
(and expectations), but simply following them is never enough.
Somehow, the conversation needs to bring in the larger purposes of the
text ands the different "systems" in place to help move those purposes
along.
Intonation should be a much larger part of the ocnversation.
Craig
Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on this question. The
> problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the perspective of
> teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on any consistent
> theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion of cultural
> practices that have gained varying degrees of acceptance in different
> parts of the world and of English speaking cultures. Run-on sentences
> and comma splices frequently represent cases where the spoken language
> expresses relationships between clauses that the written language, with,
> for example, its lack of intonation and stress contrast, cannot
> distinguish. Turabian correctly recognizes that not all coordinate
> clauses are the same and that punctuation practice can vary. Compare
> the following sentences:
>
> 1. Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache.
> 2. Harry ate five green apples, and he got a stomach ache.
>
> In (1) there is clearly a connection between the two events, the first
> preceding and causing the second. (2), on the other hand, suggests that
> both things took place but that we should not assume a relationship
> between them. In speech, this contrast would be distinguished by a
> slight intonational rise on "apples" in (1) and falling intonation on
> "apples" in (2).
>
> This sense that the two clauses are related in ways that go beyond both
> simply being asserted is at the basis of a lot of the run-ons I've seen.
>
> Comma splices tend to be a more complicated problem, partly because
> there are more grammatical factors to consider: presence or absence of
> a conjunctive adverb, intonation contour, presence or absence of a
> coordinating conjunction, use of a semi-colon or a comma, clausal vs.
> phrasal status of the second element, etc. It's easy to state a rule
> that two clauses are separated by a comma only if the second begins with
> a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one of four methods must be used:
> (a) put a period after the first and capitalize the first letter of the
> second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use a semi-colon and a conjunctive
> adverb, (d) put a period after the first and capitalize the conjunctive
> adverb (some editors reject this option).
>
> In (3), any of the standard options would work:
>
> 3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has seen a lot of accidents; therefore,
> the city council ordered four-way stop signs installed.
>
> However, in (4) the semantic relationship between the two clauses is
> close enough that a writer may not want the force of the semi-colon and
> may sense that a comma fits the relationship better:
>
> 4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach ache.
>
> Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this is a
> deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability. I would
> certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career decisions are
> to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many comma
> splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say something
> that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to allow.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
>
> My observations:
>
> 1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but not
> exclusively, in fiction.
>
> 2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for short,
> closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under that
> exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of commas
> was meant to convey a more conversational tone.
>
> 3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that require
> students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as to why it
> can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear to avoid
> clauses that might fall under the short & related exception.
>
> I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule at first,
> perhaps not until high school. Give them some time to get an intuitive
> feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of clauses.
> Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense.
>
> Michael Kischner wrote:
>> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma
> before
>> a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and
> omitting
>> the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly
> fiction
>> books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it
> is
>> certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels
> to use
>> the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print.
>>
>> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for
>> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before
> each
>> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book,
> *Clarice
>> Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like
> this:
>> "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much
> anymore
>> and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly
>> mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up
>> sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play
> soccer,
>> but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."
>>
>> I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest
> place to
>> find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't
> searched
>> methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both
>> fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
>>
>> I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become
> one of
>> those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to
> in
>> order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until
> they're
>> ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are
> effective
>> or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a
> better
>> rule.
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:41:25 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
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Cynthia,
I certainly would not recommend ignoring comma splices in your students'
writing. Rather, and you hint at this, I'd take them as symptomatic of
a more pervasive problem in the student's ability to convert from spoken
to written language. Relationships that written language doesn't have
systematic ways of expressing, as intonation does in speech, which is,
of course, basic, have to be expressed in other ways. I suspect that a
lot of comma splices aren't simply mistakes; they're attempts to express
meanings that go beyond the writer's ability to manipulate written
English. Plenty of teaching opportunities there. I suspect that if
comma splices were approached in this way in teaching, students would
see that they aren't simply some arbitrary mistake they keep making but
rather are a limitation placed by the conventions of writing that they
have to learn to work around.
And what's wrong with telling students that a lot conventions they must
observe are arbitrary?
Keep in mind that I taught college English, not high school, so I'm not
exactly a serious source on high school pedagogy.
All the best!
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cynthia Baird
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 1:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
Hey, Herb! I have not responded to the ATEG list for quite some time
because I have been busy with a new teaching position. I really miss
reading and responding to everyone's posts.
However, I noticed this post because it relates to much of what a high
school English teacher does--instruct in correct punctuation of
sentences to achieve clear communication.
Herb, are you suggesting that we (high school teachers) not correct a
sentence that really contains a comma splice? Although I agree with you
that the writer has expressed him or herself in your example sentence, I
think that the writer could easily be instructed how to separate these
clauses without interfering with his or her expression. Is it wrong to
instruct writers to consider the reader's confusion and to punctuate and
add conjunctions in such a way to eliminate reader confusion? Isn't
that the basis of punctuation, anyway? Certainly many commas are
unnecessary because no reader confusion exists, but to allow writers to
carry on without regard to punctuation, coordination, or subordination
seems to me to condone their confused writing. I teach students to
always keep in mind their readers or listeners. Do I dare tell students
that punctuation is arbitrary?
as always, thanks to all of you who post and respond!
"STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on this question.
The
problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the
perspective of
teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on any
consistent
theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion of
cultural
practices that have gained varying degrees of acceptance in
different
parts of the world and of English speaking cultures. Run-on
sentences
and comma splices frequently represent cases where the spoken
language
expresses relationships between clauses that the written
language, with,
for example, its lack of intonation and stress contrast, cannot
distinguish. Turabian correctly recognizes that not all
coordinate
clauses are the same and that punctuation practice can vary.
Compare
the following sentences:
1. Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache.
2. Harry ate five green apples, and he got a stomach ache.
In (1) there is clearly a connection between the two events, the
first
preceding and causing the second. (2), on the other hand,
suggests that
both things took place but that we should not assume a
relationship
between them. In speech, this contrast would be distinguished by
a
slight intonational rise on "apples" in (1) and falling
intonation on
"apples" in (2).
This sense that the two clauses are related in ways that go
beyond both
simply being asserted is at the basis of a lot of the run-ons
I've seen.
Comma splices tend to be a more complicated problem, partly
because
there are more grammatical factors to consider: presence or
absence of
a conjunctive adverb, intonation contour, presence or absence of
a
coordinating conjunction, use of a semi-colon or a comma,
clausal vs.
phrasal status of the second element, etc. It's easy to state a
rule
that two clauses are separated by a comma only if the second
begins with
a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one of four methods must
be used:
(a) put a period after the first and capitalize the first letter
of the
second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use a semi-colon and a
conjunctive
adverb, (d) put a period after the first and capitalize the
conjunctive
adverb (some editors reject this option).
In (3), any of the standard options would work:
3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has seen a lot of accidents;
therefore,
the city council ordered four-way stop signs installed.
However, in (4) the semantic relationship between the two
clauses is
close enough that a writer may not want the force of the
semi-colon and
may sense that a comma fits the relationship better:
4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach ache.
Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this
is a
deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability.
I would
certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career
decisions are
to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many
comma
splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say
something
that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to
allow.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
My observations:
1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but
not
exclusively, in fiction.
2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for
short,
closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under
that
exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of
commas
was meant to convey a more conversational tone.
3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that
require
students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as
to why it
can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear
to avoid
clauses that might fall under the short & related exception.
I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule
at first,
perhaps not until high school. Give them some time to get an
intuitive
feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of
clauses.
Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense.
Michael Kischner wrote:
> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing
a comma
before
> a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule
and
omitting
> the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly
fiction
> books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those
books it
is
> certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those
levels
to use
> the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print.
>
> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a
workshop for
> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma
before
each
> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful
book,
*Clarice
> Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences
like
this:
> "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that
much
anymore
> and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is
utterly
> mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully
made-up
> sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to
play
soccer,
> but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."
>
> I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the
likeliest
place to
> find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't
searched
> methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place,
in both
> fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
>
> I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has
become
one of
> those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes
resort to
in
> order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp
until
they're
> ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications
are
effective
> or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd
prefer is a
better
> rule.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
it now.
Cynthia, I certainly would not recommend ignoring comma splices in your
students’ writing. Rather, and you hint at this, I’d take
them as symptomatic of a more pervasive problem in the student’s ability
to convert from spoken to written language. Relationships that written
language doesn’t have systematic ways of expressing, as intonation does
in speech, which is, of course, basic, have to be expressed in other
ways. I suspect that a lot of comma splices aren’t simply mistakes;
they’re attempts to express meanings that go beyond the writer’s
ability to manipulate written English. Plenty of teaching opportunities
there. I suspect that if comma splices were approached in this way in
teaching, students would see that they aren’t simply some arbitrary
mistake they keep making but rather are a limitation placed by the conventions
of writing that they have to learn to work around. And what’s wrong with telling students that a lot
conventions they must observe are arbitrary? Keep in mind that I taught college English, not high school, so
I’m not exactly a serious source on high school pedagogy. All the best! Herb From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cynthia
Baird Hey, Herb! I have not responded to the ATEG list for
quite some time because I have been busy with a new teaching position. I
really miss reading and responding to everyone's posts. However, I noticed this post because it relates to much of
what a high school English teacher does--instruct in correct punctuation of
sentences to achieve clear communication. Herb, are you suggesting that we (high school teachers) not
correct a sentence that really contains a comma splice? Although I agree with
you that the writer has expressed him or herself in your example sentence, I
think that the writer could easily be instructed how to separate these clauses
without interfering with his or her expression. Is it wrong to instruct
writers to consider the reader's confusion and to punctuate and add
conjunctions in such a way to eliminate reader confusion? Isn't that the
basis of punctuation, anyway? Certainly many commas are unnecessary
because no reader confusion exists, but to allow writers to carry on without
regard to punctuation, coordination, or subordination seems to me to condone
their confused writing. I teach students to always keep in mind their readers
or listeners. Do I dare tell students that punctuation is arbitrary? as always, thanks to all of you who post and respond! Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on this
question. The Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
Mobile. Try
it now. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:59:34 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
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It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel and I have been doing over the past ten years might turn out to be valuable.
>>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>>
. . . our students are often making sensible errors,
and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That
also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they
are bringing into play.
*************
If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying systems of the language" that students bring to their writing, you might want to consult the following paper:
Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on the relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, 22, 35-49.
We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that paper, we try to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the language" leads to error corrections that will not help such students improve.
Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level errors. Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47.
At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native and non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like structures (we don't like the term "error" either) are principled.
Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention of the list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read it.
There is something right about the following by Craig:
The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.
Of course, in most of the reading our students do, they rarely see such punctuation. This raises a question about where these non-standard practices come from.
A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is based only on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions based on the frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem accounting for these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if language is a series of constructions, why are students punctuation practices so deviant from most of the input they have received?
In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those principles might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. This is interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is most insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguistics. Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind. It is puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying system of language our students bring to writing but he has a commitment to a view of language that cannot address what those underlying principles are.
To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts to explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's supposition above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know.
Bob Yates
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:24:09 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
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I like Craig's observation:
"The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity."
When I taught the semi-colon as a way to fix these comma splices, I proposed
it as a three-quarter pause (with the comma being a half pause and thus a
little too wimpy for the situation and the period being a full pause).
Rather than telling kids all the time that they were wrong, I would
compliment them on their impulse to put the two sentences together, for they
were sensing the closer connection. I would tell them that the instinct
showed their growing sophistication about rhythms and relationships in their
writing. The only problem was that they were sending the boy (half-pause
comma) to do the man's job (three-quarter pause semi-colon.) I will say
that this made a big difference in the frequency of comma splices and in the
proper use of the semi-colon. Students felt good about themselves as
writers rather than put down. Sometimes when a student would go overboard
with too many semi-colons, we could then talk about just how close two
statements were. Did they warrant the three-quarter pause or did they need
their own separate spaces? And then we could go on to explore other ways of
achieving sentence variety...
Jane Saral
Atlanta
On Jan 11, 2008 10:59 AM, Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel and I have been doing over
> the past ten years might turn out to be valuable.
>
> >>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>>
> . . . our students are often making sensible errors,
> and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That
> also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they
> are bringing into play.
>
> *************
> If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying systems of
> the language" that students bring to their writing, you might want to
> consult the following paper:
>
> Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on the
> relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, 22, 35-49.
>
> We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that paper, we try
> to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the language" leads to
> error corrections that will not help such students improve.
>
> Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level errors.
> Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47.
>
> At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of
> non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native and
> non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like structures (we
> don't like the term "error" either) are principled.
>
> Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention of the
> list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read it.
>
> There is something right about the following by Craig:
>
> The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
> experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
> in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
> love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
> would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
> idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
> half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.
>
> Of course, in most of the reading our students do, they rarely see such
> punctuation. This raises a question about where these non-standard
> practices come from.
>
> A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is based only
> on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions based on the
> frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem accounting for
> these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if language is a
> series of constructions, why are students punctuation practices so deviant
> from most of the input they have received?
>
> In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those
> principles might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. This is
> interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is most
> insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguistics.
> Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind. It is
> puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying system of
> language our students bring to writing but he has a commitment to a view of
> language that cannot address what those underlying principles are.
>
> To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts to
> explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's supposition
> above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know.
>
> Bob Yates
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:03:22 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
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Jane,
That sounds like a clear and sensible approach. My college English
majors often had trouble with semi-colons too, and I did something
similar. I would explain, showing it on the board, that a semi-colon is
a comma raised by a period or a period lowered by a comma. That usually
made sense to them.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane Saral
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 1:24 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
I like Craig's observation:
"The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity."
When I taught the semi-colon as a way to fix these comma splices, I
proposed it as a three-quarter pause (with the comma being a half pause
and thus a little too wimpy for the situation and the period being a
full pause). Rather than telling kids all the time that they were
wrong, I would compliment them on their impulse to put the two sentences
together, for they were sensing the closer connection. I would tell
them that the instinct showed their growing sophistication about rhythms
and relationships in their writing. The only problem was that they were
sending the boy (half-pause comma) to do the man's job (three-quarter
pause semi-colon.) I will say that this made a big difference in the
frequency of comma splices and in the proper use of the semi-colon.
Students felt good about themselves as writers rather than put down.
Sometimes when a student would go overboard with too many semi-colons,
we could then talk about just how close two statements were. Did they
warrant the three-quarter pause or did they need their own separate
spaces? And then we could go on to explore other ways of achieving
sentence variety...
Jane Saral
Atlanta
On Jan 11, 2008 10:59 AM, Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel and I have been
doing over the past ten years might turn out to be valuable.
>>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>>
. . . our students are often making sensible errors,
and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their
mindset. That
also means respecting the underlying systems of the language
that they
are bringing into play.
*************
If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying
systems of the language" that students bring to their writing, you might
want to consult the following paper:
Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on
the relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing,
22, 35-49.
We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that
paper, we try to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the
language" leads to error corrections that will not help such students
improve.
Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level
errors. Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47.
At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number
of non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native
and non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like
structures (we don't like the term "error" either) are principled.
Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the
attention of the list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he
has read it.
There is something right about the following by Craig:
The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in
my
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the
first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed
to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern,
which I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only
one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern,
maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.
Of course, in most of the reading our students do, they rarely
see such punctuation. This raises a question about where these
non-standard practices come from.
A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is
based only on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions
based on the frequency of those constructions in the input) has a
problem accounting for these non-standard punctuation practices. After
all, if language is a series of constructions, why are students
punctuation practices so deviant from most of the input they have
received?
In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those
principles might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right.
This is interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is
most insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional
Linguistics. Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the
mind. It is puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the
underlying system of language our students bring to writing but he has a
commitment to a view of language that cannot address what those
underlying principles are.
To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that
attempts to explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles.
Craig's supposition above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I
know.
Bob Yates
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"Join or leave the list"
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C85484.AB9CE8C1
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Jane, That sounds like a clear and sensible approach. My college English
majors often had trouble with semi-colons too, and I did something similar. I
would explain, showing it on the board, that a semi-colon is a comma raised by
a period or a period lowered by a comma. That usually made sense to them. Herb From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane
Saral I like Craig's observation: "The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas
splice, in my When I taught the semi-colon as a way to fix these comma
splices, I proposed it as a three-quarter pause (with the comma being a half
pause and thus a little too wimpy for the situation and the period being a full
pause). Rather than telling kids all the time that they were wrong,
I would compliment them on their impulse to put the two sentences together, for
they were sensing the closer connection. I would tell them
that the instinct showed their growing sophistication about rhythms and
relationships in their writing. The only problem was that they were
sending the boy (half-pause comma) to do the man's job (three-quarter pause
semi-colon.) I will say that this made a big difference in the frequency
of comma splices and in the proper use of the semi-colon. Students
felt good about themselves as writers rather than put down. Sometimes when a
student would go overboard with too many semi-colons, we could then talk about
just how close two statements were. Did they warrant the three-quarter
pause or did they need their own separate spaces? And then we could
go on to explore other ways of achieving sentence variety... Jane Saral Atlanta On Jan 11, 2008 10:59 AM, Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> wrote: It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel and I
have been doing over the past ten years might turn out to be valuable. and it's hard to
"correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That ************* Of course, in most of the reading our students do, they
rarely see such punctuation. This raises a question about where these
non-standard practices come from. Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C85484.AB9CE8C1--
========================================================================Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:55:33 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-version: 1.0
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> Craig,
Where did you get the idea that in Britain we don't put commas before
conjunctions in compound sentences? We adopt the FANBOYS rule all right
(unless your speaker was gabbling at high speed -- or was Dickens' Mrs.
Lirriper or Joyce's Molly Bloom!). As you say, we do largely omit the comma
before the conjunction in a list of nouns or verbs, etc., though that is not
absolute -- for there are occasions where the comma emphasizes distinctness
for some reason: for example, I kept this so-called 'Oxford' comma in the
title of my recent book 'Narrative, Perception, Language, and Faith' because
the appearance in the argument of the topic of faith is intended to be
something of a surprise.
Edmond
Dr. Edmond Wright
3 Boathouse Court
Trafalgar Road
Cambridge
CB4 1DU
England
Email: [log in to unmask]
Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
Just to complicate the talk (after all these votes for simplicity),
> British practice differs from American on this one. They don't ask for
> commas here (before the conjunction linking compound sentences) or
> before the final element in a series (with "and" or "or".) >
> What you would hope for, I think, is consistency, not just a sporadic
> sprinkling. If the comma is included or left out DELIBERATELY and
> consistently, then I don't think we should command otherwise.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:14:37 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
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Bob,
You and I share a great respect for Mina Shaughnessy and certainly the
notion that non-standard practices are often very sensible is at the
heart of it. In some of her articles, she talked about the kinds of
changes that teachers need to undergo before they can be helpful to
students who seem very much different from ourselves. (See for example
"Open Admissions and the Disadvantaqed Teacher" (College composition
and communication, dec. 73) or "Diving In, An Introduction to Basic
Writing (CCC October '76.) The seminal text, of course, is Errors and
Expectations (Oxford, '77.) I know you know her work, so this is mostly
a heads-up to anyone unfamiliar with it. I'm happy we share an
appreciation for her work and that you are doing your best to extend
it. >
I'm a little baffled by your other comments. I don't think the
intonation system is innate. Halliday has written a great deal about
intonation, and his book, Intonation in the Grammar of English, is due
out shortly from Equinox. (I'm told it is getting "finishing
touches.") Much of the exposure from language is from speech rather
than writing, and it should certainly come as no surprise that
patterns from speech should find their way into writing, whether
innate or acquired or both.
We don't acquire language simply from exposure. The mechanisms are more
complex than that.
Craig
It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel and I have been doing over
> the past ten years might turn out to be valuable.
>
>>>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>>
> . . . our students are often making sensible errors,
> and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That
> also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they
> are bringing into play.
>
> *************
> If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying systems of
> the language" that students bring to their writing, you might want to
> consult the following paper:
>
> Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on the
> relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, 22,
> 35-49.
>
> We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that paper, we try
> to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the language" leads
> to error corrections that will not help such students improve.
>
> Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level errors.
> Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47.
>
> At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of
> non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native and
> non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like structures (we
> don't like the term "error" either) are principled.
>
> Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention of the
> list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read it.
>
> There is something right about the following by Craig:
>
> The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
> experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
> in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
> love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
> would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
> idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
> half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.
>
> Of course, in most of the reading our students do, they rarely see such
> punctuation. This raises a question about where these non-standard
> practices come from.
>
> A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is based only
> on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions based on the
> frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem accounting
> for these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if language is a
> series of constructions, why are students punctuation practices so deviant
> from most of the input they have received?
>
> In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those
> principles might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. This
> is interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is most
> insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguistics.
> Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind. It is
> puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying system of
> language our students bring to writing but he has a commitment to a view
> of language that cannot address what those underlying principles are.
>
> To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts to
> explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's supposition
> above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know.
>
> Bob Yates
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:54:26 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Edmond,
I have a British publisher (Equinox) for my book, Meaning-Centered
Grammar. Believe it or not, the copy editor took all those commas out
(hundreds, maybe thousands over the course of the whole book), and did
this despite the fact that I advocate their use in my chapter on
grammar and writing. I was told at the time that he was following
British practice. When I objected, I won the argument, and they were
dutifully put back in. Perhaps I was misled?
It may be the systems that we get used to come to seem the most
functional, perhaps because we find ways to defy expectations
purposefully. If the final series comma is expected, then we can make a
point by leaving it out, as in "peanut butter and jelly" or "down and
out", which are often one thing rather than two.
Is your book as interesting as its title?
Craig
>> Craig,
>
> Where did you get the idea that in Britain we don't put commas before
> conjunctions in compound sentences? We adopt the FANBOYS rule all right
> (unless your speaker was gabbling at high speed -- or was Dickens' Mrs.
> Lirriper or Joyce's Molly Bloom!). As you say, we do largely omit the
> comma
> before the conjunction in a list of nouns or verbs, etc., though that is
> not
> absolute -- for there are occasions where the comma emphasizes
> distinctness
> for some reason: for example, I kept this so-called 'Oxford' comma in the
> title of my recent book 'Narrative, Perception, Language, and Faith'
> because
> the appearance in the argument of the topic of faith is intended to be
> something of a surprise.
>
> Edmond
>
>
> Dr. Edmond Wright
> 3 Boathouse Court
> Trafalgar Road
> Cambridge
> CB4 1DU
> England
>
> Email: [log in to unmask]
> Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
> Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Just to complicate the talk (after all these votes for simplicity),
>> British practice differs from American on this one. They don't ask for
>> commas here (before the conjunction linking compound sentences) or
>> before the final element in a series (with "and" or "or".) >
>> What you would hope for, I think, is consistency, not just a
>> sporadic
>> sprinkling. If the comma is included or left out DELIBERATELY and
>> consistently, then I don't think we should command otherwise.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:16:47 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-version: 1.0
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> Craig,
I don't know where your British copy-editor got that extraordinary idea that
we don't use the comma in compound sentences. Perhaps it is one sad result
of the disappearance of all things linguistic from our English syllabuses --
the result of the great neo-romantic banishment of grammar in the sixties
and onwards. I have the commas for that purpose all over my book, as well
as a crop of semicolons and colons, and my copy-editor was perfectly happy
with them all.
You ask about my book -- that is a distinct temptation to send you, and
presumably (brazenly) everyone else! -- the advertisement for it and what
the cover looks like, but I don't think ATEG accepts attachments. I'll send
them separately directly to you.
Edmond
Edmond,
> I have a British publisher (Equinox) for my book, Meaning-Centered
> Grammar. Believe it or not, the copy editor took all those commas out
> (hundreds, maybe thousands over the course of the whole book), and did
> this despite the fact that I advocate their use in my chapter on
> grammar and writing. I was told at the time that he was following
> British practice. When I objected, I won the argument, and they were
> dutifully put back in. Perhaps I was misled?
> It may be the systems that we get used to come to seem the most
> functional, perhaps because we find ways to defy expectations
> purposefully. If the final series comma is expected, then we can make a
> point by leaving it out, as in "peanut butter and jelly" or "down and
> out", which are often one thing rather than two.
> Is your book as interesting as its title?
>
> Craig
>
>
>
>
>
>>> Craig,
>>
>> Where did you get the idea that in Britain we don't put commas before
>> conjunctions in compound sentences? We adopt the FANBOYS rule all right
>> (unless your speaker was gabbling at high speed -- or was Dickens' Mrs.
>> Lirriper or Joyce's Molly Bloom!). As you say, we do largely omit the
>> comma
>> before the conjunction in a list of nouns or verbs, etc., though that is
>> not
>> absolute -- for there are occasions where the comma emphasizes
>> distinctness
>> for some reason: for example, I kept this so-called 'Oxford' comma in the
>> title of my recent book 'Narrative, Perception, Language, and Faith'
>> because
>> the appearance in the argument of the topic of faith is intended to be
>> something of a surprise.
>>
>> Edmond
>>
>>
>> Dr. Edmond Wright
>> 3 Boathouse Court
>> Trafalgar Road
>> Cambridge
>> CB4 1DU
>> England
>>
>> Email: [log in to unmask]
>> Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
>> Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Just to complicate the talk (after all these votes for simplicity),
>>> British practice differs from American on this one. They don't ask for
>>> commas here (before the conjunction linking compound sentences) or
>>> before the final element in a series (with "and" or "or".) >
>>> What you would hope for, I think, is consistency, not just a
>>> sporadic
>>> sprinkling. If the comma is included or left out DELIBERATELY and
>>> consistently, then I don't think we should command otherwise.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:14:48 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Edmond,
The copy-editor, who will go unnamed here, is otherwise very thoughtful
and accomplished and trained as a linguist. It wasn't just a sporadic
change, but a purposeful and systematic one. He made other suggestions
that were helpful.
I apologize for making a generalization on the basis of one source. I'm
happy to be corrected.>
From your perspective, how is the reintroduction of grammar faring? Is
there much resistance? Are the teachers prepared to embrace and teach
it?
Craig
> Craig,
>
> I don't know where your British copy-editor got that extraordinary idea
> that
> we don't use the comma in compound sentences. Perhaps it is one sad
> result
> of the disappearance of all things linguistic from our English syllabuses
> --
> the result of the great neo-romantic banishment of grammar in the sixties
> and onwards. I have the commas for that purpose all over my book, as well
> as a crop of semicolons and colons, and my copy-editor was perfectly happy
> with them all.
>
> You ask about my book -- that is a distinct temptation to send you, and
> presumably (brazenly) everyone else! -- the advertisement for it and what
> the cover looks like, but I don't think ATEG accepts attachments. I'll
> send
> them separately directly to you.
>
> Edmond
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Edmond,
>> I have a British publisher (Equinox) for my book, Meaning-Centered
>> Grammar. Believe it or not, the copy editor took all those commas out
>> (hundreds, maybe thousands over the course of the whole book), and did
>> this despite the fact that I advocate their use in my chapter on
>> grammar and writing. I was told at the time that he was following
>> British practice. When I objected, I won the argument, and they were
>> dutifully put back in. Perhaps I was misled?
>> It may be the systems that we get used to come to seem the most
>> functional, perhaps because we find ways to defy expectations
>> purposefully. If the final series comma is expected, then we can make a
>> point by leaving it out, as in "peanut butter and jelly" or "down and
>> out", which are often one thing rather than two.
>> Is your book as interesting as its title?
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Craig,
>>>
>>> Where did you get the idea that in Britain we don't put commas before
>>> conjunctions in compound sentences? We adopt the FANBOYS rule all
>>> right
>>> (unless your speaker was gabbling at high speed -- or was Dickens' Mrs.
>>> Lirriper or Joyce's Molly Bloom!). As you say, we do largely omit the
>>> comma
>>> before the conjunction in a list of nouns or verbs, etc., though that
>>> is
>>> not
>>> absolute -- for there are occasions where the comma emphasizes
>>> distinctness
>>> for some reason: for example, I kept this so-called 'Oxford' comma in
>>> the
>>> title of my recent book 'Narrative, Perception, Language, and Faith'
>>> because
>>> the appearance in the argument of the topic of faith is intended to be
>>> something of a surprise.
>>>
>>> Edmond
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr. Edmond Wright
>>> 3 Boathouse Court
>>> Trafalgar Road
>>> Cambridge
>>> CB4 1DU
>>> England
>>>
>>> Email: [log in to unmask]
>>> Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
>>> Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just to complicate the talk (after all these votes for simplicity),
>>>> British practice differs from American on this one. They don't ask for
>>>> commas here (before the conjunction linking compound sentences) or
>>>> before the final element in a series (with "and" or "or".) >
>>>> What you would hope for, I think, is consistency, not just a
>>>> sporadic
>>>> sprinkling. If the comma is included or left out DELIBERATELY and
>>>> consistently, then I don't think we should command otherwise.
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface
>>> at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 11:41:20 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 11 Jan 2008 to 12 Jan 2008 (#2008-5)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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The comma is invaluable in a list of nouns particularly (the serial
comma)to avoid the writer's having to stop to think whether the comma
is necessary for comprehension. Those who espouse the omission of any
comma before a conjunction (a common occurrence in the USA) should be
confined to a diet of mangos, chocolate and anchovy pizza pie;{)>
How can teachers be prepared to embrace and teach grammar when neither
their teachers nor their professors were acquainted with the subject.
In small-town FL, I was taught grammar beginning in grammar school and
continuing through my freshman year at MS Southern, and Advanced Grammar
was required for potential majors or minors in English. My daughter, on
the other hand, had the choice of television mysteries or science-fiction
novels because she did not like the teacher in the advanced placement
class her senior year--and grammar was reserved for AP students.
Being trained as a linguist does not necessarily help you in grammar
and usage: I have met too many 'linguists' whose knowledge began with
Chomsky and whose belief held that English 'errors' are not politically
correct.
I had four separate graduates from a superb religious preparatory
academy tell me individually that they had never understood key passages
in the Bible until they had to diagram them in my class. They thanked
me for giving them a tool that helped them to comprehend the Bible
without their having to resort to someone else's interpretation.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 12:06 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 11 Jan 2008 to 12 Jan 2008 (#2008-5)
There is 1 message totalling 155 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Commas in compound sentences
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Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:14:48 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
Edmond,
The copy-editor, who will go unnamed here, is otherwise very thoughtful
and accomplished and trained as a linguist. It wasn't just a sporadic
change, but a purposeful and systematic one. He made other suggestions
that were helpful.
I apologize for making a generalization on the basis of one source. I'm
happy to be corrected.>
From your perspective, how is the reintroduction of grammar faring? Is
there much resistance? Are the teachers prepared to embrace and teach
it?
Craig
> Craig,
>
> I don't know where your British copy-editor got that extraordinary idea
> that
> we don't use the comma in compound sentences. Perhaps it is one sad
> result
> of the disappearance of all things linguistic from our English syllabuses
> --
> the result of the great neo-romantic banishment of grammar in the sixties
> and onwards. I have the commas for that purpose all over my book, as well
> as a crop of semicolons and colons, and my copy-editor was perfectly happy
> with them all.
>
> You ask about my book -- that is a distinct temptation to send you, and
> presumably (brazenly) everyone else! -- the advertisement for it and what
> the cover looks like, but I don't think ATEG accepts attachments. I'll
> send
> them separately directly to you.
>
> Edmond
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Edmond,
>> I have a British publisher (Equinox) for my book, Meaning-Centered
>> Grammar. Believe it or not, the copy editor took all those commas out
>> (hundreds, maybe thousands over the course of the whole book), and did
>> this despite the fact that I advocate their use in my chapter on
>> grammar and writing. I was told at the time that he was following
>> British practice. When I objected, I won the argument, and they were
>> dutifully put back in. Perhaps I was misled?
>> It may be the systems that we get used to come to seem the most
>> functional, perhaps because we find ways to defy expectations
>> purposefully. If the final series comma is expected, then we can make a
>> point by leaving it out, as in "peanut butter and jelly" or "down and
>> out", which are often one thing rather than two.
>> Is your book as interesting as its title?
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Craig,
>>>
>>> Where did you get the idea that in Britain we don't put commas before
>>> conjunctions in compound sentences? We adopt the FANBOYS rule all
>>> right
>>> (unless your speaker was gabbling at high speed -- or was Dickens' Mrs.
>>> Lirriper or Joyce's Molly Bloom!). As you say, we do largely omit the
>>> comma
>>> before the conjunction in a list of nouns or verbs, etc., though that
>>> is
>>> not
>>> absolute -- for there are occasions where the comma emphasizes
>>> distinctness
>>> for some reason: for example, I kept this so-called 'Oxford' comma in
>>> the
>>> title of my recent book 'Narrative, Perception, Language, and Faith'
>>> because
>>> the appearance in the argument of the topic of faith is intended to be
>>> something of a surprise.
>>>
>>> Edmond
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr. Edmond Wright
>>> 3 Boathouse Court
>>> Trafalgar Road
>>> Cambridge
>>> CB4 1DU
>>> England
>>>
>>> Email: [log in to unmask]
>>> Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
>>> Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just to complicate the talk (after all these votes for simplicity),
>>>> British practice differs from American on this one. They don't ask for
>>>> commas here (before the conjunction linking compound sentences) or
>>>> before the final element in a series (with "and" or "or".) >
>>>> What you would hope for, I think, is consistency, not just a
>>>> sporadic
>>>> sprinkling. If the comma is included or left out DELIBERATELY and
>>>> consistently, then I don't think we should command otherwise.
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>>>
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>>>
>>
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>
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End of ATEG Digest - 11 Jan 2008 to 12 Jan 2008 (#2008-5)
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:06:14 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
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Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 10 Jan 2008 to 11 Jan 2008 (#2008-4)
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To: "'Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar'" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: ATEG Digest - 10 Jan 2008 to 11 Jan 2008 (#2008-4)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:06:14 -0500
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It's true that fiction narrated in the first person is
the most common source of punctuation omission--unless,
of course, you are Victor Borge. In teaching classes
and in giving workshops to teachers, I often include
the perhaps apocryphal ad,
"Wanted: a personal secretary. Must not be a salt-celler
dispenser of commas."
to demonstrate that unnecessary commas are as just as
unacceptable as the unnecessary omission of commas.
Correctness in English derives from a historical accretion
of cultural practices that have gained acceptance among
the educated class. In France and Spain, correctness is
determined by academies who put forth what their members
consider to be correct French or Spanish. I'll go for
the accretion--saves problems when those in power wish
to change English--the NCTE has fought to abolish the
serial comma for a half-century. So far they have not
succeeded (Thank Heaven!).
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 12:02 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 10 Jan 2008 to 11 Jan 2008 (#2008-4)
There are 10 messages totalling 2636 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Commas in compound sentences (10)
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Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:18:30 -0800
From: Cynthia Baird <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
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Hey, Herb! I have not responded to the ATEG list for quite some time
because I have been busy with a new teaching position. I really miss
reading and responding to everyone's posts.
However, I noticed this post because it relates to much of what a high
school English teacher does--instruct in correct punctuation of sentences to
achieve clear communication.
Herb, are you suggesting that we (high school teachers) not correct a
sentence that really contains a comma splice? Although I agree with you that
the writer has expressed him or herself in your example sentence, I think
that the writer could easily be instructed how to separate these clauses
without interfering with his or her expression. Is it wrong to instruct
writers to consider the reader's confusion and to punctuate and add
conjunctions in such a way to eliminate reader confusion? Isn't that the
basis of punctuation, anyway? Certainly many commas are unnecessary because
no reader confusion exists, but to allow writers to carry on without regard
to punctuation, coordination, or subordination seems to me to condone their
confused writing. I teach students to always keep in mind their readers or
listeners. Do I dare tell students that punctuation is arbitrary?
as always, thanks to all of you who post and respond!
"STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on this question. The
problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the perspective of
teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on any consistent
theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion of cultural
practices that have gained varying degrees of acceptance in different
parts of the world and of English speaking cultures. Run-on sentences
and comma splices frequently represent cases where the spoken language
expresses relationships between clauses that the written language, with,
for example, its lack of intonation and stress contrast, cannot
distinguish. Turabian correctly recognizes that not all coordinate
clauses are the same and that punctuation practice can vary. Compare
the following sentences:
1. Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache.
2. Harry ate five green apples, and he got a stomach ache.
In (1) there is clearly a connection between the two events, the first
preceding and causing the second. (2), on the other hand, suggests that
both things took place but that we should not assume a relationship
between them. In speech, this contrast would be distinguished by a
slight intonational rise on "apples" in (1) and falling intonation on
"apples" in (2).
This sense that the two clauses are related in ways that go beyond both
simply being asserted is at the basis of a lot of the run-ons I've seen.
Comma splices tend to be a more complicated problem, partly because
there are more grammatical factors to consider: presence or absence of
a conjunctive adverb, intonation contour, presence or absence of a
coordinating conjunction, use of a semi-colon or a comma, clausal vs.
phrasal status of the second element, etc. It's easy to state a rule
that two clauses are separated by a comma only if the second begins with
a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one of four methods must be used:
(a) put a period after the first and capitalize the first letter of the
second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use a semi-colon and a conjunctive
adverb, (d) put a period after the first and capitalize the conjunctive
adverb (some editors reject this option).
In (3), any of the standard options would work:
3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has seen a lot of accidents; therefore,
the city council ordered four-way stop signs installed.
However, in (4) the semantic relationship between the two clauses is
close enough that a writer may not want the force of the semi-colon and
may sense that a comma fits the relationship better:
4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach ache.
Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this is a
deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability. I would
certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career decisions are
to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many comma
splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say something
that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to allow.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
My observations:
1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but not
exclusively, in fiction.
2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for short,
closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under that
exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of commas
was meant to convey a more conversational tone.
3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that require
students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as to why it
can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear to avoid
clauses that might fall under the short & related exception.
I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule at first,
perhaps not until high school. Give them some time to get an intuitive
feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of clauses.
Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense.
Michael Kischner wrote:
> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma
before
> a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and
omitting
> the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly
fiction
> books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it
is
> certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels
to use
> the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print.
>
> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for
> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before
each
> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book,
*Clarice
> Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like
this:
> "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much
anymore
> and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly
> mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up
> sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play
soccer,
> but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."
>
> I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest
place to
> find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't
searched
> methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both
> fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
>
> I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become
one of
> those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to
in
> order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until
they're
> ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are
effective
> or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a
better
> rule.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:47:32 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
Herb,
I like your post and would like to emphasize a point you may only be
implying--that a great deal of our frustration comes from a lack of
understanding of how the intonation system works. I'm reading Jane
Maher's biography of Mina Shaughnessy, so Shaughnessy's ghost may be
speaking here as well--our students are often making sensible errors,
and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That
also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they
are bringing into play. >
I would like to see the term "correct" used a lot less and replaced by
"standard" or "conventional". Our students own their own writing, or
ought to; every study seems to show the importance of that. I believe
my job is to help students be aware of conventions and standards, and
that means being honest about the arbitrary nature of some aspects of
all that. Conventions are made to be broken, but there is much to lose
when they are not understood or simply ignored. When they come to me in
college, most students don't have the base of understanding they need
to have a useful conversation about the pattens in their own writing.
The chances are pretty close to 100% that no one has talked to them
about intonation.
The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.
Writing effectively means working creatively with standard practices
(and expectations), but simply following them is never enough.
Somehow, the conversation needs to bring in the larger purposes of the
text ands the different "systems" in place to help move those purposes
along.
Intonation should be a much larger part of the ocnversation.
Craig
Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on this question. The
> problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the perspective of
> teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on any consistent
> theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion of cultural
> practices that have gained varying degrees of acceptance in different
> parts of the world and of English speaking cultures. Run-on sentences
> and comma splices frequently represent cases where the spoken language
> expresses relationships between clauses that the written language, with,
> for example, its lack of intonation and stress contrast, cannot
> distinguish. Turabian correctly recognizes that not all coordinate
> clauses are the same and that punctuation practice can vary. Compare
> the following sentences:
>
> 1. Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache.
> 2. Harry ate five green apples, and he got a stomach ache.
>
> In (1) there is clearly a connection between the two events, the first
> preceding and causing the second. (2), on the other hand, suggests that
> both things took place but that we should not assume a relationship
> between them. In speech, this contrast would be distinguished by a
> slight intonational rise on "apples" in (1) and falling intonation on
> "apples" in (2).
>
> This sense that the two clauses are related in ways that go beyond both
> simply being asserted is at the basis of a lot of the run-ons I've seen.
>
> Comma splices tend to be a more complicated problem, partly because
> there are more grammatical factors to consider: presence or absence of
> a conjunctive adverb, intonation contour, presence or absence of a
> coordinating conjunction, use of a semi-colon or a comma, clausal vs.
> phrasal status of the second element, etc. It's easy to state a rule
> that two clauses are separated by a comma only if the second begins with
> a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one of four methods must be used:
> (a) put a period after the first and capitalize the first letter of the
> second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use a semi-colon and a conjunctive
> adverb, (d) put a period after the first and capitalize the conjunctive
> adverb (some editors reject this option).
>
> In (3), any of the standard options would work:
>
> 3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has seen a lot of accidents; therefore,
> the city council ordered four-way stop signs installed.
>
> However, in (4) the semantic relationship between the two clauses is
> close enough that a writer may not want the force of the semi-colon and
> may sense that a comma fits the relationship better:
>
> 4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach ache.
>
> Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this is a
> deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability. I would
> certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career decisions are
> to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many comma
> splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say something
> that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to allow.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
>
> My observations:
>
> 1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but not
> exclusively, in fiction.
>
> 2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for short,
> closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under that
> exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of commas
> was meant to convey a more conversational tone.
>
> 3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that require
> students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as to why it
> can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear to avoid
> clauses that might fall under the short & related exception.
>
> I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule at first,
> perhaps not until high school. Give them some time to get an intuitive
> feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of clauses.
> Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense.
>
> Michael Kischner wrote:
>> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma
> before
>> a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and
> omitting
>> the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly
> fiction
>> books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it
> is
>> certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels
> to use
>> the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print.
>>
>> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for
>> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before
> each
>> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book,
> *Clarice
>> Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like
> this:
>> "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much
> anymore
>> and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly
>> mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up
>> sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play
> soccer,
>> but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."
>>
>> I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest
> place to
>> find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't
> searched
>> methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both
>> fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
>>
>> I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become
> one of
>> those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to
> in
>> order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until
> they're
>> ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are
> effective
>> or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a
> better
>> rule.
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:41:25 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
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Cynthia,
I certainly would not recommend ignoring comma splices in your students'
writing. Rather, and you hint at this, I'd take them as symptomatic of
a more pervasive problem in the student's ability to convert from spoken
to written language. Relationships that written language doesn't have
systematic ways of expressing, as intonation does in speech, which is,
of course, basic, have to be expressed in other ways. I suspect that a
lot of comma splices aren't simply mistakes; they're attempts to express
meanings that go beyond the writer's ability to manipulate written
English. Plenty of teaching opportunities there. I suspect that if
comma splices were approached in this way in teaching, students would
see that they aren't simply some arbitrary mistake they keep making but
rather are a limitation placed by the conventions of writing that they
have to learn to work around.
And what's wrong with telling students that a lot conventions they must
observe are arbitrary?
Keep in mind that I taught college English, not high school, so I'm not
exactly a serious source on high school pedagogy.
All the best!
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cynthia Baird
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 1:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
Hey, Herb! I have not responded to the ATEG list for quite some time
because I have been busy with a new teaching position. I really miss
reading and responding to everyone's posts.
However, I noticed this post because it relates to much of what a high
school English teacher does--instruct in correct punctuation of
sentences to achieve clear communication.
Herb, are you suggesting that we (high school teachers) not correct a
sentence that really contains a comma splice? Although I agree with you
that the writer has expressed him or herself in your example sentence, I
think that the writer could easily be instructed how to separate these
clauses without interfering with his or her expression. Is it wrong to
instruct writers to consider the reader's confusion and to punctuate and
add conjunctions in such a way to eliminate reader confusion? Isn't
that the basis of punctuation, anyway? Certainly many commas are
unnecessary because no reader confusion exists, but to allow writers to
carry on without regard to punctuation, coordination, or subordination
seems to me to condone their confused writing. I teach students to
always keep in mind their readers or listeners. Do I dare tell students
that punctuation is arbitrary?
as always, thanks to all of you who post and respond!
"STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on this question.
The
problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the
perspective of
teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on any
consistent
theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion of
cultural
practices that have gained varying degrees of acceptance in
different
parts of the world and of English speaking cultures. Run-on
sentences
and comma splices frequently represent cases where the spoken
language
expresses relationships between clauses that the written
language, with,
for example, its lack of intonation and stress contrast, cannot
distinguish. Turabian correctly recognizes that not all
coordinate
clauses are the same and that punctuation practice can vary.
Compare
the following sentences:
1. Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache.
2. Harry ate five green apples, and he got a stomach ache.
In (1) there is clearly a connection between the two events, the
first
preceding and causing the second. (2), on the other hand,
suggests that
both things took place but that we should not assume a
relationship
between them. In speech, this contrast would be distinguished by
a
slight intonational rise on "apples" in (1) and falling
intonation on
"apples" in (2).
This sense that the two clauses are related in ways that go
beyond both
simply being asserted is at the basis of a lot of the run-ons
I've seen.
Comma splices tend to be a more complicated problem, partly
because
there are more grammatical factors to consider: presence or
absence of
a conjunctive adverb, intonation contour, presence or absence of
a
coordinating conjunction, use of a semi-colon or a comma,
clausal vs.
phrasal status of the second element, etc. It's easy to state a
rule
that two clauses are separated by a comma only if the second
begins with
a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one of four methods must
be used:
(a) put a period after the first and capitalize the first letter
of the
second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use a semi-colon and a
conjunctive
adverb, (d) put a period after the first and capitalize the
conjunctive
adverb (some editors reject this option).
In (3), any of the standard options would work:
3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has seen a lot of accidents;
therefore,
the city council ordered four-way stop signs installed.
However, in (4) the semantic relationship between the two
clauses is
close enough that a writer may not want the force of the
semi-colon and
may sense that a comma fits the relationship better:
4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach ache.
Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this
is a
deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability.
I would
certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career
decisions are
to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many
comma
splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say
something
that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to
allow.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
My observations:
1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but
not
exclusively, in fiction.
2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for
short,
closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under
that
exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of
commas
was meant to convey a more conversational tone.
3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that
require
students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as
to why it
can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear
to avoid
clauses that might fall under the short & related exception.
I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule
at first,
perhaps not until high school. Give them some time to get an
intuitive
feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of
clauses.
Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense.
Michael Kischner wrote:
> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing
a comma
before
> a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule
and
omitting
> the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly
fiction
> books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those
books it
is
> certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those
levels
to use
> the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print.
>
> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a
workshop for
> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma
before
each
> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful
book,
*Clarice
> Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences
like
this:
> "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that
much
anymore
> and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is
utterly
> mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully
made-up
> sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to
play
soccer,
> but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."
>
> I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the
likeliest
place to
> find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't
searched
> methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place,
in both
> fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
>
> I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has
become
one of
> those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes
resort to
in
> order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp
until
they're
> ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications
are
effective
> or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd
prefer is a
better
> rule.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
it now.
Cynthia, I certainly would not recommend ignoring comma splices in your
students’ writing. Rather, and you hint at this, I’d take
them as symptomatic of a more pervasive problem in the student’s ability
to convert from spoken to written language. Relationships that written
language doesn’t have systematic ways of expressing, as intonation does
in speech, which is, of course, basic, have to be expressed in other
ways. I suspect that a lot of comma splices aren’t simply mistakes;
they’re attempts to express meanings that go beyond the writer’s
ability to manipulate written English. Plenty of teaching opportunities
there. I suspect that if comma splices were approached in this way in
teaching, students would see that they aren’t simply some arbitrary
mistake they keep making but rather are a limitation placed by the conventions
of writing that they have to learn to work around. And what’s wrong with telling students that a lot
conventions they must observe are arbitrary? Keep in mind that I taught college English, not high school, so
I’m not exactly a serious source on high school pedagogy. All the best! Herb From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cynthia
Baird Hey, Herb! I have not responded to the ATEG list for
quite some time because I have been busy with a new teaching position. I
really miss reading and responding to everyone's posts. However, I noticed this post because it relates to much of
what a high school English teacher does--instruct in correct punctuation of
sentences to achieve clear communication. Herb, are you suggesting that we (high school teachers) not
correct a sentence that really contains a comma splice? Although I agree with
you that the writer has expressed him or herself in your example sentence, I
think that the writer could easily be instructed how to separate these clauses
without interfering with his or her expression. Is it wrong to instruct
writers to consider the reader's confusion and to punctuate and add
conjunctions in such a way to eliminate reader confusion? Isn't that the
basis of punctuation, anyway? Certainly many commas are unnecessary
because no reader confusion exists, but to allow writers to carry on without
regard to punctuation, coordination, or subordination seems to me to condone
their confused writing. I teach students to always keep in mind their readers
or listeners. Do I dare tell students that punctuation is arbitrary? as always, thanks to all of you who post and respond! Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on this
question. The Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
Mobile. Try
it now. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:59:34 -0600
From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel and I have been doing over the past ten years might turn out to be valuable.
>>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>>
. . . our students are often making sensible errors,
and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That
also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they
are bringing into play.
*************
If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying systems of the language" that students bring to their writing, you might want to consult the following paper:
Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on the relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, 22, 35-49.
We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that paper, we try to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the language" leads to error corrections that will not help such students improve.
Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level errors. Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47.
At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native and non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like structures (we don't like the term "error" either) are principled.
Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention of the list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read it.
There is something right about the following by Craig:
The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.
Of course, in most of the reading our students do, they rarely see such punctuation. This raises a question about where these non-standard practices come from.
A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is based only on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions based on the frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem accounting for these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if language is a series of constructions, why are students punctuation practices so deviant from most of the input they have received?
In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those principles might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. This is interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is most insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguistics. Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind. It is puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying system of language our students bring to writing but he has a commitment to a view of language that cannot address what those underlying principles are.
To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts to explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's supposition above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know.
Bob Yates
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:24:09 -0500
From: Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
------=_Part_1723_5655121.1200075849495
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I like Craig's observation:
"The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity."
When I taught the semi-colon as a way to fix these comma splices, I proposed
it as a three-quarter pause (with the comma being a half pause and thus a
little too wimpy for the situation and the period being a full pause).
Rather than telling kids all the time that they were wrong, I would
compliment them on their impulse to put the two sentences together, for they
were sensing the closer connection. I would tell them that the instinct
showed their growing sophistication about rhythms and relationships in their
writing. The only problem was that they were sending the boy (half-pause
comma) to do the man's job (three-quarter pause semi-colon.) I will say
that this made a big difference in the frequency of comma splices and in the
proper use of the semi-colon. Students felt good about themselves as
writers rather than put down. Sometimes when a student would go overboard
with too many semi-colons, we could then talk about just how close two
statements were. Did they warrant the three-quarter pause or did they need
their own separate spaces? And then we could go on to explore other ways of
achieving sentence variety...
Jane Saral
Atlanta
On Jan 11, 2008 10:59 AM, Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel and I have been doing over
> the past ten years might turn out to be valuable.
>
> >>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>>
> . . . our students are often making sensible errors,
> and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That
> also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they
> are bringing into play.
>
> *************
> If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying systems of
> the language" that students bring to their writing, you might want to
> consult the following paper:
>
> Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on the
> relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, 22,
35-49.
>
> We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that paper, we try
> to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the language" leads
to
> error corrections that will not help such students improve.
>
> Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level errors.
> Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47.
>
> At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of
> non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native and
> non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like structures (we
> don't like the term "error" either) are principled.
>
> Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention of the
> list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read it.
>
> There is something right about the following by Craig:
>
> The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
> experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
> in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
> love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
> would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
> idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
> half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.
>
> Of course, in most of the reading our students do, they rarely see such
> punctuation. This raises a question about where these non-standard
> practices come from.
>
> A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is based only
> on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions based on the
> frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem accounting
for
> these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if language is a
> series of constructions, why are students punctuation practices so deviant
> from most of the input they have received?
>
> In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those
> principles might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. This
is
> interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is most
> insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguistics.
> Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind. It is
> puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying system of
> language our students bring to writing but he has a commitment to a view
of
> language that cannot address what those underlying principles are.
>
> To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts to
> explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's supposition
> above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know.
>
> Bob Yates
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:03:22 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
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Jane,
That sounds like a clear and sensible approach. My college English
majors often had trouble with semi-colons too, and I did something
similar. I would explain, showing it on the board, that a semi-colon is
a comma raised by a period or a period lowered by a comma. That usually
made sense to them.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane Saral
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 1:24 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
I like Craig's observation:
"The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity."
When I taught the semi-colon as a way to fix these comma splices, I
proposed it as a three-quarter pause (with the comma being a half pause
and thus a little too wimpy for the situation and the period being a
full pause). Rather than telling kids all the time that they were
wrong, I would compliment them on their impulse to put the two sentences
together, for they were sensing the closer connection. I would tell
them that the instinct showed their growing sophistication about rhythms
and relationships in their writing. The only problem was that they were
sending the boy (half-pause comma) to do the man's job (three-quarter
pause semi-colon.) I will say that this made a big difference in the
frequency of comma splices and in the proper use of the semi-colon.
Students felt good about themselves as writers rather than put down.
Sometimes when a student would go overboard with too many semi-colons,
we could then talk about just how close two statements were. Did they
warrant the three-quarter pause or did they need their own separate
spaces? And then we could go on to explore other ways of achieving
sentence variety...
Jane Saral
Atlanta
On Jan 11, 2008 10:59 AM, Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel and I have been
doing over the past ten years might turn out to be valuable.
>>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>>
. . . our students are often making sensible errors,
and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their
mindset. That
also means respecting the underlying systems of the language
that they
are bringing into play.
*************
If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying
systems of the language" that students bring to their writing, you might
want to consult the following paper:
Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on
the relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing,
22, 35-49.
We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that
paper, we try to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the
language" leads to error corrections that will not help such students
improve.
Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level
errors. Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47.
At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number
of non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native
and non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like
structures (we don't like the term "error" either) are principled.
Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the
attention of the list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he
has read it.
There is something right about the following by Craig:
The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in
my
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the
first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed
to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern,
which I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only
one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern,
maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.
Of course, in most of the reading our students do, they rarely
see such punctuation. This raises a question about where these
non-standard practices come from.
A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is
based only on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions
based on the frequency of those constructions in the input) has a
problem accounting for these non-standard punctuation practices. After
all, if language is a series of constructions, why are students
punctuation practices so deviant from most of the input they have
received?
In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those
principles might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right.
This is interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is
most insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional
Linguistics. Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the
mind. It is puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the
underlying system of language our students bring to writing but he has a
commitment to a view of language that cannot address what those
underlying principles are.
To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that
attempts to explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles.
Craig's supposition above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I
know.
Bob Yates
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Jane, That sounds like a clear and sensible approach. My college English
majors often had trouble with semi-colons too, and I did something similar. I
would explain, showing it on the board, that a semi-colon is a comma raised by
a period or a period lowered by a comma. That usually made sense to them. Herb From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane
Saral I like Craig's observation: "The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas
splice, in my When I taught the semi-colon as a way to fix these comma
splices, I proposed it as a three-quarter pause (with the comma being a half
pause and thus a little too wimpy for the situation and the period being a full
pause). Rather than telling kids all the time that they were wrong,
I would compliment them on their impulse to put the two sentences together, for
they were sensing the closer connection. I would tell them
that the instinct showed their growing sophistication about rhythms and
relationships in their writing. The only problem was that they were
sending the boy (half-pause comma) to do the man's job (three-quarter pause
semi-colon.) I will say that this made a big difference in the frequency
of comma splices and in the proper use of the semi-colon. Students
felt good about themselves as writers rather than put down. Sometimes when a
student would go overboard with too many semi-colons, we could then talk about
just how close two statements were. Did they warrant the three-quarter
pause or did they need their own separate spaces? And then we could
go on to explore other ways of achieving sentence variety... Jane Saral Atlanta On Jan 11, 2008 10:59 AM, Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> wrote: It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel and I
have been doing over the past ten years might turn out to be valuable. and it's hard to
"correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That ************* Of course, in most of the reading our students do, they
rarely see such punctuation. This raises a question about where these
non-standard practices come from. Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C85484.AB9CE8C1--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:55:33 +0000
From: Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
> Craig,
Where did you get the idea that in Britain we don't put commas before
conjunctions in compound sentences? We adopt the FANBOYS rule all right
(unless your speaker was gabbling at high speed -- or was Dickens' Mrs.
Lirriper or Joyce's Molly Bloom!). As you say, we do largely omit the comma
before the conjunction in a list of nouns or verbs, etc., though that is not
absolute -- for there are occasions where the comma emphasizes distinctness
for some reason: for example, I kept this so-called 'Oxford' comma in the
title of my recent book 'Narrative, Perception, Language, and Faith' because
the appearance in the argument of the topic of faith is intended to be
something of a surprise.
Edmond
Dr. Edmond Wright
3 Boathouse Court
Trafalgar Road
Cambridge
CB4 1DU
England
Email: [log in to unmask]
Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
Just to complicate the talk (after all these votes for simplicity),
> British practice differs from American on this one. They don't ask for
> commas here (before the conjunction linking compound sentences) or
> before the final element in a series (with "and" or "or".) >
> What you would hope for, I think, is consistency, not just a sporadic
> sprinkling. If the comma is included or left out DELIBERATELY and
> consistently, then I don't think we should command otherwise.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:14:37 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
Bob,
You and I share a great respect for Mina Shaughnessy and certainly the
notion that non-standard practices are often very sensible is at the
heart of it. In some of her articles, she talked about the kinds of
changes that teachers need to undergo before they can be helpful to
students who seem very much different from ourselves. (See for example
"Open Admissions and the Disadvantaqed Teacher" (College composition
and communication, dec. 73) or "Diving In, An Introduction to Basic
Writing (CCC October '76.) The seminal text, of course, is Errors and
Expectations (Oxford, '77.) I know you know her work, so this is mostly
a heads-up to anyone unfamiliar with it. I'm happy we share an
appreciation for her work and that you are doing your best to extend
it. >
I'm a little baffled by your other comments. I don't think the
intonation system is innate. Halliday has written a great deal about
intonation, and his book, Intonation in the Grammar of English, is due
out shortly from Equinox. (I'm told it is getting "finishing
touches.") Much of the exposure from language is from speech rather
than writing, and it should certainly come as no surprise that
patterns from speech should find their way into writing, whether
innate or acquired or both.
We don't acquire language simply from exposure. The mechanisms are more
complex than that.
Craig
It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel and I have been doing over
> the past ten years might turn out to be valuable.
>
>>>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>>
> . . . our students are often making sensible errors,
> and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That
> also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they
> are bringing into play.
>
> *************
> If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying systems of
> the language" that students bring to their writing, you might want to
> consult the following paper:
>
> Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on the
> relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, 22,
> 35-49.
>
> We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that paper, we try
> to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the language" leads
> to error corrections that will not help such students improve.
>
> Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level errors.
> Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47.
>
> At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of
> non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native and
> non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like structures (we
> don't like the term "error" either) are principled.
>
> Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention of the
> list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read it.
>
> There is something right about the following by Craig:
>
> The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
> experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
> in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
> love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
> would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
> idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
> half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.
>
> Of course, in most of the reading our students do, they rarely see such
> punctuation. This raises a question about where these non-standard
> practices come from.
>
> A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is based only
> on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions based on the
> frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem accounting
> for these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if language is a
> series of constructions, why are students punctuation practices so deviant
> from most of the input they have received?
>
> In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those
> principles might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. This
> is interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is most
> insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguistics.
> Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind. It is
> puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying system of
> language our students bring to writing but he has a commitment to a view
> of language that cannot address what those underlying principles are.
>
> To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts to
> explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's supposition
> above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know.
>
> Bob Yates
>
>
>
>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:54:26 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
Edmond,
I have a British publisher (Equinox) for my book, Meaning-Centered
Grammar. Believe it or not, the copy editor took all those commas out
(hundreds, maybe thousands over the course of the whole book), and did
this despite the fact that I advocate their use in my chapter on
grammar and writing. I was told at the time that he was following
British practice. When I objected, I won the argument, and they were
dutifully put back in. Perhaps I was misled?
It may be the systems that we get used to come to seem the most
functional, perhaps because we find ways to defy expectations
purposefully. If the final series comma is expected, then we can make a
point by leaving it out, as in "peanut butter and jelly" or "down and
out", which are often one thing rather than two.
Is your book as interesting as its title?
Craig
>> Craig,
>
> Where did you get the idea that in Britain we don't put commas before
> conjunctions in compound sentences? We adopt the FANBOYS rule all right
> (unless your speaker was gabbling at high speed -- or was Dickens' Mrs.
> Lirriper or Joyce's Molly Bloom!). As you say, we do largely omit the
> comma
> before the conjunction in a list of nouns or verbs, etc., though that is
> not
> absolute -- for there are occasions where the comma emphasizes
> distinctness
> for some reason: for example, I kept this so-called 'Oxford' comma in the
> title of my recent book 'Narrative, Perception, Language, and Faith'
> because
> the appearance in the argument of the topic of faith is intended to be
> something of a surprise.
>
> Edmond
>
>
> Dr. Edmond Wright
> 3 Boathouse Court
> Trafalgar Road
> Cambridge
> CB4 1DU
> England
>
> Email: [log in to unmask]
> Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
> Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Just to complicate the talk (after all these votes for simplicity),
>> British practice differs from American on this one. They don't ask for
>> commas here (before the conjunction linking compound sentences) or
>> before the final element in a series (with "and" or "or".) >
>> What you would hope for, I think, is consistency, not just a
>> sporadic
>> sprinkling. If the comma is included or left out DELIBERATELY and
>> consistently, then I don't think we should command otherwise.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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>
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:16:47 +0000
From: Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
> Craig,
I don't know where your British copy-editor got that extraordinary idea that
we don't use the comma in compound sentences. Perhaps it is one sad result
of the disappearance of all things linguistic from our English syllabuses --
the result of the great neo-romantic banishment of grammar in the sixties
and onwards. I have the commas for that purpose all over my book, as well
as a crop of semicolons and colons, and my copy-editor was perfectly happy
with them all.
You ask about my book -- that is a distinct temptation to send you, and
presumably (brazenly) everyone else! -- the advertisement for it and what
the cover looks like, but I don't think ATEG accepts attachments. I'll send
them separately directly to you.
Edmond
Edmond,
> I have a British publisher (Equinox) for my book, Meaning-Centered
> Grammar. Believe it or not, the copy editor took all those commas out
> (hundreds, maybe thousands over the course of the whole book), and did
> this despite the fact that I advocate their use in my chapter on
> grammar and writing. I was told at the time that he was following
> British practice. When I objected, I won the argument, and they were
> dutifully put back in. Perhaps I was misled?
> It may be the systems that we get used to come to seem the most
> functional, perhaps because we find ways to defy expectations
> purposefully. If the final series comma is expected, then we can make a
> point by leaving it out, as in "peanut butter and jelly" or "down and
> out", which are often one thing rather than two.
> Is your book as interesting as its title?
>
> Craig
>
>
>
>
>
>>> Craig,
>>
>> Where did you get the idea that in Britain we don't put commas before
>> conjunctions in compound sentences? We adopt the FANBOYS rule all right
>> (unless your speaker was gabbling at high speed -- or was Dickens' Mrs.
>> Lirriper or Joyce's Molly Bloom!). As you say, we do largely omit the
>> comma
>> before the conjunction in a list of nouns or verbs, etc., though that is
>> not
>> absolute -- for there are occasions where the comma emphasizes
>> distinctness
>> for some reason: for example, I kept this so-called 'Oxford' comma in
the
>> title of my recent book 'Narrative, Perception, Language, and Faith'
>> because
>> the appearance in the argument of the topic of faith is intended to be
>> something of a surprise.
>>
>> Edmond
>>
>>
>> Dr. Edmond Wright
>> 3 Boathouse Court
>> Trafalgar Road
>> Cambridge
>> CB4 1DU
>> England
>>
>> Email: [log in to unmask]
>> Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
>> Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Just to complicate the talk (after all these votes for simplicity),
>>> British practice differs from American on this one. They don't ask for
>>> commas here (before the conjunction linking compound sentences) or
>>> before the final element in a series (with "and" or "or".) >
>>> What you would hope for, I think, is consistency, not just a
>>> sporadic
>>> sprinkling. If the comma is included or left out DELIBERATELY and
>>> consistently, then I don't think we should command otherwise.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
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End of ATEG Digest - 10 Jan 2008 to 11 Jan 2008 (#2008-4)
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:36:16 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Jan Kammert <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: tion & nouns
I teach middle school. One of the teachers in my district (not my building) said that all words that end in -tion are nouns. I never heard that before, but I thought of all the words I could that end in -tion. I think he might be right.
Then I thought maybe all words that end in just -ion are nouns. Am I right? Maybe this information will help my students, but I don't want to tell them something wrong.
If all words that end is -ion are nouns, can someone tell me why? Is there some history about those words?
Thanks!
Jan
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:25:11 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Elizabeth Clark <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
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My guess is that words ending in -tion originally came from French. I believe that most words ending in -ment are also nouns.
Elizabeth Clark
> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:36:16 +0000> From: [log in to unmask]> Subject: tion & nouns> To: [log in to unmask]> > I teach middle school. One of the teachers in my district (not my building) said that all words that end in -tion are nouns. I never heard that before, but I thought of all the words I could that end in -tion. I think he might be right.> > Then I thought maybe all words that end in just -ion are nouns. Am I right? Maybe this information will help my students, but I don't want to tell them something wrong.> > If all words that end is -ion are nouns, can someone tell me why? Is there some history about those words?> Thanks!> Jan> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and select "Join or leave the list"> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:36:16 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Subject: reply to Scott
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I think I know what you mean when you say the "omission of any comma before a conjunction" but is that what your words say? Do you put a comma before the conjunction in these sentence?
He left the store because he had finished his shopping.
He left the store and he headed home for lunch.
That's comparing apples and oranges.
I am also interested in your definition of grammar. Any definition of grammar from anyone in the group. Thanks. Dick
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I think I know what you
mean when you say the “omission of any comma before a conjunction” but is that
what your words say? Do you put a
comma before the conjunction in these sentence?
He left the store because he had finished his shopping.
He left the store and he headed home for lunch.
That’s comparing apples and oranges.
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:10:12 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: FW: ATEG Digest - 8 Jan 2008 to 10 Jan 2008 (#2008-3)
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I certainly hope that we are "up against" mass media. When I met
Edwin Newman, I asked him how he felt about being an anachronist.
When he queried my question, I explained that he was both a newsman
and literate. He laughed, but offered Saffire and Buckley as other
examples, which I rejected because they were columnists--not newsmen.
I added that there was a vicious rumor that Edwin Newman stooped so
low as to research and write his own news broadcasts--when they were
not impromptu. He stated that he did not do all of his primary research
himself but did review it critically; he admitted writing his own scripts.
In the early 60's, one could be fired from the Orlando Sentinel for errors
in grammar and spelling and reprimanded for initial errors in punctuation;
repetition could also bring termination. Once newspapers went to having the
reporters' inputting their copy directly (bypassing the proofreaders),
political correctness averred that the reporters were hired for their
ability to report, not for their grammar, punctuation, and usage. When I
began teaching, I used the Orlando Sentinel as an example of good writing;
when I was at a Mensa party in Los Angeles a couple of decades later, an
editor of the LA Times overheard my saying that I was teaching writing
skills to a predominantly Hispanic class at a business school and asked
whether I was using LA Times in my class. I replied, Absolutely! No matter
what error I am teaching them to avoid, I always have been able to find it
on the front page or editorial page of the LA Times. He them stomped away.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 12:07 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 8 Jan 2008 to 10 Jan 2008 (#2008-3)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:32:09 -0800
From: Michael Kischner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Commas in compound sentences
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I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma before
a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and omitting
the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly fiction
books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it is
certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels to use
the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print.
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:20:46 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
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Jan,
The statement isn't far from true. Etymologically, -tion is a compound
suffix, combining the Latin participial suffix -t and the Latin
nominalizing suffix -ion-. In English, which suffix a word has is
pretty much of function of that word's etymology, and there is no
difference in meaning between them.
As to whether there are verbs in -ion or -tion, there are. Three that
come to mind immediately are "fashion", "ration," and "station." Given
the ease with which English grammar shifts nouns to verbs, giving rise
even to the somewhat overstated maxim "Every noun can be verbed," I
wouldn't be surprised to find a lot more instances. "Fashion," by the
way, was borrowed from French in the 15th c. French had inherited it
from Latin "factio," genitive "factionis," and had lost the from
it's spelling before English borrowed the word. This suggests that by
the time English borrowed the word, French grammar no longer treated it
as containing a suffix. The in the English form may represent an
analogy to the spelling of other words ending in the same phonetic
syllable. That letter appears first in the 16th c. and the <-shi->
spelling doesn't appear till the 17th.
Etymology, by the way, is a tricky and precise historical discipline,
and etymology works on specific words rather than on classes of words.
The fact that -t-ion- was a productive derivation in Latin doesn't mean
that it necessarily remains so in the languages that borrow it.
Languages tend to borrow words as whole units without the morphology
they may have in the source language. So -tion and -ion forms shouldn't
be expected to behave consistently in English.
Herb
I teach middle school. One of the teachers in my district (not my
building) said that all words that end in -tion are nouns. I never
heard that before, but I thought of all the words I could that end in
-tion. I think he might be right.
Then I thought maybe all words that end in just -ion are nouns. Am I
right? Maybe this information will help my students, but I don't want
to tell them something wrong.
If all words that end is -ion are nouns, can someone tell me why? Is
there some history about those words?
Thanks!
Jan
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:39:54 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
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At 07:20 PM 1/13/2008, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote: . . .
>As to whether there are verbs in -ion or -tion, there are. Three that
>come to mind immediately are "fashion", "ration," and "station." Given
>the ease with which English grammar shifts nouns to verbs, giving rise
>even to the somewhat overstated maxim "Every noun can be verbed," . . .
DD: As a lifer military I suggest the imperative verb, "Attention."
{Pronounced something like, "Ten-hut."} As far as I know it is not
used in other verbal ways.
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:55:34 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
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DD,
Or could "Attention!" be elliptical for "Stand at attention!" as "At
ease!" is for "Stand at ease!"? The latter is still used, I believe.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of DD Farms
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 9:40 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
At 07:20 PM 1/13/2008, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote: . . .
>As to whether there are verbs in -ion or -tion, there are. Three that
>come to mind immediately are "fashion", "ration," and "station." Given
>the ease with which English grammar shifts nouns to verbs, giving rise
>even to the somewhat overstated maxim "Every noun can be verbed," . . .
DD: As a lifer military I suggest the imperative verb, "Attention."
{Pronounced something like, "Ten-hut."} As far as I know it is not
used in other verbal ways.
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 22:09:57 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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At 08:55 PM 1/13/2008, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
>DD,
>Or could "Attention!" be elliptical for "Stand at attention!" as "At
>ease!" is for "Stand at ease!"? The latter is still used, I believe.
>Herb
DD: As a command, it is used alone. The command for the second is "At
ease!" {Pronounced something like Huheez."} Of course the longer and
non-standard would be understood. Remember, "An officer's wish is a
command." Consider the order, "Rest!" It certainly is would not be
given as, "Stand at rest." Of course military language is not high standard.
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:20:57 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
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DD,
I've always been curious about the etymology of the military forms of
these various commands, which tend to replace syllable-initial
consonants with /h/ but leave syllable-final consonants relatively
untouched.
Herb
At 08:55 PM 1/13/2008, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
>DD,
>Or could "Attention!" be elliptical for "Stand at attention!" as "At
>ease!" is for "Stand at ease!"? The latter is still used, I believe.
>Herb
DD: As a command, it is used alone. The command for the second is "At
ease!" {Pronounced something like Huheez."} Of course the longer and
non-standard would be understood. Remember, "An officer's wish is a
command." Consider the order, "Rest!" It certainly is would not be
given as, "Stand at rest." Of course military language is not high
standard.
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:50:05 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Linda Comerford <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Can't words ending in -tion (or -ion) also function as adjectives like an
election poll (or like a verb as used in this sentence: function)? I'm all
for simplifying as much as possible for my students, but I've learned to be
cynical about using the words "all" or "none" regarding grammar.
Linda
Linda Comerford
317.786.6404
[log in to unmask]
www.comerfordconsulting.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jan Kammert
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 12:36 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: tion & nouns
I teach middle school. One of the teachers in my district (not my building)
said that all words that end in -tion are nouns. I never heard that before,
but I thought of all the words I could that end in -tion. I think he might
be right.
Then I thought maybe all words that end in just -ion are nouns. Am I right?
Maybe this information will help my students, but I don't want to tell them
something wrong.
If all words that end is -ion are nouns, can someone tell me why? Is there
some history about those words?
Thanks!
Jan
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:33:01 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
In-Reply-To: <000e01c85668$efd52550$4101a8c0@LindaComputer>
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Linda,
You're right that nouns can modify nouns and therefore function as
adjectives. And function is a nice instance of a verb in -tion.
English borrowed "function" from French as a noun in the late 16th c.
It's verb use doesn't appear until 1856.
And your cynicism is well founded.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda Comerford
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 11:50 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
Can't words ending in -tion (or -ion) also function as adjectives like
an
election poll (or like a verb as used in this sentence: function)? I'm
all
for simplifying as much as possible for my students, but I've learned to
be
cynical about using the words "all" or "none" regarding grammar.
Linda
Linda Comerford
317.786.6404
[log in to unmask]
www.comerfordconsulting.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jan Kammert
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 12:36 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: tion & nouns
I teach middle school. One of the teachers in my district (not my
building)
said that all words that end in -tion are nouns. I never heard that
before,
but I thought of all the words I could that end in -tion. I think he
might
be right.
Then I thought maybe all words that end in just -ion are nouns. Am I
right?
Maybe this information will help my students, but I don't want to tell
them
something wrong.
If all words that end is -ion are nouns, can someone tell me why? Is
there
some history about those words?
Thanks!
Jan
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:51:11 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
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>>
Edmond,
Martha and I have been in conversation with Terry Locke, from New
Zealand, editor of an international anthology that will include an
article Martha and I co-authored and are now revising. He directed me
to a British government site that would back up the position that
current British practices do not call for a comma before a
conjunction linking independent clauses.
www.standards.dfes.gov.uk/primary/profdev/literacy and then click on
“grammar knowledge for teachers” and then “punctuation” and then
“comma”.
They call for commas to separate items in a list (though not usually
before “and”), after introductory subordinate clauses (no comment on
phrases), with most connecting adverbs (like “however” ) and to set off
“extra information” (the example they give is a nonrestrictive
appositional noun phrase—“Jill, my boss,…”) In a paragraph focused on
the “comma splice”, they include a clear compound sentence without the
comma: “She turned round but there was no one there except a painting.”
I have much respect for your own experience, so I wonder if this is a
generational shift in standards (with older practices still accepted?)
Craig
Craig,
>
> I don't know where your British copy-editor got that extraordinary idea
> that
> we don't use the comma in compound sentences. Perhaps it is one sad
> result
> of the disappearance of all things linguistic from our English syllabuses
> --
> the result of the great neo-romantic banishment of grammar in the sixties
> and onwards. I have the commas for that purpose all over my book, as well
> as a crop of semicolons and colons, and my copy-editor was perfectly happy
> with them all.
>
> You ask about my book -- that is a distinct temptation to send you, and
> presumably (brazenly) everyone else! -- the advertisement for it and what
> the cover looks like, but I don't think ATEG accepts attachments. I'll
> send
> them separately directly to you.
>
> Edmond
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Edmond,
>> I have a British publisher (Equinox) for my book, Meaning-Centered
>> Grammar. Believe it or not, the copy editor took all those commas out
>> (hundreds, maybe thousands over the course of the whole book), and did
>> this despite the fact that I advocate their use in my chapter on
>> grammar and writing. I was told at the time that he was following
>> British practice. When I objected, I won the argument, and they were
>> dutifully put back in. Perhaps I was misled?
>> It may be the systems that we get used to come to seem the most
>> functional, perhaps because we find ways to defy expectations
>> purposefully. If the final series comma is expected, then we can make a
>> point by leaving it out, as in "peanut butter and jelly" or "down and
>> out", which are often one thing rather than two.
>> Is your book as interesting as its title?
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Craig,
>>>
>>> Where did you get the idea that in Britain we don't put commas before
>>> conjunctions in compound sentences? We adopt the FANBOYS rule all
>>> right
>>> (unless your speaker was gabbling at high speed -- or was Dickens' Mrs.
>>> Lirriper or Joyce's Molly Bloom!). As you say, we do largely omit the
>>> comma
>>> before the conjunction in a list of nouns or verbs, etc., though that
>>> is
>>> not
>>> absolute -- for there are occasions where the comma emphasizes
>>> distinctness
>>> for some reason: for example, I kept this so-called 'Oxford' comma in
>>> the
>>> title of my recent book 'Narrative, Perception, Language, and Faith'
>>> because
>>> the appearance in the argument of the topic of faith is intended to be
>>> something of a surprise.
>>>
>>> Edmond
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr. Edmond Wright
>>> 3 Boathouse Court
>>> Trafalgar Road
>>> Cambridge
>>> CB4 1DU
>>> England
>>>
>>> Email: [log in to unmask]
>>> Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
>>> Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just to complicate the talk (after all these votes for simplicity),
>>>> British practice differs from American on this one. They don't ask for
>>>> commas here (before the conjunction linking compound sentences) or
>>>> before the final element in a series (with "and" or "or".) >
>>>> What you would hope for, I think, is consistency, not just a
>>>> sporadic
>>>> sprinkling. If the comma is included or left out DELIBERATELY and
>>>> consistently, then I don't think we should command otherwise.
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface
>>> at:
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>>>
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>>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
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>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
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>
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:17:23 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: rbetting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
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Herb,
Comments on noun functions. Does calling nouns used this way adjective make
sense to students? Our linguistic system likes to be able to manipulate form
words into other parts of speech, nouns to verbs and so on. One choice that
appears to be handy is our use of nouns as modifiers, as in "the stocking
committee planning chart" or "a fan belt compression fitting design plan."
So we might hear of a "site plan coordination effort currently underway." I
just read about the " 2007 Devils Lake operation summary report document."
How's this: "The linear realignment task force control system planning
session." That could apply to grammar study.
----- Original Message -----
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
Linda,
You're right that nouns can modify nouns and therefore function as
adjectives. And function is a nice instance of a verb in -tion.
English borrowed "function" from French as a noun in the late 16th c.
It's verb use doesn't appear until 1856.
And your cynicism is well founded.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda Comerford
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 11:50 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
Can't words ending in -tion (or -ion) also function as adjectives like
an
election poll (or like a verb as used in this sentence: function)? I'm
all
for simplifying as much as possible for my students, but I've learned to
be
cynical about using the words "all" or "none" regarding grammar.
Linda
Linda Comerford
317.786.6404
[log in to unmask]
www.comerfordconsulting.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jan Kammert
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 12:36 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: tion & nouns
I teach middle school. One of the teachers in my district (not my
building)
said that all words that end in -tion are nouns. I never heard that
before,
but I thought of all the words I could that end in -tion. I think he
might
be right.
Then I thought maybe all words that end in just -ion are nouns. Am I
right?
Maybe this information will help my students, but I don't want to tell
them
something wrong.
If all words that end is -ion are nouns, can someone tell me why? Is
there
some history about those words?
Thanks!
Jan
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:06:09 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
In-Reply-To: <002301c856d1$548783e0$ebc30143@yourrvlnhr6v8d>
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Here's a list (generated from an aspell file) of all the reasonably
common verbs ending in -tion. All were ultimately derived from nouns,
although for some of them (e.g., apportion) the conversion took place
before the word was borrowed.
It's not a large list, but it does show that the -tion = N rule is too tidy.
apportion
auction
audition
caption
caution
condition
function
malfunction
mention
motion
partition
petition
portion
position
precondition
proportion
proposition
question
ration
reapportion
recondition
reposition
requisition
sanction
section
station
vacation
rbetting wrote:
> Herb,
>
> Comments on noun functions. Does calling nouns used this way adjective make
> sense to students? Our linguistic system likes to be able to manipulate form
> words into other parts of speech, nouns to verbs and so on. One choice that
> appears to be handy is our use of nouns as modifiers, as in "the stocking
> committee planning chart" or "a fan belt compression fitting design plan."
> So we might hear of a "site plan coordination effort currently underway." I
> just read about the " 2007 Devils Lake operation summary report document."
> How's this: "The linear realignment task force control system planning
> session." That could apply to grammar study.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 9:33 AM
> Subject: Re: tion & nouns
>
>
> Linda,
>
> You're right that nouns can modify nouns and therefore function as
> adjectives. And function is a nice instance of a verb in -tion.
> English borrowed "function" from French as a noun in the late 16th c.
> It's verb use doesn't appear until 1856.
>
> And your cynicism is well founded.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda Comerford
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 11:50 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: tion & nouns
>
> Can't words ending in -tion (or -ion) also function as adjectives like
> an
> election poll (or like a verb as used in this sentence: function)? I'm
> all
> for simplifying as much as possible for my students, but I've learned to
> be
> cynical about using the words "all" or "none" regarding grammar.
>
> Linda
>
>
>
> Linda Comerford
> 317.786.6404
> [log in to unmask]
> www.comerfordconsulting.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jan Kammert
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 12:36 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: tion & nouns
>
>
> I teach middle school. One of the teachers in my district (not my
> building)
> said that all words that end in -tion are nouns. I never heard that
> before,
> but I thought of all the words I could that end in -tion. I think he
> might
> be right.
>
> Then I thought maybe all words that end in just -ion are nouns. Am I
> right?
> Maybe this information will help my students, but I don't want to tell
> them
> something wrong.
>
> If all words that end is -ion are nouns, can someone tell me why? Is
> there
> some history about those words?
> Thanks!
> Jan
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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>
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:33:03 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Linda Comerford <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Herb,
I always appreciate confirmation of my thinking regarding grammar from an
expert like you along with an explanation of the concept. Thanks!
Linda
Linda Comerford
317.786.6404
[log in to unmask]
www.comerfordconsulting.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 10:33 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
Linda,
You're right that nouns can modify nouns and therefore function as
adjectives. And function is a nice instance of a verb in -tion.
English borrowed "function" from French as a noun in the late 16th c.
It's verb use doesn't appear until 1856.
And your cynicism is well founded.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda Comerford
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 11:50 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
Can't words ending in -tion (or -ion) also function as adjectives like an
election poll (or like a verb as used in this sentence: function)? I'm all
for simplifying as much as possible for my students, but I've learned to be
cynical about using the words "all" or "none" regarding grammar.
Linda
Linda Comerford
317.786.6404
[log in to unmask]
www.comerfordconsulting.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jan Kammert
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 12:36 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: tion & nouns
I teach middle school. One of the teachers in my district (not my
building)
said that all words that end in -tion are nouns. I never heard that before,
but I thought of all the words I could that end in -tion. I think he might
be right.
Then I thought maybe all words that end in just -ion are nouns. Am I right?
Maybe this information will help my students, but I don't want to tell them
something wrong.
If all words that end is -ion are nouns, can someone tell me why? Is there
some history about those words?
Thanks!
Jan
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:33:56 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Linda & all,
The suffix -tion is an exceptionally good clue that a word is a noun.
Even Karl's list of -tion verbs can be shown to be nouns as well by
making them plural--with the possible exception of apportion. But
the list of -tion words made from verbs is huge. In the discussion of
noun derivational suffixes in Understanding English Grammar, I list
the following from the first few pages of the dictionary:
abbreviation, abolition, abortion, abstraction, accommodation,
accumulation, accusation, acquisition, action. Every page has them
in abundance--verbs that can be turned into nouns with the -ion (or
-tion, -ation, etc.) added.
And -tion is only one of many such derivational suffixes that
identify a word as a noun: Another that was mentioned was -ment.
There's also -ance, -al, -ant, -age, -y, -ure, and -er--and more.
The concept of "noun" as one of the form classes--along with verbs,
adjectives, and adverbs--is an important distinction between the
Latin-based "eight parts of speech" and the word classes based on
English. All the form classes have distinctive forms that students
will come to recognize in a conscious way--and they'll learn to
appreciate their inner grammar expertise.
And of course, nearly all nouns can function as adjectives. It's
important in discussing "parts of speech" to recognize the
distinction between form and function. It presents a problem for
test takers when they are asked to identify the "part of speech." In
a sentence with "the telephone book," for example, the underlined
word is functioning as an adjective, but that doesn't make it an
adjective; it's still a noun in form.
Just some thoughts.
Martha
>Here's a list (generated from an aspell file) of all the reasonably
>common verbs ending in -tion. All were ultimately derived from nouns,
>although for some of them (e.g., apportion) the conversion took place
>before the word was borrowed.
>
>It's not a large list, but it does show that the -tion = N rule is too tidy.
>
>apportion
>auction
>audition
>caption
>caution
>condition
>function
>malfunction
>mention
>motion
>partition
>petition
>portion
>position
>precondition
>proportion
>proposition
>question
>ration
>reapportion
>recondition
>reposition
>requisition
>sanction
>section
>station
>vacation
>
>
>rbetting wrote:
>> Herb,
>>
>> Comments on noun functions. Does calling nouns used this way adjective make
>> sense to students? Our linguistic system likes to be able to manipulate form
>> words into other parts of speech, nouns to verbs and so on. One choice that
>> appears to be handy is our use of nouns as modifiers, as in "the stocking
>> committee planning chart" or "a fan belt compression fitting design plan."
>> So we might hear of a "site plan coordination effort currently underway." I
>> just read about the " 2007 Devils Lake operation summary report document."
>> How's this: "The linear realignment task force control system planning
>> session." That could apply to grammar study.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 9:33 AM
>> Subject: Re: tion & nouns
>>
>>
>> Linda,
>>
>> You're right that nouns can modify nouns and therefore function as
>> adjectives. And function is a nice instance of a verb in -tion.
>> English borrowed "function" from French as a noun in the late 16th c.
>> It's verb use doesn't appear until 1856.
>>
>> And your cynicism is well founded.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda Comerford
>> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 11:50 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: tion & nouns
>>
>> Can't words ending in -tion (or -ion) also function as adjectives like
>> an
>> election poll (or like a verb as used in this sentence: function)? I'm
>> all
>> for simplifying as much as possible for my students, but I've learned to
> > be
>> cynical about using the words "all" or "none" regarding grammar.
>>
>> Linda
>>
>>
>>
>> Linda Comerford
>> 317.786.6404
>> [log in to unmask]
>> www.comerfordconsulting.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jan Kammert
>> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 12:36 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: tion & nouns
>>
>>
>> I teach middle school. One of the teachers in my district (not my
>> building)
>> said that all words that end in -tion are nouns. I never heard that
>> before,
>> but I thought of all the words I could that end in -tion. I think he
>> might
>> be right.
>>
>> Then I thought maybe all words that end in just -ion are nouns. Am I
>> right?
>> Maybe this information will help my students, but I don't want to tell
>> them
>> something wrong.
>>
>> If all words that end is -ion are nouns, can someone tell me why? Is
>> there
>> some history about those words?
>> Thanks!
>> Jan
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
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>>
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>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:31:43 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Peter Adams <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
In-Reply-To:
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Linda Comerford <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
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I'm glad I'm not alone in this....
Linda Comerford
317.786.6404
[log in to unmask]
www.comerfordconsulting.com Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:53:56 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
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Color words are especially interesting in that they serve as both
nouns and adjectives. The fact that you can make them plural tells
us that they are, indeed, nouns. And many adjectives, like smooth,
can become verbs. Here's a definition for a verb based on form: If
it has both an -s and an -ing ending, a word is a verb. And of
course, smooth fits that definition. But it also fits the form
definition of an adjective: can you make it comparative and
superlative? smoother, smoothest. If so, it's an adjective. We can
also say redder and reddest!
So, yes, the form/function concept is an important one.
Martha
>Martha,
>
>Could help me a little further with the form/function distinction.
>
>I'm wondering about a word like "red," which seems to be an
>adjective but also seems to satisfy the tests for a noun:
>
>Many of the reds in Carpaccio's paintings have faded over the years.
>(has a plural form)
>
>The red's intensity drew my eye to the corner of the painting.
>(takes possessive; takes determiner)
>
>But would that mean that "red" in the following sentence is a noun
>in form but functioning as an adjectival?
>
>The red bathrobe was draped over the back of the chair.
>
>
>Another example: the word "smooth." which, at first glance seems to
>be an adjective.
>
>The smooth surface of the river disguised the fact that it was
>flowing rapidly.
>
>But what about when it's used as a verb?
>
>John Edwards smoothed Joe Biden's ruffled feathers.
>
>Is this an adjective used as a verb? Or, does it make more sense to
>say there are two words spelled and pronounced the same--smooth--but
>one is a verb and a different word smooth is an adjective?
>
>
>One more example. How do we decide whether words like "ride" or
>"walk" are nouns that can function as verbs or verbs that can
>function as nouns?
>
>I took two rides on Saturday.
>The ride's ending was a great surprise.
>We ride/rode for hours
>They will ride until the sun sets.
>
>Our walks took place regardless of the weather.
>The walk's purpose was to aid our digestion.
>The teacher walks/walked to work.
>The teacher has walked to class today.
>
>
>Peter Adams
>
>
>On Jan 14, 2008, at 4:33 PM, Martha Kolln wrote:
>
>>Linda & all,
>>
>>The suffix -tion is an exceptionally good clue that a word is a
>>noun. Even Karl's list of -tion verbs can be shown to be nouns as
>>well by making them plural--with the possible exception
>>of apportion. But the list of -tion words made from verbs is huge.
>>In the discussion of noun derivational suffixes in Understanding
>>English Grammar, I list the following from the first few pages of
>>the dictionary: abbreviation, abolition, abortion, abstraction,
>>accommodation, accumulation, accusation, acquisition, action.
>>Every page has them in abundance--verbs that can be turned into
>>nouns with the -ion (or -tion, -ation, etc.) added.
>>
>>And -tion is only one of many such derivational suffixes that
>>identify a word as a noun: Another that was mentioned was -ment.
>>There's also -ance, -al, -ant, -age, -y, -ure, and -er--and more.
>>The concept of "noun" as one of the form classes--along with verbs,
>>adjectives, and adverbs--is an important distinction between the
>>Latin-based "eight parts of speech" and the word classes based on
>>English. All the form classes have distinctive forms that students
>>will come to recognize in a conscious way--and they'll learn to
>>appreciate their inner grammar expertise.
>>
>>And of course, nearly all nouns can function as adjectives. It's
>>important in discussing "parts of speech" to recognize the
>>distinction between form and function. It presents a problem for
>>test takers when they are asked to identify the "part of speech."
>>In a sentence with "the telephone book," for example, the
>>underlined word is functioning as an adjective, but that doesn't
>>make it an adjective; it's still a noun in form.
>>
>>Just some thoughts.
>>
>>Martha
>>
>>
>>>Here's a list (generated from an aspell file) of all the reasonably
>>>common verbs ending in -tion. All were ultimately derived from nouns,
>>>although for some of them (e.g., apportion) the conversion took place
>>>before the word was borrowed.
>>>
>>>It's not a large list, but it does show that the -tion = N rule is too tidy.
>>>
>>>apportion
>>>auction
>>>audition
>>>caption
>>>caution
>>>condition
>>>function
>>>malfunction
>>>mention
>>>motion
>>>partition
>>>petition
>>>portion
>>>position
>>>precondition
>>>proportion
>>>proposition
>>>question
>>>ration
>>>reapportion
>>>recondition
>>>reposition
>>>requisition
>>>sanction
>>>section
>>>station
>>>vacation
>>>
>>>
>>>rbetting wrote:
>>>> Herb,
>>>>
>>>> Comments on noun functions. Does calling nouns used this way
>>>>adjective make
>>>> sense to students? Our linguistic system likes to be able to
>>>>manipulate form
>>>> words into other parts of speech, nouns to verbs and so on. One
>>>>choice that
>>>> appears to be handy is our use of nouns as modifiers, as in "the stocking
>>>> committee planning chart" or "a fan belt compression fitting design plan."
>>>> So we might hear of a "site plan coordination effort currently
>>>>underway." I
>>>> just read about the " 2007 Devils Lake operation summary report document."
>>>> How's this: "The linear realignment task force control system planning
>>>> session." That could apply to grammar study.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:36:08 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Subject: Re: tion & nouns
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rbetting,
Some great examples, but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. By "to manipulate form words into other parts of speech," are you referring to shifts of closed class items like prepositions or conjunctions to other parts of speech or was this the sort of rapid compositional error I make a lot of, where you meant one of the two verbs, manipulate or form, but forgot to delete the other? If you meant rather that "form" is a noun modifying "words", form words, like prepositions, conjunctions, and determiners, very rarely shift word class, unlike content words (nouns, adjectives, verbs, and most adverbs), which can shift fairly readily. Form words are more commonly called function words.
You answer your own question about calling a modifying noun and adjective by calling them "nouns used as modifiers." That makes the necessary form/function distinction. Such a noun is a noun, but it's functioning as a modifier. That doesn't make it an adjective. Your examples, however, would generally be treated as compound nouns, not as phrasal constructions. Notice that "British English" has two primary stresses, but "stocking committee planning chart" has only one. That's a fairly good marker of the difference between a noun phrase and a compound noun. An interesting example that shows some variation in how speakers analyze it is whether one pronounces TV with the stress pattern of ID or of Stevie. For speakers with the former pattern, TV is an initialism; for the latter it's a compound or perhaps simply a new simplex noun.
As to what makes sense to students, I don't think I would raise issues like this until some bright student asks why "form" in "form word" is a noun if it's modifying another noun. Then would be a good time to introduce the form/function distinction. But I'm not a high school teacher and I'm reluctant to make pedagogical suggestions to those who know that age-group much better than I do.
I fear I missed what you were getting at with your last remark, about grammar. Sorry to be dense, but there's a leap here I didn't make as I read.
Herb,
Comments on noun functions. Does calling nouns used this way adjective make
sense to students? Our linguistic system likes to be able to manipulate form
words into other parts of speech, nouns to verbs and so on. One choice that
appears to be handy is our use of nouns as modifiers, as in "the stocking
committee planning chart" or "a fan belt compression fitting design plan."
So we might hear of a "site plan coordination effort currently underway." I
just read about the " 2007 Devils Lake operation summary report document."
How's this: "The linear realignment task force control system planning
session." That could apply to grammar study.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 23:02:35 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
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Peter asks excellent questions!
As an example of how muddled things can get, I would probably think that
"red" in the examples below is an adjective functioning nomially (noun-ial?
How does one specify that again?), and that the final sentence shows the
word "red" as an adjective. I admit my bias: I was "taught" that colors
were adjectives, back in the Old Days of my grammar school, and only learned
later that "some adjectives can be nouns, too" (how I remember it being
explained at the time - again, back in the Old Days). Hence now I still
think of colors as adjectives which can behave as nouns.
I'm fascinated by distinctions like this, which makes my students think I am
a Nerd. I have embraced this, and laugh about it with them, although I
prefer "language geek," really.
-patty
_____
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 5:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
Martha,
Could help me a little further with the form/function distinction.
I'm wondering about a word like "red," which seems to be an adjective but
also seems to satisfy the tests for a noun:
Many of the reds in Carpaccio's paintings have faded over the years. (has a
plural form)
The red's intensity drew my eye to the corner of the painting. (takes
possessive; takes determiner)
But would that mean that "red" in the following sentence is a noun in form
but functioning as an adjectival?
The red bathrobe was draped over the back of the chair.
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Peter asks excellent questions! As an example of how muddled things can
get, I would probably think that “red” in the examples below is an
adjective functioning nomially (noun-ial? How does one specify that
again?), and that the final sentence shows the word “red” as an
adjective. I admit my bias: I was “taught” that colors were
adjectives, back in the Old Days of my grammar school, and only learned later
that “some adjectives can be nouns, too” (how I remember it being
explained at the time – again, back in the Old Days). Hence now I
still think of colors as adjectives which can behave as nouns. I’m fascinated by distinctions like
this, which makes my students think I am a Nerd. I have embraced this,
and laugh about it with them, although I prefer “language geek,”
really. -patty From: Martha, Could help me a little further with the form/function distinction. I'm wondering about a word like "red," which seems to be an
adjective but also seems to satisfy the tests for a noun: Many of the reds in Carpaccio's paintings have faded over the years.
(has a plural form) The red's intensity drew my eye to the corner of the painting. (takes
possessive; takes determiner) But would that mean that "red" in the following sentence is a
noun in form but functioning as an adjectival? The red bathrobe was draped over the back of the chair.
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:43:00 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: rbetting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
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Herb,
Thank you for your thorough reply to my rather off the cuff remarks.
Actually, I wasn't sure the message would be accepted by the ATEG system
since the past few were not. Your explanation of that string of nouns as
compound is better than viewing them as a noun and its modifiers, and the
use of intonation to demonstrate same is very useful. In my vocabulary I use
form words and function words somewhat differently, form words being
inflected, open categories in which we create and then manipulate or shift
them from one form to the other, while function words are the ones that
don't move much, including preps, conj, particles, determiners and so on. Of
course, words are all nouns when we speak of them. No, we don't manipulate
form words into function words, but we really like to mess with them, making
them verbs when we want, adjective functioning when we need to. Some define
colors as homophones, so that we can have different classes of the 'same'
word without a lot of explaining how that can be.
Dick Betting
----- Original Message -----
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
rbetting,
Some great examples, but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. By
"to manipulate form words into other parts of speech," are you referring to
shifts of closed class items like prepositions or conjunctions to other
parts of speech or was this the sort of rapid compositional error I make a
lot of, where you meant one of the two verbs, manipulate or form, but forgot
to delete the other? If you meant rather that "form" is a noun modifying
"words", form words, like prepositions, conjunctions, and determiners, very
rarely shift word class, unlike content words (nouns, adjectives, verbs, and
most adverbs), which can shift fairly readily. Form words are more commonly
called function words.
You answer your own question about calling a modifying noun and adjective by
calling them "nouns used as modifiers." That makes the necessary
form/function distinction. Such a noun is a noun, but it's functioning as a
modifier. That doesn't make it an adjective. Your examples, however, would
generally be treated as compound nouns, not as phrasal constructions.
Notice that "British English" has two primary stresses, but "stocking
committee planning chart" has only one. That's a fairly good marker of the
difference between a noun phrase and a compound noun. An interesting
example that shows some variation in how speakers analyze it is whether one
pronounces TV with the stress pattern of ID or of Stevie. For speakers with
the former pattern, TV is an initialism; for the latter it's a compound or
perhaps simply a new simplex noun.
As to what makes sense to students, I don't think I would raise issues like
this until some bright student asks why "form" in "form word" is a noun if
it's modifying another noun. Then would be a good time to introduce the
form/function distinction. But I'm not a high school teacher and I'm
reluctant to make pedagogical suggestions to those who know that age-group
much better than I do.
I fear I missed what you were getting at with your last remark, about
grammar. Sorry to be dense, but there's a leap here I didn't make as I
read.
Herb,
Comments on noun functions. Does calling nouns used this way adjective make
sense to students? Our linguistic system likes to be able to manipulate form
words into other parts of speech, nouns to verbs and so on. One choice that
appears to be handy is our use of nouns as modifiers, as in "the stocking
committee planning chart" or "a fan belt compression fitting design plan."
So we might hear of a "site plan coordination effort currently underway." I
just read about the " 2007 Devils Lake operation summary report document."
How's this: "The linear realignment task force control system planning
session." That could apply to grammar study.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:56:00 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Dee Bauman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
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Hi to all,
I'm a new participant in this group so hope that it is appropriate to
introduce a new topic.
Our district is looking for a scope and sequence of grammar concepts
that we can review/adapt for our teachers. Our 6-12 English teachers
are involved in an AP vertical team structure which is currently focused
on "best practice" in teaching grammar. One of our stumbling blocks has
been a lack of a clear set of grade level expectations for grammar
concepts.
If your district has a scope and sequence, would you be willing to
share it?
Thanks in advance for any help that you can send my way.
Dee Bauman
Dee Bauman, Ph.D.
Instructional Services Supervisor
W220 N6151 Town Line Road
Sussex WI 53089-3999
Telephone: 262.246.1973 x1180
Facsimile: 262.246.6552
[log in to unmask]
>>> Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]> 1/14/2008 10:02 PM >>>
Peter asks excellent questions!
As an example of how muddled things can get, I would probably think
that “red” in the examples below is an adjective functioning nomially
(noun-ial? How does one specify that again?), and that the final
sentence shows the word “red” as an adjective. I admit my bias: I was
“taught” that colors were adjectives, back in the Old Days of my
grammar school, and only learned later that “some adjectives can be
nouns, too” (how I remember it being explained at the time – again, back
in the Old Days). Hence now I still think of colors as adjectives which
can behave as nouns.
I’m fascinated by distinctions like this, which makes my students think
I am a Nerd. I have embraced this, and laugh about it with them,
although I prefer “language geek,” really.
-patty
From:Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 5:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
Martha,
Could help me a little further with the form/function distinction.
I'm wondering about a word like "red," which seems to be an adjective
but also seems to satisfy the tests for a noun:
Many of the reds in Carpaccio's paintings have faded over the years.
(has a plural form)
The red's intensity drew my eye to the corner of the painting. (takes
possessive; takes determiner)
But would that mean that "red" in the following sentence is a noun in
form but functioning as an adjectival?
The red bathrobe was draped over the back of the chair.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Peter asks excellent questions! As an example of how muddled things can get, I would probably think that “red” in the examples below is an adjective functioning nomially (noun-ial? How does one specify that again?), and that the final sentence shows the word “red” as an adjective. I admit my bias: I was “taught” that colors were adjectives, back in the Old Days of my grammar school, and only learned later that “some adjectives can be nouns, too” (how I remember it being explained at the time – again, back in the Old Days). Hence now I still think of colors as adjectives which can behave as nouns. I’m fascinated by distinctions like this, which makes my students think I am a Nerd. I have embraced this, and laugh about it with them, although I prefer “language geek,” really. -patty From: Martha, Could help me a little further with the form/function distinction. I'm wondering about a word like "red," which seems to be an adjective but also seems to satisfy the tests for a noun: Many of the reds in Carpaccio's paintings have faded over the years. (has a plural form) The red's intensity drew my eye to the corner of the painting. (takes possessive; takes determiner) But would that mean that "red" in the following sentence is a noun in form but functioning as an adjectival? The red bathrobe was draped over the back of the chair. Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:17:13 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Dee Bauman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: scope and sequence for grammar
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Hi to all,
I'm a new participant in this group so hope that it is appropriate to
introduce a new topic.
Our district is looking for a scope and sequence of grammar concepts
that we can review/adapt for our teachers. Our 6-12 English teachers
are involved in an AP vertical team structure which is currently focused
on "best practice" in teaching grammar. One of our stumbling blocks has
been a lack of a clear set of grade level expectations for grammar
concepts.
If your district has a scope and sequence, would you be willing to
share it?
Thanks in advance for any help that you can send my way.
Dee Bauman
Dee Bauman, Ph.D.
Instructional Services Supervisor
W220 N6151 Town Line Road
Sussex WI 53089-3999
Telephone: 262.246.1973 x1180
Facsimile: 262.246.6552
[log in to unmask]
>>> Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]> 1/14/2008 10:02 PM >>>
Peter asks excellent questions!
As an example of how muddled things can get, I would probably think
that “red” in the examples below is an adjective functioning nomially
(noun-ial? How does one specify that again?), and that the final
sentence shows the word “red” as an adjective. I admit my bias: I was
“taught” that colors were adjectives, back in the Old Days of my
grammar school, and only learned later that “some adjectives can be
nouns, too” (how I remember it being explained at the time – again, back
in the Old Days). Hence now I still think of colors as adjectives which
can behave as nouns.
I’m fascinated by distinctions like this, which makes my students think
I am a Nerd. I have embraced this, and laugh about it with them,
although I prefer “language geek,” really.
-patty
From:Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 5:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
Martha,
Could help me a little further with the form/function distinction.
I'm wondering about a word like "red," which seems to be an adjective
but also seems to satisfy the tests for a noun:
Many of the reds in Carpaccio's paintings have faded over the years.
(has a plural form)
The red's intensity drew my eye to the corner of the painting. (takes
possessive; takes determiner)
But would that mean that "red" in the following sentence is a noun in
form but functioning as an adjectival?
The red bathrobe was draped over the back of the chair.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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considered private or confidential because they may be archived and
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requests made pursuant to Wisconsin public records law.
NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER
This e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the
individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Please notify the
sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake
and delete this e-mail from your system. Please note that the views or
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not necessarily represent those of the Hamilton School District. Any
unauthorized use, distribution, copying or disclosure by you or to any
other person is prohibited.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Peter asks excellent questions! As an example of how muddled things can get, I would probably think that “red” in the examples below is an adjective functioning nomially (noun-ial? How does one specify that again?), and that the final sentence shows the word “red” as an adjective. I admit my bias: I was “taught” that colors were adjectives, back in the Old Days of my grammar school, and only learned later that “some adjectives can be nouns, too” (how I remember it being explained at the time – again, back in the Old Days). Hence now I still think of colors as adjectives which can behave as nouns. I’m fascinated by distinctions like this, which makes my students think I am a Nerd. I have embraced this, and laugh about it with them, although I prefer “language geek,” really. -patty From: Martha, Could help me a little further with the form/function distinction. I'm wondering about a word like "red," which seems to be an adjective but also seems to satisfy the tests for a noun: Many of the reds in Carpaccio's paintings have faded over the years. (has a plural form) The red's intensity drew my eye to the corner of the painting. (takes possessive; takes determiner) But would that mean that "red" in the following sentence is a noun in form but functioning as an adjectival? The red bathrobe was draped over the back of the chair. Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--=__Part0422C269.0__=--
========================================================================Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:35:23 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ben Varner <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Northern Colorado
Subject: Re: scope and sequence for grammar
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I've been very impressed by Dawn Burnette's DGP (Daily Grammar Practice)
and have recommended it often to my student teachers:
http://www.writingprocess.net/
Ben Varner
University of Northern Colorado
> Hi to all,
> I'm a new participant in this group so hope that it is appropriate to
> introduce a new topic.
> Our district is looking for a scope and sequence of grammar concepts
> that we can review/adapt for our teachers. Our 6-12 English teachers
> are involved in an AP vertical team structure which is currently focused
> on "best practice" in teaching grammar. One of our stumbling blocks has
> been a lack of a clear set of grade level expectations for grammar concepts.
> If your district has a scope and sequence, would you be willing to share it?
> Thanks in advance for any help that you can send my way.
> Dee Bauman
>
> Dee Bauman, Ph.D.
> Instructional Services Supervisor
> W220 N6151 Town Line Road
> Sussex WI 53089-3999
> Telephone: 262.246.1973 x1180
> Facsimile: 262.246.6552
> [log in to unmask]
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:56:36 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Natalie Gerber <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: scope and sequence for grammar
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Dee,
Amy Benjamin's recent book Engaging Grammar has a chapter on this very topic; perhaps it is already familiar to you.
As I'm not an education person, I can't tell you how accurate you may find it to your districts' needs, but I know that my college students in a grammar class past term found it a useful resource.
Best wishes,
Natalie Gerber
SUNY Fredonia
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Dee Bauman
Sent: Tue 1/15/2008 10:17 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: scope and sequence for grammar
Hi to all,
I'm a new participant in this group so hope that it is appropriate to introduce a new topic.
Our district is looking for a scope and sequence of grammar concepts that we can review/adapt for our teachers. Our 6-12 English teachers are involved in an AP vertical team structure which is currently focused on "best practice" in teaching grammar. One of our stumbling blocks has been a lack of a clear set of grade level expectations for grammar concepts.
If your district has a scope and sequence, would you be willing to share it?
Thanks in advance for any help that you can send my way.
Dee Bauman
Dee Bauman, Ph.D.
Instructional Services Supervisor
W220 N6151 Town Line Road
Sussex WI 53089-3999
Telephone: 262.246.1973 x1180
Facsimile: 262.246.6552
[log in to unmask]
>>> Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]> 1/14/2008 10:02 PM >>>
Peter asks excellent questions!
As an example of how muddled things can get, I would probably think that "red" in the examples below is an adjective functioning nomially (noun-ial? How does one specify that again?), and that the final sentence shows the word "red" as an adjective. I admit my bias: I was "taught" that colors were adjectives, back in the Old Days of my grammar school, and only learned later that "some adjectives can be nouns, too" (how I remember it being explained at the time - again, back in the Old Days). Hence now I still think of colors as adjectives which can behave as nouns.
I'm fascinated by distinctions like this, which makes my students think I am a Nerd. I have embraced this, and laugh about it with them, although I prefer "language geek," really.
-patty
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 5:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
Martha,
Could help me a little further with the form/function distinction.
I'm wondering about a word like "red," which seems to be an adjective but also seems to satisfy the tests for a noun:
Many of the reds in Carpaccio's paintings have faded over the years. (has a plural form)
The red's intensity drew my eye to the corner of the painting. (takes possessive; takes determiner)
But would that mean that "red" in the following sentence is a noun in form but functioning as an adjectival?
The red bathrobe was draped over the back of the chair.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:12:33 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
In-Reply-To: A<000d01c85784$ee090fd0$b8ce0143@yourrvlnhr6v8d>
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Rbetting, et al,
There's a potential terminological confusion that can occur here,
largely the result of a collision between the "form vs. function"
distinction and the term "form word." Most linguists/grammarians make a
distinction between the kind of word that has a meaning that's easy to
define out of context ("chair") but is not required as part of the basic
grammatical toolkit of English, and words that are very difficult to
define but that are necessary for constructing sentences ("the," "of").
The labels for the two kinds of words vary, though; in some grammars
it's "lexical words vs. form words," in others it may be "content words
vs. structure words" etc. If you run into the term "form word," it's
completely natural to think it's the same "form" as in "form vs.
function," but there's a difference. To avoid confusion, I'm going to
temporarily adopt the otherwise-clumsy terms "Definable" and "Toolkit"
for the two types of words.
The distinction between form and function is one that is most often made
in reference to the Definables. "Iron," in reference to a metal, for
example, is rather easy to define, but it can be used more than one way:
That skillet is made of iron.
It's an iron skillet.
In both cases, Iron is a Definable. Moreover, it's a Definable that for
most purposes is a noun -- it does all the normal noun things except
take a plural, but then, nouns referring to substances usually don't
take plurals anyway. Many of us would prefer to view the "iron" in "iron
skillet" as still being a noun, basically, but one that is acting a bit
*like* an adjective. The alternative is to adopt a homonym argument, and
say that there are two words, spelled and pronounced the same and both
referring to the same metal, but one is a noun and the other an
adjective.
It is possible to take a toolkit word as well and use it in a different
function than its normal one, but -- with one very important exception
-- this is rare. I can, for example, say that there "was much to-ing and
fro-ing going on," or "Be careful when arguing with him, or he'll
however you to death." The important, *common* exception is the one that
occurs when we discuss words *as words*, as when we write things like,
"you have two the-s in a row there." That trick turns everything into a
noun.
The form/function distinction is basically the old philosophical notion
of essence vs. accidence applied to grammar: we think a word
"essentially" belongs to a category (like "noun"), but can be
conscripted into others temporarily without losing its basic attachment
to its "real" category. Color terms, as Martha and others have pointed
out, are a different kind of case because they can take on *all* the
characteristics of a regular noun and *all* the characteristics of a
regular adjective. I can have an iron skillet, but I can't have an
ironish one -- iron doesn't take some of the normal adjective suffixes.
But there are both reds and reddish things. It's therefore more
difficult to say that red is "essentially" a noun or "essentially" an
adjective; if we have to pick one of those options, it's on the basis of
frequency.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of rbetting
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 9:43 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
Herb,
Thank you for your thorough reply to my rather off the cuff remarks.
Actually, I wasn't sure the message would be accepted by the ATEG system
since the past few were not. Your explanation of that string of nouns as
compound is better than viewing them as a noun and its modifiers, and
the
use of intonation to demonstrate same is very useful. In my vocabulary I
use
form words and function words somewhat differently, form words being
inflected, open categories in which we create and then manipulate or
shift
them from one form to the other, while function words are the ones that
don't move much, including preps, conj, particles, determiners and so
on. Of
course, words are all nouns when we speak of them. No, we don't
manipulate
form words into function words, but we really like to mess with them,
making
them verbs when we want, adjective functioning when we need to. Some
define
colors as homophones, so that we can have different classes of the
'same'
word without a lot of explaining how that can be.
Dick Betting
----- Original Message -----
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
rbetting,
Some great examples, but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.
By
"to manipulate form words into other parts of speech," are you referring
to
shifts of closed class items like prepositions or conjunctions to other
parts of speech or was this the sort of rapid compositional error I make
a
lot of, where you meant one of the two verbs, manipulate or form, but
forgot
to delete the other? If you meant rather that "form" is a noun
modifying
"words", form words, like prepositions, conjunctions, and determiners,
very
rarely shift word class, unlike content words (nouns, adjectives, verbs,
and
most adverbs), which can shift fairly readily. Form words are more
commonly
called function words.
You answer your own question about calling a modifying noun and
adjective by
calling them "nouns used as modifiers." That makes the necessary
form/function distinction. Such a noun is a noun, but it's functioning
as a
modifier. That doesn't make it an adjective. Your examples, however,
would
generally be treated as compound nouns, not as phrasal constructions.
Notice that "British English" has two primary stresses, but "stocking
committee planning chart" has only one. That's a fairly good marker of
the
difference between a noun phrase and a compound noun. An interesting
example that shows some variation in how speakers analyze it is whether
one
pronounces TV with the stress pattern of ID or of Stevie. For speakers
with
the former pattern, TV is an initialism; for the latter it's a compound
or
perhaps simply a new simplex noun.
As to what makes sense to students, I don't think I would raise issues
like
this until some bright student asks why "form" in "form word" is a noun
if
it's modifying another noun. Then would be a good time to introduce the
form/function distinction. But I'm not a high school teacher and I'm
reluctant to make pedagogical suggestions to those who know that
age-group
much better than I do.
I fear I missed what you were getting at with your last remark, about
grammar. Sorry to be dense, but there's a leap here I didn't make as I
read.
Herb,
Comments on noun functions. Does calling nouns used this way adjective
make
sense to students? Our linguistic system likes to be able to manipulate
form
words into other parts of speech, nouns to verbs and so on. One choice
that
appears to be handy is our use of nouns as modifiers, as in "the
stocking
committee planning chart" or "a fan belt compression fitting design
plan."
So we might hear of a "site plan coordination effort currently
underway." I
just read about the " 2007 Devils Lake operation summary report
document."
How's this: "The linear realignment task force control system planning
session." That could apply to grammar study.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:26:43 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: scope and sequence for grammar
In-Reply-To: A<[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I'm going to toss out a "wanna" item in reference to this topic. Scope
and sequence specifications include -- either implicitly or explicitly
-- some ideas about developmental stages and age. I teach a good many
English education majors, and I've actually had trouble convincing some
of them that seven-year-olds can handle the notion that there are
different kinds of words (I've had students who believe you can't talk
about word categories until high school). Conversely, I've seen examples
of bizarre attempts to teach seven-year-olds the abstract structure of
absolute phrases, etc. I've also seen state guidelines that boil down to
"students in this grade should be able to talk about the grammar
concepts that students in this grade should be able to talk about," with
no specifications -- anywhere -- of what those might be.
Separate from a specific scope-and-sequence, it would be very useful to
have a widely agreed-upon list of statements like "at age X students can
handle discussing Y." Years ago, I listened to the eight-year-old child
of a colleague explain the minute arcana of pokemon (sp?) rules, so to
"widely agreed-upon," I should probably add, "not contradicted by
evidence."
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Natalie Gerber
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 11:57 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: scope and sequence for grammar
Hi Dee,
Amy Benjamin's recent book Engaging Grammar has a chapter on this very
topic; perhaps it is already familiar to you.
As I'm not an education person, I can't tell you how accurate you may
find it to your districts' needs, but I know that my college students in
a grammar class past term found it a useful resource.
Best wishes,
Natalie Gerber
SUNY Fredonia
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Dee
Bauman
Sent: Tue 1/15/2008 10:17 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: scope and sequence for grammar
Hi to all,
I'm a new participant in this group so hope that it is appropriate to
introduce a new topic.
Our district is looking for a scope and sequence of grammar concepts
that we can review/adapt for our teachers. Our 6-12 English teachers
are involved in an AP vertical team structure which is currently focused
on "best practice" in teaching grammar. One of our stumbling blocks has
been a lack of a clear set of grade level expectations for grammar
concepts.
If your district has a scope and sequence, would you be willing to share
it?
Thanks in advance for any help that you can send my way.
Dee Bauman
Dee Bauman, Ph.D.
Instructional Services Supervisor
W220 N6151 Town Line Road
Sussex WI 53089-3999
Telephone: 262.246.1973 x1180
Facsimile: 262.246.6552
[log in to unmask]
>>> Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]> 1/14/2008 10:02 PM >>>
Peter asks excellent questions!
As an example of how muddled things can get, I would probably think that
"red" in the examples below is an adjective functioning nomially
(noun-ial? How does one specify that again?), and that the final
sentence shows the word "red" as an adjective. I admit my bias: I was
"taught" that colors were adjectives, back in the Old Days of my grammar
school, and only learned later that "some adjectives can be nouns, too"
(how I remember it being explained at the time - again, back in the Old
Days). Hence now I still think of colors as adjectives which can behave
as nouns.
I'm fascinated by distinctions like this, which makes my students think
I am a Nerd. I have embraced this, and laugh about it with them,
although I prefer "language geek," really.
-patty
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 5:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
Martha,
Could help me a little further with the form/function distinction.
I'm wondering about a word like "red," which seems to be an adjective
but also seems to satisfy the tests for a noun:
Many of the reds in Carpaccio's paintings have faded over the years.
(has a plural form)
The red's intensity drew my eye to the corner of the painting. (takes
possessive; takes determiner)
But would that mean that "red" in the following sentence is a noun in
form but functioning as an adjectival?
The red bathrobe was draped over the back of the chair.
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:48:29 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Edward Vavra <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: scope and sequence for grammar
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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--_000_BEDD823C2C8BC249A80E8C6AE94FE6DE3056084E86exchmbx1pcted_--
========================================================================Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:24:30 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: scope and sequence for grammar
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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What is "KISS" an acronym for? For some reason, all I can think of is Gene Simmons with his tongue out (not a very appealing image for a grammar sequence!)
CLM
Edward Vavra <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} Dee,
    You might want to consider the KISS sequence. The materials are all free, and the sequence is adaptable. The following link takes you to the “strategic position” for grade six. The left and right arrows will move you through the grade levels. http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/LPlans/G06_Intro.htm
Ed V.
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dee Bauman
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 10:17 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: scope and sequence for grammar
Hi to all,
I'm a new participant in this group so hope that it is appropriate to introduce a new topic.
Our district is looking for a scope and sequence of grammar concepts that we can review/adapt for our teachers. Our 6-12 English teachers are involved in an AP vertical team structure which is currently focused on "best practice" in teaching grammar. One of our stumbling blocks has been a lack of a clear set of grade level expectations for grammar concepts.
If your district has a scope and sequence, would you be willing to share it?
Thanks in advance for any help that you can send my way.
Dee Bauman
Dee Bauman, Ph.D.
Instructional Services Supervisor
W220 N6151 Town Line Road
Sussex WI 53089-3999
Telephone: 262.246.1973 x1180
Facsimile: 262.246.6552
[log in to unmask]
>>> Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]> 1/14/2008 10:02 PM >>>
Peter asks excellent questions!
As an example of how muddled things can get, I would probably think that “red” in the examples below is an adjective functioning nomially (noun-ial? How does one specify that again?), and that the final sentence shows the word “red” as an adjective. I admit my bias: I was “taught” that colors were adjectives, back in the Old Days of my grammar school, and only learned later that “some adjectives can be nouns, too” (how I remember it being explained at the time – again, back in the Old Days). Hence now I still think of colors as adjectives which can behave as nouns.
I’m fascinated by distinctions like this, which makes my students think I am a Nerd. I have embraced this, and laugh about it with them, although I prefer “language geek,” really.
-patty
---------------------------------
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 5:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
Martha,
Could help me a little further with the form/function distinction.
I'm wondering about a word like "red," which seems to be an adjective but also seems to satisfy the tests for a noun:
Many of the reds in Carpaccio's paintings have faded over the years. (has a plural form)
The red's intensity drew my eye to the corner of the painting. (takes possessive; takes determiner)
But would that mean that "red" in the following sentence is a noun in form but functioning as an adjectival?
The red bathrobe was draped over the back of the chair.
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:33:14 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Marcia Alessi <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: scope and sequence for grammar
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Hello, listers,
I am no longer teaching grammar but I have used the KISS materials
for sixth graders with great success and recommend them!
Marcia Alessi
Los Angeles
On Jan 15, 2008, at 9:48 AM, Edward Vavra wrote:
> Dee,
>
> You might want to consider the KISS sequence. The materials
> are all free, and the sequence is adaptable. The following link
> takes you to the “strategic position” for grade six. The left and
> right arrows will move you through the grade levels.http://
> home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/LPlans/G06_Intro.htm
>
>
>
> Ed V.
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dee Bauman
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 10:17 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: scope and sequence for grammar
>
>
>
> Hi to all,
>
> I'm a new participant in this group so hope that it is appropriate
> to introduce a new topic.
>
> Our district is looking for a scope and sequence of grammar
> concepts that we can review/adapt for our teachers. Our 6-12
> English teachers are involved in an AP vertical team structure
> which is currently focused on "best practice" in teaching grammar.
> One of our stumbling blocks has been a lack of a clear set of grade
> level expectations for grammar concepts.
>
> If your district has a scope and sequence, would you be willing to
> share it?
>
> Thanks in advance for any help that you can send my way.
>
> Dee Bauman
>
>
>
> Dee Bauman, Ph.D.
> Instructional Services Supervisor
> W220 N6151 Town Line Road
> Sussex WI 53089-3999
> Telephone: 262.246.1973 x1180
> Facsimile: 262.246.6552
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> >>> Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]> 1/14/2008 10:02 PM >>>
>
> Peter asks excellent questions!
>
>
>
> As an example of how muddled things can get, I would probably think
> that “red” in the examples below is an adjective functioning
> nomially (noun-ial? How does one specify that again?), and that
> the final sentence shows the word “red” as an adjective. I admit
> my bias: I was “taught” that colors were adjectives, back in the
> Old Days of my grammar school, and only learned later that “some
> adjectives can be nouns, too” (how I remember it being explained at
> the time – again, back in the Old Days). Hence now I still think
> of colors as adjectives which can behave as nouns.
>
>
>
> I’m fascinated by distinctions like this, which makes my students
> think I am a Nerd. I have embraced this, and laugh about it with
> them, although I prefer “language geek,” really.
>
>
>
> -patty
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams
> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 5:32 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: tion & nouns
>
>
>
> Martha,
>
>
>
> Could help me a little further with the form/function distinction.
>
>
>
> I'm wondering about a word like "red," which seems to be an
> adjective but also seems to satisfy the tests for a noun:
>
>
>
> Many of the reds in Carpaccio's paintings have faded over the
> years. (has a plural form)
>
>
>
> The red's intensity drew my eye to the corner of the painting.
> (takes possessive; takes determiner)
>
>
>
> But would that mean that "red" in the following sentence is a noun
> in form but functioning as an adjectival?
>
>
>
> The red bathrobe was draped over the back of the chair.
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
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Dee, You might want to consider the KISS sequence. The materials are all free, and the sequence is adaptable. The following link takes you to the “strategic position” for grade six. The left and right arrows will move you through the grade levels.http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/LPlans/G06_Intro.htm Ed V. From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dee Bauman Hi to all, I'm a new participant in this group so hope that it is appropriate to introduce a new topic. Our district is looking for a scope and sequence of grammar concepts that we can review/adapt for our teachers. Our 6-12 English teachers are involved in an AP vertical team structure which is currently focused on "best practice" in teaching grammar. One of our stumbling blocks has been a lack of a clear set of grade level expectations for grammar concepts. If your district has a scope and sequence, would you be willing to share it? Thanks in advance for any help that you can send my way. Dee Bauman Dee Bauman, Ph.D. Peter asks excellent questions! As an example of how muddled things can get, I would probably think that “red” in the examples below is an adjective functioning nomially (noun-ial? How does one specify that again?), and that the final sentence shows the word “red” as an adjective. I admit my bias: I was “taught” that colors were adjectives, back in the Old Days of my grammar school, and only learned later that “some adjectives can be nouns, too” (how I remember it being explained at the time – again, back in the Old Days). Hence now I still think of colors as adjectives which can behave as nouns. I’m fascinated by distinctions like this, which makes my students think I am a Nerd. I have embraced this, and laugh about it with them, although I prefer “language geek,” really. -patty From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams Martha, Could help me a little further with the form/function distinction. I'm wondering about a word like "red," which seems to be an adjective but also seems to satisfy the tests for a noun: Many of the reds in Carpaccio's paintings have faded over the years. (has a plural form) The red's intensity drew my eye to the corner of the painting. (takes possessive; takes determiner) But would that mean that "red" in the following sentence is a noun in form but functioning as an adjectival? The red bathrobe was draped over the back of the chair. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 09:47:52 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: A splendid new book
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Dear ATEGers,
If you attended ATEG this past July, you saw and heard Don Stewart
discuss Francis Christensen's "Notes Toward a New Rhetoric: Six
Essays for Teachers," first published in 1967. The essays were
reprints of wonderful articles Christensen had written for College
English and 4Cs. Two of them "A Generative Rhetoric of the Sentence"
and " A Generative Rhetoric of the Paragraph" were especially
influential at a time when the writing process was just getting
underway. He told his readers that "we do not really teach our
captive charges to write better--we merely expect them to." And then
he showed us how to teach them. I learned so much about crafting
sentences and paragraphs from him. And everything I know about
restrictive/nonrestrictive punctuation and absolute phrases came from
his chapters on those two subjects!
The second edition of "Notes" came out in 1978, after his death. His
wife, Bonnijean, added three more essays. But "Notes Toward a New
Rhetoric: Nine Essays for Teachers" has been out of print for several
decades.
Until now.
In July Don explained that he had acquired the rights to the work
from Bonnijean. And thanks to Don, this wonderful book is now
available again. He had it printed by Booklocker, a POD (print on
demand) publisher.
It's available from them: www.booklocker.com
Just put in the title: Notes Toward a New Rhetoric" and click "buy
paperback." I should tell you that you'll find a Martha blurb on the
back cover. And it's a nice cover, indeed.
And speaking of ATEG, I hope that you will make plans to join us this
coming summer at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon--just a few
miles from my hometown! If you've been thinking about a Western
vacation, this is your chance! I've already made my airline
reservations. The dates of the conference are July 11-12 (with a
minicourse on the 9th and 10th.) Watch for registration information
in the ATEG Newsletter.
Martha
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:03:10 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A splendid new book
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Martha,
Thanks for the heads-up. Ordering the book is easy. Thanks to Don for
keeping this alive. Some of us have been waiting a long time.
Craig>
Dear ATEGers,
>
> If you attended ATEG this past July, you saw and heard Don Stewart
> discuss Francis Christensen's "Notes Toward a New Rhetoric: Six
> Essays for Teachers," first published in 1967. The essays were
> reprints of wonderful articles Christensen had written for College
> English and 4Cs. Two of them "A Generative Rhetoric of the Sentence"
> and " A Generative Rhetoric of the Paragraph" were especially
> influential at a time when the writing process was just getting
> underway. He told his readers that "we do not really teach our
> captive charges to write better--we merely expect them to." And then
> he showed us how to teach them. I learned so much about crafting
> sentences and paragraphs from him. And everything I know about
> restrictive/nonrestrictive punctuation and absolute phrases came from
> his chapters on those two subjects!
>
> The second edition of "Notes" came out in 1978, after his death. His
> wife, Bonnijean, added three more essays. But "Notes Toward a New
> Rhetoric: Nine Essays for Teachers" has been out of print for several
> decades.
>
> Until now.
>
> In July Don explained that he had acquired the rights to the work
> from Bonnijean. And thanks to Don, this wonderful book is now
> available again. He had it printed by Booklocker, a POD (print on
> demand) publisher.
>
> It's available from them: www.booklocker.com
>
> Just put in the title: Notes Toward a New Rhetoric" and click "buy
> paperback." I should tell you that you'll find a Martha blurb on the
> back cover. And it's a nice cover, indeed.
>
> And speaking of ATEG, I hope that you will make plans to join us this
> coming summer at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon--just a few
> miles from my hometown! If you've been thinking about a Western
> vacation, this is your chance! I've already made my airline
> reservations. The dates of the conference are July 11-12 (with a
> minicourse on the 9th and 10th.) Watch for registration information
> in the ATEG Newsletter.
>
> Martha
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:24:51 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ben Varner <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Northern Colorado
Subject: Interview Questions?
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We are going to hire a compositionist for the 2008-2009 academic
year and will conduct interviews of finalists within the next
few weeks.
I am on the search committee and want to be sure that the candidate
I recommend places a high value on the importance of grammar and
punctuation in the writing process.
The WPA Outcomes statement for first-year composition puts a
knowledge of such conventions rather low on the list:
http://members.cox.net/ipeckham/outcomes.htm
Any suggestions for questions for the interviews?
Ben Varner
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:12:53 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
In-Reply-To: A<[log in to unmask]>
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Ben,
It's quite possible to have someone who places a very high importance on
grammar (or anything else) but is still unable to connect it to teaching
practice in ways beneficial to students. I think you might get a good
idea of the candidate's grasp of the subject and how s/he can put that
knowledge into practice by starting with a realistic example or two and
asking how s/he would deal with it in a classroom setting, especially if
it's an example that lets you link whatever grammatical issue is
involved to a larger rhetorical issue.
For example, asking a candidate how s/he goes about discussing passive
sentences with students (or even better, starting with a piece of actual
writing with clumsy passives in it) could let you gauge not only whether
s/he knows what they are, but whether s/he knows that whether they're
"good" or not is tied to the context and purpose of writing. Of course,
this is all supposing that you have the time to pose that kind of
question and get a considered response.
Just from what personal experience I've had (as a candidate and as a
member of search committees) candidates show up already tense, and a
question like, "What do you think the role of grammar is in the
composition classroom?" is likely to trigger an "Ack! That's a loaded
question! They want some kind of code phrase! What do I do??!!"
response.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ben Varner
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 4:25 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Interview Questions?
We are going to hire a compositionist for the 2008-2009 academic
year and will conduct interviews of finalists within the next
few weeks.
I am on the search committee and want to be sure that the candidate
I recommend places a high value on the importance of grammar and
punctuation in the writing process.
The WPA Outcomes statement for first-year composition puts a
knowledge of such conventions rather low on the list:
http://members.cox.net/ipeckham/outcomes.htm
Any suggestions for questions for the interviews?
Ben Varner
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:01:29 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ben Varner <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Northern Colorado
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
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Hi, Bill--
Unfortunately, I won't have enough time to pose a question using
passive voice sentences. The question-and-answer period will be
conducted with the other members of the search committee and
will last for about an hour, each of us asking scripted questions of
the candidates.
I agree that simply asking "What is the role of grammar in the
composition classroom?" will be perceived as a loaded question.
But what kinds of non-threatening questions could be asked that
would give me and the other members of the committee a good assessment
of the candidate's views on this matter?
Any suggestions are welcome.
Ben Varner
> Ben,
>
> It's quite possible to have someone who places a very high importance on
> grammar (or anything else) but is still unable to connect it to teaching
> practice in ways beneficial to students. I think you might get a good
> idea of the candidate's grasp of the subject and how s/he can put that
> knowledge into practice by starting with a realistic example or two and
> asking how s/he would deal with it in a classroom setting, especially if
> it's an example that lets you link whatever grammatical issue is
> involved to a larger rhetorical issue.
>
> For example, asking a candidate how s/he goes about discussing passive
> sentences with students (or even better, starting with a piece of actual
> writing with clumsy passives in it) could let you gauge not only whether
> s/he knows what they are, but whether s/he knows that whether they're
> "good" or not is tied to the context and purpose of writing. Of course,
> this is all supposing that you have the time to pose that kind of
> question and get a considered response.
>
> Just from what personal experience I've had (as a candidate and as a
> member of search committees) candidates show up already tense, and a
> question like, "What do you think the role of grammar is in the
> composition classroom?" is likely to trigger an "Ack! That's a loaded
> question! They want some kind of code phrase! What do I do??!!"
> response.
>
> Bill Spruiell
> Dept. of English
> Central Michigan University
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:33:47 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Ben,
I've been in your position in a tangential way a number of times. As a
linguist in an English department with a strong writing/comp/rhet
program, I would attend the research and teaching presentations of
candidates as well as the open faculty reception and occasionally
accompany the candidate and another faculty member or two for a meal.
At the reception or over a meal I would bring up the topic of grammar
and explore the candidates views. What I would be looking for is
whether he or she was able to think about grammar in terms of options
for constructing meaning rather than in terms of formal correctness.
Very few candidates I've talked to have been able to. I would provide
my response to the committee on their survey forms, but not being a
search committee member I had little more input than that. I would
suggest though that you might use a faculty member such as a linguist to
explore these questions with the candidate in a less formal setting.
The fact that it's not a comp/rhet faculty member or a search committee
member nor is it a formal setting reduces the stress on the candidate
and does not so strongly suggest that the committee has an agenda the
candidate may not be aware of.
Herb
We are going to hire a compositionist for the 2008-2009 academic
year and will conduct interviews of finalists within the next
few weeks.
I am on the search committee and want to be sure that the candidate
I recommend places a high value on the importance of grammar and
punctuation in the writing process.
The WPA Outcomes statement for first-year composition puts a
knowledge of such conventions rather low on the list:
http://members.cox.net/ipeckham/outcomes.htm
Any suggestions for questions for the interviews?
Ben Varner
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:46:35 EST
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
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Herb,
I think you should ask directly about the candidates's work and experience.
I am sure you want someone who not only values grammar but also can teach it
well?
How do you teach grammar as a part of composition?
Where and how do you address it?
What grammatical areas do you find students need help with most these days?
How much does grammar count when you grade compositions?
How do you assess grammatical understanding of your students?
How would you explain the use of commas in a series to a student?
What have you found works with students who seem to have difficulty
understanding a grammatical concept?
How do you make grammar interesting as many students find it dull?
What do you think are the top 10 grammatical/mechanical topics students MUST
master before they graduate?
Ask to look at some compositions the candidates have corrected. Ask to see
samples of their own writing.
Etc.
Steve Cohen
The Allen-Stevenson School
**************
Start the year off right. Easy ways
to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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Herb,
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:24:01 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Linda Comerford <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Great questions, Steve! And here's a challenge for the rest of you: I'd be
very interested in knowing how all of you would answer his intriguing Top 10
question. Any takers?
Linda Comerford
317.786.6404
[log in to unmask]
www.comerfordconsulting.com Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:51:43 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
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I am reading this with great interest since I'll be on a search
committee shortly, in this case to hire someone to work with
nontraditional students, many of them ESL. Grammar would be an expected
topic there. This got me to wondering what kind of work the
"compositionist" will be doing--teaching beginning writers? Running a
writing center? Working on writing across the disciplines? Training
other writing teachers? All of these require different kinds of
experience and expertise.
Erica Lindemann ("A Rhetoric for Writing Teachers") presents the
progressive position fairly well-- "To teach English requires a second
kind of knowledge, a "conscious understanding" of linguistic
principles." Also "The more we know about how language works, the more
linguistic options we can suggest to students struggling to get the
words right...What teachers must know about written English is not
necessarily the same body of information that our students must be
required to memorize." The "required to memorize" phrasing seems a bit
loaded to me, and I don't like the second half of the statement. The
progressive view seems to be that students need to acquire language and
can do so without much conscious understanding about it. It seems to me
a revealing question to ask any writing teacher might be "What
knowledge about language do you find helpful in guiding students toward
maturity as writers; and how much of that knowledge is it useful to
pass on." I think the answer to that question might reveal quite a bit
about preparation and general approaches.
Steve's questions are very interesting. I think you may need a single
question that can get it started or be sufficient, in which case his
first question might do very well.
How does grammar fit. Exactly. The rest is detail.
Craig
Great questions, Steve! And here's a challenge for the rest of you: I'd
> be
> very interested in knowing how all of you would answer his intriguing Top
> 10
> question. Any takers?
>
>
> Linda Comerford
> 317.786.6404
> [log in to unmask]
> www.comerfordconsulting.com
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-1977139992-1200687429=:42007--
========================================================================Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:34:37 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "O'Sullivan, Brian P" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
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> I think you may need a single
>question that can get it started or be sufficient, in which case his
>first question might do very well.
> How does grammar fit. Exactly. The rest is detail.
I agree--when I was being interviewing for jobs as comp/rhet faculty member and writing center director, I was asked this question several times, and I didn't find it at all loaded (or unexpected).
Brian
Great questions, Steve! And here's a challenge for the rest of you: I'd
> be
> very interested in knowing how all of you would answer his intriguing Top
> 10
> question. Any takers?
>
>
> Linda Comerford
> 317.786.6404
> [log in to unmask]
> www.comerfordconsulting.com
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 17:08:11 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Interview Questions/#10-Top Ten Grammatical/Mechanical Topics
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I have a couple of "sideways" error types in my personal list - things
that don't typically show up on lists of errors, but which lead to
grammar issues; they're more in the "Orwell wing" of language glitches
than the "Warriner wing."
1. Not understanding that language choices have to take the context and
audience into account.
2. Choosing words and structures primarily on the basis of their
sounding fancy (e.g., automatically replacing "use" with "utilize")
3. Using words and structures without devoting any conscious thought to
them ("free gift!").
4. Losing track of choices you made earlier in the text (this handles
shifts, but also some usage issues).
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 3:17 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Interview Questions/#10-Top Ten Grammatical/Mechanical
Topics
Partially based on Connors & Lunsford's study and Hairston's hierarchy
of errors, these are my top 10, not necessarily listed in any order of
increasing or decreasing importance:
1) Fragments
2) Run-On or Fused Sentences
3) Subject-Verb agreement
4) Verb Tense (wrong tense or form)
5) Tense shift
6) Shift in Person
7) Pronoun usage
8) Comma Splices
9) Word Usage
10) Parallelism
I actually have a list of 15 grammatical/mechanical/usage concerns, but
these are the top ten, as requested (for what it's worth).
Best-
Carol Morrison
Adjunct Professor of English
Bucks County Community College
Delaware Valley College
Linda Comerford <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Great questions, Steve! And here's a challenge for the rest of
you: I'd be very interested in knowing how all of you would answer his
intriguing Top 10 question. Any takers?
Linda Comerford
317.786.6404
[log in to unmask]
www.comerfordconsulting.com
I have a couple of “sideways” error types in my personal
list – things that don’t typically show up on lists of errors, but
which lead to grammar issues; they’re more in the “Orwell wing”
of language glitches than the “Warriner wing.” 1. Not understanding that language choices have to take the context
and audience into account. 2. Choosing words and structures primarily on the basis
of their sounding fancy (e.g., automatically replacing “use” with “utilize”) 3. Using words and structures without devoting any conscious
thought to them (“free gift!”). 4. Losing track of choices you made earlier in the text (this
handles shifts, but also some usage issues). Bill Spruiell Dept. of English Central Michigan University From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol
Morrison Partially based on Connors & Lunsford's study and
Hairston's hierarchy of errors, these are my top 10, not necessarily listed in
any order of increasing or decreasing importance: 1) Fragments 2) Run-On or Fused Sentences 3) Subject-Verb agreement 4) Verb Tense (wrong tense or form) 5) Tense shift 6) Shift in Person 7) Pronoun usage 8) Comma Splices 9) Word Usage 10) Parallelism I actually have a list of 15 grammatical/mechanical/usage
concerns, but these are the top ten, as requested (for what it's worth). Best- Carol Morrison Adjunct Professor of English Bucks County Community College Delaware Valley College Great questions, Steve! And here's a challenge for the rest
of you: I'd be very interested in knowing how all of you would answer his
intriguing Top 10 question. Any takers? Linda
Comerford 317.786.6404 From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask] Herb, Visit ATEG's
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:38:45 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
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Steve,
I agree completely, and perhaps the preparation of comp/rhet PhDs has
changed in recent years so that your questions would be received
sympathetically and with a depth of knowledge that would make them worth
asking. In my experience, asking questions like yours of composition
faculty candidates has more commonly elicited a pained patience with a
senior faculty member who maintains the archaic and empirically
falsified belief that grammar has any relevance to the teaching of
writing. If the day has in fact come when the typical job candidate in
composition has a sufficiently sophisticated command of the subject to
address in an informed manner the questions you pose, we have been much
more successful than I could have hoped in changing the training of
composition faculty.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 1:47 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
Herb,
I think you should ask directly about the candidates's work and
experience. I am sure you want someone who not only values grammar but
also can teach it well?
How do you teach grammar as a part of composition?
Where and how do you address it?
What grammatical areas do you find students need help with most these
days?
How much does grammar count when you grade compositions?
How do you assess grammatical understanding of your students?
How would you explain the use of commas in a series to a student?
What have you found works with students who seem to have difficulty
understanding a grammatical concept?
How do you make grammar interesting as many students find it dull?
What do you think are the top 10 grammatical/mechanical topics students
MUST master before they graduate?
Ask to look at some compositions the candidates have corrected. Ask to
see samples of their own writing.
Etc.
Steve Cohen
The Allen-Stevenson School
**************
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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Steve, I agree completely, and perhaps the preparation of comp/rhet
PhDs has changed in recent years so that your questions would be received sympathetically
and with a depth of knowledge that would make them worth asking. In my
experience, asking questions like yours of composition faculty candidates has
more commonly elicited a pained patience with a senior faculty member who
maintains the archaic and empirically falsified belief that grammar has any
relevance to the teaching of writing. If the day has in fact come when
the typical job candidate in composition has a sufficiently sophisticated command
of the subject to address in an informed manner the questions you pose, we have
been much more successful than I could have hoped in changing the training of
composition faculty. Herb From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask] Herb, To join or
leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 22:05:27 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
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It would be very nice if our colleagues in composition had what he proposes.
>>> "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> 01/18/08 8:38 PM >>>
Steve,
If the day has in fact come when the typical job candidate in
composition has a sufficiently sophisticated command of the subject to
address in an informed manner the questions you pose, we have been much
more successful than I could have hoped in changing the training of
composition faculty.
*********
My reading of the composition literature is that there is very little interest in any type kind of developmental perspective.
When they make reference to development, they cite the only thing they know about L2 studies: Krashen claims that under the right conditions, learners acquire grammar without explicit instruction.
Bob Yates
University of Central Missouri
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 10:53:00 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
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Herb,
My sense is that things haven't changed very much--see, for example,
Susan Peck Macdonald's article in a recent 3 C's on the Erasure of
Language, which points to a progressive loss of knowledge about
language within the discipline, largely because of the widespread
belief that teaching grammar is harmful and/or that language is learned
without direct instruction. Depending on the kind of student (or range)
you are expected to teach, there may be a sense that "error" has to be
attended to, but there's a sense that error correction is mundane and
not at all what composition (or real writing) is all about. In many
places, saying you have a great interest in grammar may evoke the same
sort of misunderstandings you mention below--it's an old way, not a new
one, often a reductive understanding of writing and the teaching of
writing, at least in their minds. "Correcting" can replace revising and
often does.
If someone asked me how grammar fits within composition, I would talk
about that history--how process approaches had to do war with product
and error focused approaches, but that now we need to integrate an
approach to grammar in harmony with higher order concerns, one that
pays respect to the meaningfulness of form. Effective, purposeful
writing happens in and through the sentence, and it is important for
sentence level choice to be in harmony with the evolving purposes of
the text; once we understand that, then grammar and writing are no
longer at war. >
Even if writing within conventions is at issue, I think knowlege about
language is important; I don't think this mastery is simply acquired.
On either end, as questioner or as candidate, you are walking through a
minefield. It is made dangerous largely because Macdonald is right;
most people in the discipline know very little about language.
Craig
Steve,
>
>
>
> I agree completely, and perhaps the preparation of comp/rhet PhDs has
> changed in recent years so that your questions would be received
> sympathetically and with a depth of knowledge that would make them worth
> asking. In my experience, asking questions like yours of composition
> faculty candidates has more commonly elicited a pained patience with a
> senior faculty member who maintains the archaic and empirically
> falsified belief that grammar has any relevance to the teaching of
> writing. If the day has in fact come when the typical job candidate in
> composition has a sufficiently sophisticated command of the subject to
> address in an informed manner the questions you pose, we have been much
> more successful than I could have hoped in changing the training of
> composition faculty.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 1:47 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
>
>
>
> Herb,
>
> I think you should ask directly about the candidates's work and
> experience. I am sure you want someone who not only values grammar but
> also can teach it well?
>
> How do you teach grammar as a part of composition?
> Where and how do you address it?
> What grammatical areas do you find students need help with most these
> days?
> How much does grammar count when you grade compositions?
> How do you assess grammatical understanding of your students?
> How would you explain the use of commas in a series to a student?
> What have you found works with students who seem to have difficulty
> understanding a grammatical concept?
> How do you make grammar interesting as many students find it dull?
> What do you think are the top 10 grammatical/mechanical topics students
> MUST master before they graduate?
>
> Ask to look at some compositions the candidates have corrected. Ask to
> see samples of their own writing.
>
> Etc.
>
> Steve Cohen
> The Allen-Stevenson School
>
>
> **************
> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
> http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:27:24 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "O'Sullivan, Brian P" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
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Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of English
Director of the Writing Center
St. Mary’s College of Maryland
Montgomery Hall 50
18952 E. Fisher Rd.
St. Mary’s City, Maryland
20686
240-895-4242
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Craig Hancock
Sent: Sat 1/19/2008 10:53 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
Herb,
My sense is that things haven't changed very much--see, for example,
Susan Peck Macdonald's article in a recent 3 C's on the Erasure of
Language, which points to a progressive loss of knowledge about
language within the discipline, largely because of the widespread
belief that teaching grammar is harmful and/or that language is learned
without direct instruction. Depending on the kind of student (or range)
you are expected to teach, there may be a sense that "error" has to be
attended to, but there's a sense that error correction is mundane and
not at all what composition (or real writing) is all about. In many
places, saying you have a great interest in grammar may evoke the same
sort of misunderstandings you mention below--it's an old way, not a new
one, often a reductive understanding of writing and the teaching of
writing, at least in their minds. "Correcting" can replace revising and
often does.
If someone asked me how grammar fits within composition, I would talk
about that history--how process approaches had to do war with product
and error focused approaches, but that now we need to integrate an
approach to grammar in harmony with higher order concerns, one that
pays respect to the meaningfulness of form. Effective, purposeful
writing happens in and through the sentence, and it is important for
sentence level choice to be in harmony with the evolving purposes of
the text; once we understand that, then grammar and writing are no
longer at war. >
Even if writing within conventions is at issue, I think knowlege about
language is important; I don't think this mastery is simply acquired.
On either end, as questioner or as candidate, you are walking through a
minefield. It is made dangerous largely because Macdonald is right;
most people in the discipline know very little about language.
Craig
Steve,
>
>
>
> I agree completely, and perhaps the preparation of comp/rhet PhDs has
> changed in recent years so that your questions would be received
> sympathetically and with a depth of knowledge that would make them worth
> asking. In my experience, asking questions like yours of composition
> faculty candidates has more commonly elicited a pained patience with a
> senior faculty member who maintains the archaic and empirically
> falsified belief that grammar has any relevance to the teaching of
> writing. If the day has in fact come when the typical job candidate in
> composition has a sufficiently sophisticated command of the subject to
> address in an informed manner the questions you pose, we have been much
> more successful than I could have hoped in changing the training of
> composition faculty.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 1:47 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
>
>
>
> Herb,
>
> I think you should ask directly about the candidates's work and
> experience. I am sure you want someone who not only values grammar but
> also can teach it well?
>
> How do you teach grammar as a part of composition?
> Where and how do you address it?
> What grammatical areas do you find students need help with most these
> days?
> How much does grammar count when you grade compositions?
> How do you assess grammatical understanding of your students?
> How would you explain the use of commas in a series to a student?
> What have you found works with students who seem to have difficulty
> understanding a grammatical concept?
> How do you make grammar interesting as many students find it dull?
> What do you think are the top 10 grammatical/mechanical topics students
> MUST master before they graduate?
>
> Ask to look at some compositions the candidates have corrected. Ask to
> see samples of their own writing.
>
> Etc.
>
> Steve Cohen
> The Allen-Stevenson School
>
>
> **************
> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
> http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:39:34 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "O'Sullivan, Brian P" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
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Maybe the Macdonald article would actually be a good hook for an interview question--e.g., "There's been a recent argument that matters of language and grammar don't get enough attention in composition and rhetoric . Do you agree with this? If not, why not, and if so, how do you address issues of language and grammar in the classroom? And how do you integrate grammar instruction with instruction in argument?" This way, the candidate would know that your question is informed by recent thinking in the field, and not just by some kind of grouchy resistance to modern composition pedagogy.
I would guess that not much has changed in terms of the amount of grammar that is actually taught and studied in graduate programs in composition, but there may be more recognition dawning among graduate students that such studies are desirable. So even if none of the candidates show deep knowledge of grammar, interviewers might be able to get a sense of which candidates are eager to develop further in this area.
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Craig Hancock
Sent: Sat 1/19/2008 10:53 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
Herb,
My sense is that things haven't changed very much--see, for example,
Susan Peck Macdonald's article in a recent 3 C's on the Erasure of
Language, which points to a progressive loss of knowledge about
language within the discipline, largely because of the widespread
belief that teaching grammar is harmful and/or that language is learned
without direct instruction. Depending on the kind of student (or range)
you are expected to teach, there may be a sense that "error" has to be
attended to, but there's a sense that error correction is mundane and
not at all what composition (or real writing) is all about. In many
places, saying you have a great interest in grammar may evoke the same
sort of misunderstandings you mention below--it's an old way, not a new
one, often a reductive understanding of writing and the teaching of
writing, at least in their minds. "Correcting" can replace revising and
often does.
If someone asked me how grammar fits within composition, I would talk
about that history--how process approaches had to do war with product
and error focused approaches, but that now we need to integrate an
approach to grammar in harmony with higher order concerns, one that
pays respect to the meaningfulness of form. Effective, purposeful
writing happens in and through the sentence, and it is important for
sentence level choice to be in harmony with the evolving purposes of
the text; once we understand that, then grammar and writing are no
longer at war. >
Even if writing within conventions is at issue, I think knowlege about
language is important; I don't think this mastery is simply acquired.
On either end, as questioner or as candidate, you are walking through a
minefield. It is made dangerous largely because Macdonald is right;
most people in the discipline know very little about language.
Craig
Steve,
>
>
>
> I agree completely, and perhaps the preparation of comp/rhet PhDs has
> changed in recent years so that your questions would be received
> sympathetically and with a depth of knowledge that would make them worth
> asking. In my experience, asking questions like yours of composition
> faculty candidates has more commonly elicited a pained patience with a
> senior faculty member who maintains the archaic and empirically
> falsified belief that grammar has any relevance to the teaching of
> writing. If the day has in fact come when the typical job candidate in
> composition has a sufficiently sophisticated command of the subject to
> address in an informed manner the questions you pose, we have been much
> more successful than I could have hoped in changing the training of
> composition faculty.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 1:47 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
>
>
>
> Herb,
>
> I think you should ask directly about the candidates's work and
> experience. I am sure you want someone who not only values grammar but
> also can teach it well?
>
> How do you teach grammar as a part of composition?
> Where and how do you address it?
> What grammatical areas do you find students need help with most these
> days?
> How much does grammar count when you grade compositions?
> How do you assess grammatical understanding of your students?
> How would you explain the use of commas in a series to a student?
> What have you found works with students who seem to have difficulty
> understanding a grammatical concept?
> How do you make grammar interesting as many students find it dull?
> What do you think are the top 10 grammatical/mechanical topics students
> MUST master before they graduate?
>
> Ask to look at some compositions the candidates have corrected. Ask to
> see samples of their own writing.
>
> Etc.
>
> Steve Cohen
> The Allen-Stevenson School
>
>
> **************
> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
> http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:44:46 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Don Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Christensen's essays
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I am so appreciative of Martha's recent posting about my republication of
the essays of Francis Christensen, called "Notes toward a New Rhetoric." For
those of you who are not familiar with his work, or who would like a
refresher, below is a link to one of the essays that Martha specifically
mentioned: "A Generative Rhetoric of the Sentence." In it Christensen
defines his four central principles of mature style: addition, direction of
movement, texture, and levels of generality. He also introduces his very
powerful numbering system for illustrating the interplay of the free
modifiers, a system that can be taught to students from middle school
through graduate school. I like to tell my high school kids that the eight
most important free modifiers are like the notes of an octave in music, and
with them they can produce a symphony of writing.
www.booklocker.com/pdf/3213s.pdf
I hope you enjoy it.
--
Don Stewart
Write for College
______________________
Keeper of the memory and method
of Dr. Francis Christensen
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I am so appreciative of Martha's recent posting about my republication of the essays of Francis Christensen, called "Notes toward a New Rhetoric." For those of you who are not familiar with his work, or who would like a refresher, below is a link to one of the essays that Martha specifically mentioned: "A Generative Rhetoric of the Sentence." In it Christensen defines his four central principles of mature style: addition, direction of movement, texture, and levels of generality. He also introduces his very powerful numbering system for illustrating the interplay of the free modifiers, a system that can be taught to students from middle school through graduate school. I like to tell my high school kids that the eight most important free modifiers are like the notes of an octave in music, and with them they can produce a symphony of writing.
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_Part_3361_14124222.1200847486143--
========================================================================Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:35:00 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ben Varner <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Northern Colorado
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Many thanks to Bill Spruiell, Herb Stahlke, Steve Cohen,
Craig Hancock, Bob Yates, and Brian O'Sullivan for their
useful suggestions regarding interview questions.
I have considered a number of possible questions as a
result of your comments and will send the list the
questions I asked as well as a brief summary of the
candidates' replies.
Ben Varner
University of Northern Colorado
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:58:07 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 18 Jan 2008 to 19 Jan 2008 (#2008-12)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I agree with the three messages; however, Steve Cohen's ten questions are
superb. I only wish that my children had had the opportunity to attend
Allen-Stevenson. I'll confess that I was ignorant of that school until
this set of messages, having been out of the prep scene a while. My
prep school did indeed imbue students with an understanding and appreciation
of grammar as a core knowledge in reading and speaking as well as writing;
that was 40 years ago; however, I doubt seriously that the Academy has
lowered its standards. When I was in grammar school, I told my parents that
I wished to attend Boston Latin School because I imagined that all of the
courses would be in Latin, which I wished to learn. But I was in the Deep
South and in a family of modest means. At least I was able to attend the
top school in Florida: our 142 seniors received half of the National Merit
Finalist awards for all the schools in Central Florida.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 12:02 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 18 Jan 2008 to 19 Jan 2008 (#2008-12)
There are 3 messages totalling 461 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Interview Questions? (3)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 10:53:00 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
Herb,
My sense is that things haven't changed very much--see, for example,
Susan Peck Macdonald's article in a recent 3 C's on the Erasure of
Language, which points to a progressive loss of knowledge about
language within the discipline, largely because of the widespread
belief that teaching grammar is harmful and/or that language is learned
without direct instruction. Depending on the kind of student (or range)
you are expected to teach, there may be a sense that "error" has to be
attended to, but there's a sense that error correction is mundane and
not at all what composition (or real writing) is all about. In many
places, saying you have a great interest in grammar may evoke the same
sort of misunderstandings you mention below--it's an old way, not a new
one, often a reductive understanding of writing and the teaching of
writing, at least in their minds. "Correcting" can replace revising and
often does.
If someone asked me how grammar fits within composition, I would talk
about that history--how process approaches had to do war with product
and error focused approaches, but that now we need to integrate an
approach to grammar in harmony with higher order concerns, one that
pays respect to the meaningfulness of form. Effective, purposeful
writing happens in and through the sentence, and it is important for
sentence level choice to be in harmony with the evolving purposes of
the text; once we understand that, then grammar and writing are no
longer at war. >
Even if writing within conventions is at issue, I think knowlege about
language is important; I don't think this mastery is simply acquired.
On either end, as questioner or as candidate, you are walking through a
minefield. It is made dangerous largely because Macdonald is right;
most people in the discipline know very little about language.
Craig
Steve,
>
>
>
> I agree completely, and perhaps the preparation of comp/rhet PhDs has
> changed in recent years so that your questions would be received
> sympathetically and with a depth of knowledge that would make them worth
> asking. In my experience, asking questions like yours of composition
> faculty candidates has more commonly elicited a pained patience with a
> senior faculty member who maintains the archaic and empirically
> falsified belief that grammar has any relevance to the teaching of
> writing. If the day has in fact come when the typical job candidate in
> composition has a sufficiently sophisticated command of the subject to
> address in an informed manner the questions you pose, we have been much
> more successful than I could have hoped in changing the training of
> composition faculty.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 1:47 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
>
>
>
> Herb,
>
> I think you should ask directly about the candidates's work and
> experience. I am sure you want someone who not only values grammar but
> also can teach it well?
>
> How do you teach grammar as a part of composition?
> Where and how do you address it?
> What grammatical areas do you find students need help with most these
> days?
> How much does grammar count when you grade compositions?
> How do you assess grammatical understanding of your students?
> How would you explain the use of commas in a series to a student?
> What have you found works with students who seem to have difficulty
> understanding a grammatical concept?
> How do you make grammar interesting as many students find it dull?
> What do you think are the top 10 grammatical/mechanical topics students
> MUST master before they graduate?
>
> Ask to look at some compositions the candidates have corrected. Ask to
> see samples of their own writing.
>
> Etc.
>
> Steve Cohen
> The Allen-Stevenson School
>
>
> **************
> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
> http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:27:24 -0500
From: "O'Sullivan, Brian P" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of English
Director of the Writing Center
St. Mary’s College of Maryland
Montgomery Hall 50
18952 E. Fisher Rd.
St. Mary’s City, Maryland
20686
240-895-4242
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Craig Hancock
Sent: Sat 1/19/2008 10:53 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
Herb,
My sense is that things haven't changed very much--see, for example,
Susan Peck Macdonald's article in a recent 3 C's on the Erasure of
Language, which points to a progressive loss of knowledge about
language within the discipline, largely because of the widespread
belief that teaching grammar is harmful and/or that language is learned
without direct instruction. Depending on the kind of student (or range)
you are expected to teach, there may be a sense that "error" has to be
attended to, but there's a sense that error correction is mundane and
not at all what composition (or real writing) is all about. In many
places, saying you have a great interest in grammar may evoke the same
sort of misunderstandings you mention below--it's an old way, not a new
one, often a reductive understanding of writing and the teaching of
writing, at least in their minds. "Correcting" can replace revising and
often does.
If someone asked me how grammar fits within composition, I would talk
about that history--how process approaches had to do war with product
and error focused approaches, but that now we need to integrate an
approach to grammar in harmony with higher order concerns, one that
pays respect to the meaningfulness of form. Effective, purposeful
writing happens in and through the sentence, and it is important for
sentence level choice to be in harmony with the evolving purposes of
the text; once we understand that, then grammar and writing are no
longer at war. >
Even if writing within conventions is at issue, I think knowlege about
language is important; I don't think this mastery is simply acquired.
On either end, as questioner or as candidate, you are walking through a
minefield. It is made dangerous largely because Macdonald is right;
most people in the discipline know very little about language.
Craig
Steve,
>
>
>
> I agree completely, and perhaps the preparation of comp/rhet PhDs has
> changed in recent years so that your questions would be received
> sympathetically and with a depth of knowledge that would make them worth
> asking. In my experience, asking questions like yours of composition
> faculty candidates has more commonly elicited a pained patience with a
> senior faculty member who maintains the archaic and empirically
> falsified belief that grammar has any relevance to the teaching of
> writing. If the day has in fact come when the typical job candidate in
> composition has a sufficiently sophisticated command of the subject to
> address in an informed manner the questions you pose, we have been much
> more successful than I could have hoped in changing the training of
> composition faculty.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 1:47 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
>
>
>
> Herb,
>
> I think you should ask directly about the candidates's work and
> experience. I am sure you want someone who not only values grammar but
> also can teach it well?
>
> How do you teach grammar as a part of composition?
> Where and how do you address it?
> What grammatical areas do you find students need help with most these
> days?
> How much does grammar count when you grade compositions?
> How do you assess grammatical understanding of your students?
> How would you explain the use of commas in a series to a student?
> What have you found works with students who seem to have difficulty
> understanding a grammatical concept?
> How do you make grammar interesting as many students find it dull?
> What do you think are the top 10 grammatical/mechanical topics students
> MUST master before they graduate?
>
> Ask to look at some compositions the candidates have corrected. Ask to
> see samples of their own writing.
>
> Etc.
>
> Steve Cohen
> The Allen-Stevenson School
>
>
> **************
> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
> http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:39:34 -0500
From: "O'Sullivan, Brian P" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
Maybe the Macdonald article would actually be a good hook for an interview question--e.g., "There's been a recent argument that matters of language and grammar don't get enough attention in composition and rhetoric . Do you agree with this? If not, why not, and if so, how do you address issues of language and grammar in the classroom? And how do you integrate grammar instruction with instruction in argument?" This way, the candidate would know that your question is informed by recent thinking in the field, and not just by some kind of grouchy resistance to modern composition pedagogy.
I would guess that not much has changed in terms of the amount of grammar that is actually taught and studied in graduate programs in composition, but there may be more recognition dawning among graduate students that such studies are desirable. So even if none of the candidates show deep knowledge of grammar, interviewers might be able to get a sense of which candidates are eager to develop further in this area.
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Craig Hancock
Sent: Sat 1/19/2008 10:53 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
Herb,
My sense is that things haven't changed very much--see, for example,
Susan Peck Macdonald's article in a recent 3 C's on the Erasure of
Language, which points to a progressive loss of knowledge about
language within the discipline, largely because of the widespread
belief that teaching grammar is harmful and/or that language is learned
without direct instruction. Depending on the kind of student (or range)
you are expected to teach, there may be a sense that "error" has to be
attended to, but there's a sense that error correction is mundane and
not at all what composition (or real writing) is all about. In many
places, saying you have a great interest in grammar may evoke the same
sort of misunderstandings you mention below--it's an old way, not a new
one, often a reductive understanding of writing and the teaching of
writing, at least in their minds. "Correcting" can replace revising and
often does.
If someone asked me how grammar fits within composition, I would talk
about that history--how process approaches had to do war with product
and error focused approaches, but that now we need to integrate an
approach to grammar in harmony with higher order concerns, one that
pays respect to the meaningfulness of form. Effective, purposeful
writing happens in and through the sentence, and it is important for
sentence level choice to be in harmony with the evolving purposes of
the text; once we understand that, then grammar and writing are no
longer at war. >
Even if writing within conventions is at issue, I think knowlege about
language is important; I don't think this mastery is simply acquired.
On either end, as questioner or as candidate, you are walking through a
minefield. It is made dangerous largely because Macdonald is right;
most people in the discipline know very little about language.
Craig
Steve,
>
>
>
> I agree completely, and perhaps the preparation of comp/rhet PhDs has
> changed in recent years so that your questions would be received
> sympathetically and with a depth of knowledge that would make them worth
> asking. In my experience, asking questions like yours of composition
> faculty candidates has more commonly elicited a pained patience with a
> senior faculty member who maintains the archaic and empirically
> falsified belief that grammar has any relevance to the teaching of
> writing. If the day has in fact come when the typical job candidate in
> composition has a sufficiently sophisticated command of the subject to
> address in an informed manner the questions you pose, we have been much
> more successful than I could have hoped in changing the training of
> composition faculty.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 1:47 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
>
>
>
> Herb,
>
> I think you should ask directly about the candidates's work and
> experience. I am sure you want someone who not only values grammar but
> also can teach it well?
>
> How do you teach grammar as a part of composition?
> Where and how do you address it?
> What grammatical areas do you find students need help with most these
> days?
> How much does grammar count when you grade compositions?
> How do you assess grammatical understanding of your students?
> How would you explain the use of commas in a series to a student?
> What have you found works with students who seem to have difficulty
> understanding a grammatical concept?
> How do you make grammar interesting as many students find it dull?
> What do you think are the top 10 grammatical/mechanical topics students
> MUST master before they graduate?
>
> Ask to look at some compositions the candidates have corrected. Ask to
> see samples of their own writing.
>
> Etc.
>
> Steve Cohen
> The Allen-Stevenson School
>
>
> **************
> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
> http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 18 Jan 2008 to 19 Jan 2008 (#2008-12)
**********************************************************
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 15:38:48 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Unresolved comparative "so"
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Dear All:
I'm trying to figure out whether my reactions to a particular
construction are based on my age (incipient geezerhood), or my native
dialect (Inland Southern). It involves use of comparative "so" without
an accompanying "that" clause, roughly equivalent to "very":
A: "Thanks so much"
B: "It was so hot."
I hear (A) very frequently, but I don't remember hearing it when I was
younger. I also hear expressions like (B) from my students, although not
nearly as frequently as (A), which has become a set expression. I can
almost make (B) work in my own speech, but only with a lot of emphasis
on the "so" and an emphatic drop at the end of the sentence, but this is
not always how my students use it. Somehow, I can't manage (A) at all -
any attempt and I can tell it's coming out as sarcasm ("Oh, now my leg's
broken. Thanks SO much.").
I've checked the American Dialect Society listserv archive, but I either
used the wrong search terms, or there hasn't been much discussion of it.
My attention was particularly drawn to it by a recent political robocall
(I live in Michigan) in which the candidate (who is older than I am) not
only used (A), but managed to sound natural while doing it.
Thanks!
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
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Dear All: I’m trying to figure out whether my reactions to a
particular construction are based on my age (incipient geezerhood), or my
native dialect (Inland Southern). It involves use of comparative “so”
without an accompanying “that” clause, roughly equivalent to “very”: A: “Thanks
so much” B: “It
was so hot.” I hear (A) very frequently, but I don’t remember hearing
it when I was younger. I also hear expressions like (B) from my students,
although not nearly as frequently as (A), which has become a set expression. I
can almost make (B) work in my own speech, but only with a lot of emphasis on
the “so” and an emphatic drop at the end of the sentence, but this
is not always how my students use it. Somehow, I can’t manage (A) at all –
any attempt and I can tell it’s coming out as sarcasm (“Oh, now my
leg’s broken. Thanks SO much.”). I’ve checked the American Dialect Society listserv
archive, but I either used the wrong search terms, or there hasn’t been
much discussion of it. My attention was particularly drawn to it by a recent
political robocall (I live in Michigan) in which the candidate (who is older
than I am) not only used (A), but managed to sound natural while doing it. Thanks! Bill Spruiell Dept. of English Central Michigan University
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:29:21 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
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Bill:
I Googled "thanks so much" in parentheses and got 17 million hits. Then
I added 1950 (randomly chosen date) and looked at some newspaper
archives where the phrase appeared. Here is one example from an Iowa
newspaper in 1950
Bill: I Googled “thanks so much” in parentheses
and got 17 million hits. Then I added 1950 (randomly chosen date) and looked at
some newspaper archives where the phrase appeared. Here is
one example from an Iowa newspaper in 1950. Clearly, it’s not a new
expression. Dick Veit ________________________________ Richard Veit From: Dear
All: I’m
trying to figure out whether my reactions to a particular construction are
based on my age (incipient geezerhood), or my native dialect (Inland
Southern). It involves use of comparative “so” without an
accompanying “that” clause, roughly equivalent to
“very”:
A:
“Thanks so much”
B: “It
was so hot.” I
hear (A) very frequently, but I don’t remember hearing it when I was
younger. I also hear expressions like (B) from my students, although not nearly
as frequently as (A), which has become a set expression. I can almost make (B)
work in my own speech, but only with a lot of emphasis on the “so”
and an emphatic drop at the end of the sentence, but this is not always how my
students use it. Somehow, I can’t manage (A) at all – any attempt
and I can tell it’s coming out as sarcasm (“Oh, now my leg’s
broken. Thanks SO much.”). I’ve
checked the American Dialect Society listserv archive, but I either used the
wrong search terms, or there hasn’t been much discussion of it. My
attention was particularly drawn to it by a recent political robocall (I live
in Thanks!
Bill
Spruiell Dept.
of English
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:58:37 -0500
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<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
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Dick,
This is by no means the first time that what I thought was an odd usage
turned out to be the norm, or vice versa ("What do you mean 'might
should' sounds funny?"). I wonder whether I can blame this one on
dialect, or whether (instead) I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's
trap of trying to foist my idiolect on the universe.
Thanks, er, muchly,
Bill Spruiell
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:29 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
Bill:
I Googled "thanks so much" in parentheses and got 17 million hits. Then
I added 1950 (randomly chosen date) and looked at some newspaper
archives where the phrase appeared. Here is one example from an Iowa
newspaper in 1950
Dick, This is by no means the first
time that what I thought was an odd usage turned out to be the norm, or vice
versa (“What do you mean ‘might should’ sounds funny?”). I wonder whether I
can blame this one on dialect, or whether (instead) I’ve fallen into the old grammar
pedant’s trap of trying to foist my idiolect on the universe. Thanks, er, muchly, Bill Spruiell From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit,
Richard Bill: I Googled “thanks so much” in parentheses and got 17 million hits.
Then I added 1950 (randomly chosen date) and looked at some newspaper archives
where the phrase appeared. Here is
one example from an Iowa newspaper in 1950. Clearly, it’s not a new
expression. Dick Veit ________________________________ Richard
Veit From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell,
William C Dear All: I’m trying to figure out whether my reactions to a particular
construction are based on my age (incipient geezerhood), or my native dialect
(Inland Southern). It involves use of comparative “so” without an
accompanying “that” clause, roughly equivalent to “very”:
A: “Thanks so
much”
B: “It was so
hot.” I hear (A) very frequently, but I don’t remember hearing it
when I was younger. I also hear expressions like (B) from my students, although
not nearly as frequently as (A), which has become a set expression. I can
almost make (B) work in my own speech, but only with a lot of emphasis on the
“so” and an emphatic drop at the end of the sentence, but this is not always
how my students use it. Somehow, I can’t manage (A) at all – any attempt and I
can tell it’s coming out as sarcasm (“Oh, now my leg’s broken. Thanks SO
much.”). I’ve checked the American Dialect Society listserv archive,
but I either used the wrong search terms, or there hasn’t been much discussion
of it. My attention was particularly drawn to it by a recent political robocall
(I live in Michigan) in which the candidate (who is older than I am) not only
used (A), but managed to sound natural while doing it. Thanks! Bill Spruiell Dept. of English Central Michigan University To
join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV
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the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:57:14 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: helene hoover <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Well, Bill, I'm with you. I always tell my students that they need to finish the comparison with the comparative "so." I usually use the example, "She was SO excited, she wet her pants," and they tend to remember that one. Of course, they don't always remember to incorporate the ending in their writing, but memories are fairly easily jogged if I mention it again! Helene Hoover
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:58:37 -0500From: [log in to unmask]: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"To: [log in to unmask]
Dick,
This is by no means the first time that what I thought was an odd usage turned out to be the norm, or vice versa (“What do you mean ‘might should’ sounds funny?”). I wonder whether I can blame this one on dialect, or whether (instead) I’ve fallen into the old grammar pedant’s trap of trying to foist my idiolect on the universe.
Thanks, er, muchly,
Bill Spruiell
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, RichardSent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:29 PMTo: [log in to unmask]: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
Bill:
I Googled “thanks so much” in parentheses and got 17 million hits. Then I added 1950 (randomly chosen date) and looked at some newspaper archives where the phrase appeared. Here is one example from an Iowa newspaper in 1950. Clearly, it’s not a new expression.
Dick Veit
________________________________
Richard VeitDepartment of EnglishUniversity of North Carolina Wilmington
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William CSent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:39 PMTo: [log in to unmask]: Unresolved comparative "so"
Dear All:
I’m trying to figure out whether my reactions to a particular construction are based on my age (incipient geezerhood), or my native dialect (Inland Southern). It involves use of comparative “so” without an accompanying “that” clause, roughly equivalent to “very”:
A: “Thanks so much”
B: “It was so hot.”
I hear (A) very frequently, but I don’t remember hearing it when I was younger. I also hear expressions like (B) from my students, although not nearly as frequently as (A), which has become a set expression. I can almost make (B) work in my own speech, but only with a lot of emphasis on the “so” and an emphatic drop at the end of the sentence, but this is not always how my students use it. Somehow, I can’t manage (A) at all – any attempt and I can tell it’s coming out as sarcasm (“Oh, now my leg’s broken. Thanks SO much.”).
I’ve checked the American Dialect Society listserv archive, but I either used the wrong search terms, or there hasn’t been much discussion of it. My attention was particularly drawn to it by a recent political robocall (I live in Michigan) in which the candidate (who is older than I am) not only used (A), but managed to sound natural while doing it.
Thanks!
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
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Dick, This is by no means the first time that what I thought was an odd usage turned out to be the norm, or vice versa (“What do you mean ‘might should’ sounds funny?”). I wonder whether I can blame this one on dialect, or whether (instead) I’ve fallen into the old grammar pedant’s trap of trying to foist my idiolect on the universe. Thanks, er, muchly, Bill Spruiell From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard Bill: I Googled “thanks so much” in parentheses and got 17 million hits. Then I added 1950 (randomly chosen date) and looked at some newspaper archives where the phrase appeared. Here is one example from an Iowa newspaper in 1950. Clearly, it’s not a new expression. Dick Veit ________________________________ Richard Veit From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C Dear All: I’m trying to figure out whether my reactions to a particular construction are based on my age (incipient geezerhood), or my native dialect (Inland Southern). It involves use of comparative “so” without an accompanying “that” clause, roughly equivalent to “very”: A: “Thanks so much” B: “It was so hot.” I hear (A) very frequently, but I don’t remember hearing it when I was younger. I also hear expressions like (B) from my students, although not nearly as frequently as (A), which has become a set expression. I can almost make (B) work in my own speech, but only with a lot of emphasis on the “so” and an emphatic drop at the end of the sentence, but this is not always how my students use it. Somehow, I can’t manage (A) at all – any attempt and I can tell it’s coming out as sarcasm (“Oh, now my leg’s broken. Thanks SO much.”). I’ve checked the American Dialect Society listserv archive, but I either used the wrong search terms, or there hasn’t been much discussion of it. My attention was particularly drawn to it by a recent political robocall (I live in Michigan) in which the candidate (who is older than I am) not only used (A), but managed to sound natural while doing it. Thanks! Bill Spruiell Dept. of English Central Michigan University To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:35:46 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Helene, Bill, and others,
The OED has record of "so" without complement way back to Old English
and carrying through.
Sometimes this occurs with negative or interrogative clauses. Here's
one from Middle English, fromChaucer: "And if a man wol aske him prively
Why they been clothed so unthriftily." From 1850: "What am I to say in
answer to conduct so preposterous?"
You might be able to make a case that it means something like "to
such an extent". This, from wordsworth: "A voice so thrilling ne'er was
heard."
But the OED also lists it "in affirmative clauses, tending to become
a mere intensive without comparative force, and sometimes emphasized in
speaking and writing." "Among the floures, so swete of ayre" (1503).
Dickens (1837): My dear brother is so good."
It also intensifies adjectives, often followed by a... "so great a
blunder". "so boldfaced a lie."
It can also intensify verbs: "What payne doth thee so appall?"
(spencer, 1579).
The word is very, very rich and interesting, so give yourself some
time if you want to look it up. (I didn't think it would be SO rich.")
Craig
helene hoover wrote:
> Well, Bill, I'm with you. I always tell my students that they need to
> finish the comparison with the comparative "so." I usually use the
> example, "She was SO excited, she wet her pants," and they tend to
> remember that one. Of course, they don't always remember to
> incorporate the ending in their writing, but memories are fairly
> easily jogged if I mention it again! Helene Hoover
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:58:37 -0500
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Dick,
>
>
>
> This is by no means the first time that what I thought was an odd
> usage turned out to be the norm, or vice versa (“What do you mean
> ‘might should’ sounds funny?”). I wonder whether I can blame this
> one on dialect, or whether (instead) I’ve fallen into the old
> grammar pedant’s trap of trying to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>
>
>
> Thanks, er, muchly,
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Veit, Richard
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:29 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
>
>
>
> Bill:
>
>
>
> I Googled “thanks so much” in parentheses and got 17 million hits.
> Then I added 1950 (randomly chosen date) and looked at some
> newspaper archives where the phrase appeared. Here is one example
> from an Iowa newspaper in 1950
> Dear All: I’m trying to figure out whether my reactions to a
particular construction are based on my age (incipient geezerhood), or my
native dialect (Inland Southern). It involves use of comparative “so”
without an accompanying “that” clause, roughly equivalent to “very”: A: “Thanks
so much” B: “It
was so hot.” I hear (A) very frequently, but I don’t remember hearing
it when I was younger. I also hear expressions like (B) from my students,
although not nearly as frequently as (A), which has become a set expression. I
can almost make (B) work in my own speech, but only with a lot of emphasis on
the “so” and an emphatic drop at the end of the sentence, but this
is not always how my students use it. Somehow, I can’t manage (A) at all –
any attempt and I can tell it’s coming out as sarcasm (“Oh, now my
leg’s broken. Thanks SO much.”). I’ve checked the American Dialect Society listserv
archive, but I either used the wrong search terms, or there hasn’t been
much discussion of it. My attention was particularly drawn to it by a recent
political robocall (I live in Michigan) in which the candidate (who is older
than I am) not only used (A), but managed to sound natural while doing it. Thanks! Bill Spruiell Dept. of English Central Michigan University
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C85D36.CD3EAF19--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:29:21 -0500
From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
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Bill:
I Googled "thanks so much" in parentheses and got 17 million hits. Then
I added 1950 (randomly chosen date) and looked at some newspaper
archives where the phrase appeared. Here is one example from an Iowa
newspaper in 1950
Bill: I Googled “thanks so much” in parentheses
and got 17 million hits. Then I added 1950 (randomly chosen date) and looked at
some newspaper archives where the phrase appeared. Here is
one example from an Iowa newspaper in 1950. Clearly, it’s not a new
expression. Dick Veit ________________________________ Richard Veit From: Dear
All: I’m
trying to figure out whether my reactions to a particular construction are
based on my age (incipient geezerhood), or my native dialect (Inland
Southern). It involves use of comparative “so” without an
accompanying “that” clause, roughly equivalent to
“very”:
A:
“Thanks so much”
B: “It
was so hot.” I
hear (A) very frequently, but I don’t remember hearing it when I was
younger. I also hear expressions like (B) from my students, although not nearly
as frequently as (A), which has become a set expression. I can almost make (B)
work in my own speech, but only with a lot of emphasis on the “so”
and an emphatic drop at the end of the sentence, but this is not always how my
students use it. Somehow, I can’t manage (A) at all – any attempt
and I can tell it’s coming out as sarcasm (“Oh, now my leg’s
broken. Thanks SO much.”). I’ve
checked the American Dialect Society listserv archive, but I either used the
wrong search terms, or there hasn’t been much discussion of it. My
attention was particularly drawn to it by a recent political robocall (I live
in Thanks!
Bill
Spruiell Dept.
of English
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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:58:37 -0500
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
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Dick,
This is by no means the first time that what I thought was an odd usage
turned out to be the norm, or vice versa ("What do you mean 'might
should' sounds funny?"). I wonder whether I can blame this one on
dialect, or whether (instead) I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's
trap of trying to foist my idiolect on the universe.
Thanks, er, muchly,
Bill Spruiell
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:29 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
Bill:
I Googled "thanks so much" in parentheses and got 17 million hits. Then
I added 1950 (randomly chosen date) and looked at some newspaper
archives where the phrase appeared. Here is one example from an Iowa
newspaper in 1950
Dick, This is by no means the first
time that what I thought was an odd usage turned out to be the norm, or vice
versa (“What do you mean ‘might should’ sounds funny?”). I wonder whether I
can blame this one on dialect, or whether (instead) I’ve fallen into the old grammar
pedant’s trap of trying to foist my idiolect on the universe. Thanks, er, muchly, Bill Spruiell From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit,
Richard Bill: I Googled “thanks so much” in parentheses and got 17 million hits.
Then I added 1950 (randomly chosen date) and looked at some newspaper archives
where the phrase appeared. Here is
one example from an Iowa newspaper in 1950. Clearly, it’s not a new
expression. Dick Veit ________________________________ Richard
Veit From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell,
William C Dear All: I’m trying to figure out whether my reactions to a particular
construction are based on my age (incipient geezerhood), or my native dialect
(Inland Southern). It involves use of comparative “so” without an
accompanying “that” clause, roughly equivalent to “very”:
A: “Thanks so
much”
B: “It was so
hot.” I hear (A) very frequently, but I don’t remember hearing it
when I was younger. I also hear expressions like (B) from my students, although
not nearly as frequently as (A), which has become a set expression. I can
almost make (B) work in my own speech, but only with a lot of emphasis on the
“so” and an emphatic drop at the end of the sentence, but this is not always
how my students use it. Somehow, I can’t manage (A) at all – any attempt and I
can tell it’s coming out as sarcasm (“Oh, now my leg’s broken. Thanks SO
much.”). I’ve checked the American Dialect Society listserv archive,
but I either used the wrong search terms, or there hasn’t been much discussion
of it. My attention was particularly drawn to it by a recent political robocall
(I live in Michigan) in which the candidate (who is older than I am) not only
used (A), but managed to sound natural while doing it. Thanks! Bill Spruiell Dept. of English Central Michigan University To
join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV
list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 20 Jan 2008 to 22 Jan 2008 (#2008-14)
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:29:55 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
In-Reply-To: A<[log in to unmask]>
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Craig, Helene, Herb, et al.:
I haven't (fortunately, as it turns out!) approached this as a
prescriptive issue with students. I was partly interested simply because
of the uses I had noted, and partly because I was wondering if it were
one of those patterns that is never mentioned in style guides but which
editors judge negatively. Alongside overt prescriptive rules there are
"crypto-prescriptive" ones, and those are even more of a problem for
students (e.g. double modals aren't allowed in standard written English,
but most grammar books and style guides never mention them).
I bounced "thanks so much" off a colleague from Oklahoma, and she said
she had not heard it in her home state either. The old line about "data"
not being the plural of "anecdote" applies fully here, but I am left
wondering if regional dialect is involved (or maybe just a cultural
pattern in which saying "thank you" is considered quite demonstrative
enough in its own right, and likely to provide nervous shuffling and
quick changes of the subject).
Thanks! (Unironically!) -- Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 12:36 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
Helene, Bill, and others,
The OED has record of "so" without complement way back to Old English
and carrying through.
Sometimes this occurs with negative or interrogative clauses. Here's
one from Middle English, fromChaucer: "And if a man wol aske him prively
Why they been clothed so unthriftily." From 1850: "What am I to say in
answer to conduct so preposterous?"
You might be able to make a case that it means something like "to
such an extent". This, from wordsworth: "A voice so thrilling ne'er was
heard."
But the OED also lists it "in affirmative clauses, tending to become
a mere intensive without comparative force, and sometimes emphasized in
speaking and writing." "Among the floures, so swete of ayre" (1503).
Dickens (1837): My dear brother is so good."
It also intensifies adjectives, often followed by a... "so great a
blunder". "so boldfaced a lie."
It can also intensify verbs: "What payne doth thee so appall?"
(spencer, 1579).
The word is very, very rich and interesting, so give yourself some
time if you want to look it up. (I didn't think it would be SO rich.")
Craig
helene hoover wrote:
> Well, Bill, I'm with you. I always tell my students that they need to
> finish the comparison with the comparative "so." I usually use the
> example, "She was SO excited, she wet her pants," and they tend to
> remember that one. Of course, they don't always remember to
> incorporate the ending in their writing, but memories are fairly
> easily jogged if I mention it again! Helene Hoover
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:58:37 -0500
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Dick,
>
>
>
> This is by no means the first time that what I thought was an odd
> usage turned out to be the norm, or vice versa ("What do you mean
> 'might should' sounds funny?"). I wonder whether I can blame this
> one on dialect, or whether (instead) I've fallen into the old
> grammar pedant's trap of trying to foist my idiolect on the
universe.
>
>
>
> Thanks, er, muchly,
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Veit, Richard
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:29 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
>
>
>
> Bill:
>
>
>
> I Googled "thanks so much" in parentheses and got 17 million hits.
> Then I added 1950 (randomly chosen date) and looked at some
> newspaper archives where the phrase appeared. Here is one example
> from an Iowa newspaper in 1950
>
Helene, This verges on nitpicking, but why the comma after “excited”? “She
wet her pants” feels like a resultative clause. Herb From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of helene
hoover Well, Bill, I'm with you. I always tell my
students that they need to finish the comparison with the comparative
"so." I usually use the example, "She was SO excited, she
wet her pants," and they tend to remember that one. Of course, they
don't always remember to incorporate the ending in their writing, but memories
are fairly easily jogged if I mention it again! Helene Hoover Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:58:37 -0500 Dick, This is by no means the first time that what I thought was an
odd usage turned out to be the norm, or vice versa (“What do you mean ‘might
should’ sounds funny?”). I wonder whether I can blame this one on
dialect, or whether (instead) I’ve fallen into the old grammar pedant’s trap of
trying to foist my idiolect on the universe. Thanks, er, muchly, Bill Spruiell From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit,
Richard Bill: I Googled “thanks so much” in parentheses and got 17 million hits.
Then I added 1950 (randomly chosen date) and looked at some newspaper archives
where the phrase appeared. Here is one example from an Iowa newspaper in 1950. Clearly, it’s
not a new expression. Dick Veit ________________________________ Richard Veit From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell,
William C Dear
All: I’m
trying to figure out whether my reactions to a particular construction are
based on my age (incipient geezerhood), or my native dialect (Inland
Southern). It involves use of comparative “so” without an accompanying
“that” clause, roughly equivalent to “very”:
A: “Thanks so
much”
B: “It was so
hot.” I
hear (A) very frequently, but I don’t remember hearing it when I was younger. I
also hear expressions like (B) from my students, although not nearly as
frequently as (A), which has become a set expression. I can almost make (B)
work in my own speech, but only with a lot of emphasis on the “so” and an
emphatic drop at the end of the sentence, but this is not always how my
students use it. Somehow, I can’t manage (A) at all – any attempt and I can
tell it’s coming out as sarcasm (“Oh, now my leg’s broken. Thanks SO much.”). I’ve
checked the American Dialect Society listserv archive, but I either used the
wrong search terms, or there hasn’t been much discussion of it. My attention
was particularly drawn to it by a recent political robocall (I live in
Michigan) in which the candidate (who is older than I am) not only used (A),
but managed to sound natural while doing it. Thanks!
Bill
Spruiell Dept.
of English Central
Michigan University To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list" Visit
ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
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the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ Helping
your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. Learn more. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C85E1A.913941DC--
========================================================================Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:13:11 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Nancy Tuten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
Comments: cc: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I run across this construction frequently with students and even more often with adults in seminars. They feel the need to put the comma where they have omitted the word "that." Most of them have been (erroneously) taught to remove the word "that" from their writing, so it is hard to convince them to re-insert it and get rid of the extraneous comma.
Nancy
---- "STAHLKE wrote:
> Helene,
>
>
>
> This verges on nitpicking, but why the comma after "excited"? "She wet
> her pants" feels like a resultative clause.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of helene hoover
> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:57 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
>
>
>
> Well, Bill, I'm with you. I always tell my students that they need to
> finish the comparison with the comparative "so." I usually use the
> example, "She was SO excited, she wet her pants," and they tend to
> remember that one. Of course, they don't always remember to incorporate
> the ending in their writing, but memories are fairly easily jogged if I
> mention it again! Helene Hoover
>
> ________________________________
>
> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:58:37 -0500
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Dick,
>
>
>
> This is by no means the first time that what I thought was an odd usage
> turned out to be the norm, or vice versa ("What do you mean 'might
> should' sounds funny?"). I wonder whether I can blame this one on
> dialect, or whether (instead) I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's
> trap of trying to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>
>
>
> Thanks, er, muchly,
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:29 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
>
>
>
> Bill:
>
>
>
> I Googled "thanks so much" in parentheses and got 17 million hits. Then
> I added 1950 (randomly chosen date) and looked at some newspaper
> archives where the phrase appeared. Here is one example from an Iowa
> newspaper in 1950
> Helene, This verges on nitpicking, but why the comma after “excited”? “She wet her pants” feels like a resultative clause. Herb From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of helene hoover Well, Bill, I'm with you. I always tell my students that they need to finish the comparison with the comparative "so." I usually use the example, "She was SO excited, she wet her pants," and they tend to remember that one. Of course, they don't always remember to incorporate the ending in their writing, but memories are fairly easily jogged if I mention it again! Helene Hoover Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:58:37 -0500 Dick, This is by no means the first time that what I thought was an odd usage turned out to be the norm, or vice versa (“What do you mean ‘might should’ sounds funny?”). I wonder whether I can blame this one on dialect, or whether (instead) I’ve fallen into the old grammar pedant’s trap of trying to foist my idiolect on the universe. Thanks, er, muchly, Bill Spruiell From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard Bill: I Googled “thanks so much” in parentheses and got 17 million hits. Then I added 1950 (randomly chosen date) and looked at some newspaper archives where the phrase appeared. Here is one example from an Iowa newspaper in 1950. Clearly, it’s not a new expression. Dick Veit ________________________________ Richard Veit From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C Dear All: I’m trying to figure out whether my reactions to a particular construction are based on my age (incipient geezerhood), or my native dialect (Inland Southern). It involves use of comparative “so” without an accompanying “that” clause, roughly equivalent to “very”: A: “Thanks so much” B: “It was so hot.” I hear (A) very frequently, but I don’t remember hearing it when I was younger. I also hear expressions like (B) from my students, although not nearly as frequently as (A), which has become a set expression. I can almost make (B) work in my own speech, but only with a lot of emphasis on the “so” and an emphatic drop at the end of the sentence, but this is not always how my students use it. Somehow, I can’t manage (A) at all – any attempt and I can tell it’s coming out as sarcasm (“Oh, now my leg’s broken. Thanks SO much.”). I’ve checked the American Dialect Society listserv archive, but I either used the wrong search terms, or there hasn’t been much discussion of it. My attention was particularly drawn to it by a recent political robocall (I live in Michigan) in which the candidate (who is older than I am) not only used (A), but managed to sound natural while doing it. Thanks! Bill Spruiell Dept. of English Central Michigan University To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. Learn more. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
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--_fce4d9d5-ecdd-4495-b668-ea4327e60d36_--
========================================================================Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:10:24 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: genitive appositive
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List,
I found this sentence in Stevenson's The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde:
This hall, in which he was now left alone, was a pet fancy of his friend the doctor’s;
I see "the doctor's" as an appositive to friend, which is genitive showing the source of the fancy. The appositive has been put in the same case, hence the appostrophe. Does my analysis look right? Was Stevenson over Latinizing his English? Is this the normal pattern? Is it considered correct? Would anyone on the list consider it an error in modern American usage?
Thanks,
Scott Woods
---------------------------------
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:28:49 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: genitive appositive
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Interesting problem. I don't think it's a case of case agreement, something English doesn't show much of anyway. Latinizing is a good possibility. That said, I don't find the construction uncomfortable. At least it doesn't jump out and say RLS stumbled. I'll have to check a couple of grammars on this.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Scott Woods
Sent: Thu 1/24/2008 1:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: genitive appositive
List,
I found this sentence in Stevenson's The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde:
This hall, in which he was now left alone, was a pet fancy of his friend the doctor's;
I see "the doctor's" as an appositive to friend, which is genitive showing the source of the fancy. The appositive has been put in the same case, hence the appostrophe. Does my analysis look right? Was Stevenson over Latinizing his English? Is this the normal pattern? Is it considered correct? Would anyone on the list consider it an error in modern American usage?
Thanks,
Scott Woods
---------------------------------
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 11:37:44 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: genitive appositive
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--____LPHMXLZMXOMRLFKSEJCW____--
========================================================================Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:41:34 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: genitive appositive
In-Reply-To: A<[log in to unmask]>
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This hall, in which he was now left alone, was a pet fancy of his friend
the doctor's;
It is not the form I would use, but it seems grammatical. We would say
"my friend the doctor's fancy" (not *my friend's the doctor fancy). So
if you can say "a pet fancy of my friend's," then I suppose you could
say "a pet fancy of my friend the doctor's," as RLS did.
Dick Veit
________________________________
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 1:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: genitive appositive
List,
I found this sentence in Stevenson's The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and
Mr. Hyde:
This hall, in which he was now left alone, was a pet fancy of his friend
the doctor's;
I see "the doctor's" as an appositive to friend, which is genitive
showing the source of the fancy. The appositive has been put in the
same case, hence the appostrophe. Does my analysis look right? Was
Stevenson over Latinizing his English? Is this the normal pattern? Is
it considered correct? Would anyone on the list consider it an error in
modern American usage?
Thanks,
Scott Woods
________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
it now.
This hall, in which he was now left alone, was a pet
fancy of his friend the doctor’s; It is not the form I would use, but it seems
grammatical. We would say “my friend the doctor’s fancy” (not
*my friend’s the doctor fancy). So if you can say “a pet fancy of
my friend’s,” then I suppose you could say “a pet fancy of my
friend the doctor’s,” as RLS did. Dick Veit ________________________________ Richard Veit From: List, I found this sentence in Stevenson's The
Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde: This hall, in which he was now left alone, was a pet
fancy of his friend the doctor’s; I see "the doctor's" as an appositive to
friend, which is genitive showing the source of the fancy. The appositive
has been put in the same case, hence the appostrophe. Does my
analysis look right? Was Stevenson over Latinizing his
English? Is this the normal pattern? Is it considered
correct? Would anyone on the list consider it an error in modern American
usage? Thanks, Scott Woods Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
it now. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list" Visit
ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C85EB8.BF1A2CDD--
========================================================================Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 11:51:46 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
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--____WHPEPQYSAQXEHDGESJXG____--
--____LPHMXLZMXOMRLFKSEJCW____--
========================================================================Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:27:10 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: genitive appositive
Mime-Version: 1.0
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--____LPHMXLZMXOMRLFKSEJCW____
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:45:34 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 23 Jan 2008 to 24 Jan 2008 (#2008-16)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Although I use Joo's Five clocks quite literally, I do not speak to my
cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in the same idiolect
that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or in talking with
fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or in talking to colleagues
at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a lecture at such an
event.
It should be noted that Formal English is within the scope of most
non-English-speaking participants in international conferences; casual
English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or writing an article
for
highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the banner of pedantry. My
formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than it would be for
speaking to a general audience--much as if I were speaking with friends
in general conversation--a good group makes you feel that way.
Scott Catledge
I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's trap of trying
to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>
>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>> Bill Spruiell
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 06:30:47 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
In-Reply-To: <008f01c85fc5$86302f80$6401a8c0@leordinateur>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1605401584-1201357847=:30552"
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--0-1605401584-1201357847=:30552
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Dear Fellow ATEG Members,
I am interested in taking a course in grammar at a local college or university this summer.
Does anyone happen to know of a college or university in the Philadelphia area that might be offering a grammar class or workshop for teachers? West Chester University is offering Intro. to Linguistics: "basic concepts of language description, classification, change, reconstruction, dialectology, and sociolinguistics" and Structure of Modern English: "a detailed analysis of the modern descriptive approach to the study of English grammar and how it compares with the traditional approach." Would anyone be able to recommend either of those courses or something else? I would like to increase my knowledge in the type of grammar that could possibly be applied to the composition classroom, a "writer's grammar." Maybe taking both of the courses would be beneficial, though I'm not sure that I have the time. Thank you for your time and possible feedback.
Carol Morrison
Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Although I use Joo's Five clocks quite literally, I do not speak to my
cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in the same idiolect
that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or in talking with
fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or in talking to colleagues
at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a lecture at such an
event.
It should be noted that Formal English is within the scope of most
non-English-speaking participants in international conferences; casual
English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or writing an article
for
highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the banner of pedantry. My
formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than it would be for
speaking to a general audience--much as if I were speaking with friends
in general conversation--a good group makes you feel that way.
Scott Catledge
I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's trap of trying
to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>
>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>> Bill Spruiell
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-1605401584-1201357847=:30552
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-1605401584-1201357847=:30552--
========================================================================Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:55:25 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 24 Jan 2008 to 25 Jan 2008 (#2008-17)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Bruce--
Could you repeat your message and be a little clearer;{)>
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 12:07 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 24 Jan 2008 to 25 Jan 2008 (#2008-17)
There are 2 messages totalling 227 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. genitive appositive
2. ATEG Digest - 23 Jan 2008 to 24 Jan 2008 (#2008-16)
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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:27:10 -0700
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: genitive appositive
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:45:34 -0500
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 23 Jan 2008 to 24 Jan 2008 (#2008-16)
Although I use Joo's Five clocks quite literally, I do not speak to my
cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in the same idiolect
that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or in talking with
fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or in talking to colleagues
at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a lecture at such an
event.
It should be noted that Formal English is within the scope of most
non-English-speaking participants in international conferences; casual
English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or writing an article
for
highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the banner of pedantry. My
formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than it would be for
speaking to a general audience--much as if I were speaking with friends
in general conversation--a good group makes you feel that way.
Scott Catledge
I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's trap of trying
to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>
>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>> Bill Spruiell
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 24 Jan 2008 to 25 Jan 2008 (#2008-17)
**********************************************************
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 10:56:20 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Bruce D. Despain" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Clearer explanation of the possessive vs. genitive constructions
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Scott,
I'm sorry that I have already deleted the messages sent concerning the above
subject. I can still attempt a fuller explanation. The idea I had was as
follows.
The genitive in Latin is an inflection of nouns often used to represent the
idea of possession by the thing referred to by the noun that is inflected.
Of course, we don't "possess" friends, but this relation is also expressed
by the genitive. The possessive in English has traditionally be taken as an
inflection on the noun and parallel to the genitive in Latin. However, in
English we have a paraphrastic expression using "of" to express the same
relationship. This complicates the translation of English into Latin and
vice versa, since sometimes the one, and sometimes the other expression
seems more appropriate.
1) my friend -- possessive pronoun -- amicus meus
2) the friend of mine -- paraphrastic possessive -- amicus meus
3) a friend of mine -- double possessive -- amicus meus / unus amici mei
Similarly, if the possessive is a noun, we have:
4) the doctor's friend -- possessive noun -- amicus doctoris / doctoris
amicus
5) the friend of the doctor -- paraphrastic possessive -- doctoris amicus /
amicus doctoris
6) a friend of the doctor's -- double possessive -- unus doctoris amici /
unus doctoris amicus
Traditionally the English is taken as defective when compared to the Latin,
since it cannot easily distinguish the meanings that Latin must.
I think the sentence in your original question has a phrase something like
"the hall of his friend the doctor's." This is not a double possessive in
the above sense; the phrase "of his friend" is completed by the appositive
"the doctor's." The question revolved around the possessive of doctor being
in apposition to the paraphrastic possessive (genitive) "of his friend."
The assumption seemed to be that an equally felicitous expression would
comprise both nouns being complement to the preposition: "of his friend the
doctor." In Latin this would be "amici ejus doctoris" where the genitive
belongs to the whole phrase. Latinizing the English phrase would presumably
place the possessive ending on the nouns of the phrase, not just the word
"doctor."
There seem to be good reasons for putting the possessive ending on the
phrase based on the use of the possessive ending on certain other short
phrases. A particle that occurs as part of a word, but syntactically
belongs to the phrase is called an enclitic. Hence, in the phrase, "the
queen of England's crown" the possessive ending on "England" is an enclitic;
it logically makes the whole noun phrase of which it is a part possessive.
We occassionally find colloquial expressions, of which I cited a few like
"the store on the corner's front window was broken" that use this particular
enclitic. It appears that it will not attach to words that are not nouns.
The final suggestion was that this is the enclitic found on the phrase in
question. It has simply attached itself to the final noun of the noun
phrase, which in this case is in apposition to the other noun. (Whether the
noun is appositional "the doctor" or in a modifying prepositional phrase "of
England" it still stands in an adjectival relationship to the main noun.)
Latin places it in the same case as the noun modified, whereas English seems
to place the whole phrase in the possessive. Even though the main noun is
follows "of" and is a paraphrastic possessive, the appositive that follows
also becomes possessive . This then would be attributing a sort-of double
possessive to the phrase "of his friend the doctor's."
Let me add a footnote. The use of the term "enclitic" for a possessive
might be misunderstood to be referring to the idea that "doctor's" comes
from "doctor his" when the accent is reduced. I do not believe that this
idea can be at all supported, though some older grammarians have expressed
it in print.
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 7:55 AM
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 24 Jan 2008 to 25 Jan 2008 (#2008-17)
> Bruce--
> Could you repeat your message and be a little clearer;{)>
> Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest
> system
> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 12:07 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: ATEG Digest - 24 Jan 2008 to 25 Jan 2008 (#2008-17)
>
> There are 2 messages totalling 227 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. genitive appositive
> 2. ATEG Digest - 23 Jan 2008 to 24 Jan 2008 (#2008-16)
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:27:10 -0700
> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: genitive appositive
>
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> --____WHPEPQYSAQXEHDGESJXG____--
> --____LPHMXLZMXOMRLFKSEJCW____--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:45:34 -0500
> From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 23 Jan 2008 to 24 Jan 2008 (#2008-16)
>
> Although I use Joo's Five clocks quite literally, I do not speak to my
> cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in the same idiolect
> that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or in talking with
> fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or in talking to colleagues
> at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a lecture at such an
> event.
> It should be noted that Formal English is within the scope of most
> non-English-speaking participants in international conferences; casual
> English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or writing an
> article
> for
> highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the banner of pedantry. My
> formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
> In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than it would be for
> speaking to a general audience--much as if I were speaking with friends
> in general conversation--a good group makes you feel that way.
> Scott Catledge
>
> I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's trap of
> trying
> to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>>
>>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>>> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of ATEG Digest - 24 Jan 2008 to 25 Jan 2008 (#2008-17)
> **********************************************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 14:07:59 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clearer explanation of the possessive vs. genitive
constructions
In-Reply-To: <000401c86047$8ff51fd0$4ed33542@Study>
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Bruce,
Thank you for your detailed explanation. I appreciate your attention to my questions, and am grateful for your help.
Scott Woods
"Bruce D. Despain" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Scott,
I'm sorry that I have already deleted the messages sent concerning the above
subject. I can still attempt a fuller explanation. The idea I had was as
follows.
The genitive in Latin is an inflection of nouns often used to represent the
idea of possession by the thing referred to by the noun that is inflected.
Of course, we don't "possess" friends, but this relation is also expressed
by the genitive. The possessive in English has traditionally be taken as an
inflection on the noun and parallel to the genitive in Latin. However, in
English we have a paraphrastic expression using "of" to express the same
relationship. This complicates the translation of English into Latin and
vice versa, since sometimes the one, and sometimes the other expression
seems more appropriate.
1) my friend -- possessive pronoun -- amicus meus
2) the friend of mine -- paraphrastic possessive -- amicus meus
3) a friend of mine -- double possessive -- amicus meus / unus amici mei
Similarly, if the possessive is a noun, we have:
4) the doctor's friend -- possessive noun -- amicus doctoris / doctoris
amicus
5) the friend of the doctor -- paraphrastic possessive -- doctoris amicus /
amicus doctoris
6) a friend of the doctor's -- double possessive -- unus doctoris amici /
unus doctoris amicus
Traditionally the English is taken as defective when compared to the Latin,
since it cannot easily distinguish the meanings that Latin must.
I think the sentence in your original question has a phrase something like
"the hall of his friend the doctor's." This is not a double possessive in
the above sense; the phrase "of his friend" is completed by the appositive
"the doctor's." The question revolved around the possessive of doctor being
in apposition to the paraphrastic possessive (genitive) "of his friend."
The assumption seemed to be that an equally felicitous expression would
comprise both nouns being complement to the preposition: "of his friend the
doctor." In Latin this would be "amici ejus doctoris" where the genitive
belongs to the whole phrase. Latinizing the English phrase would presumably
place the possessive ending on the nouns of the phrase, not just the word
"doctor."
There seem to be good reasons for putting the possessive ending on the
phrase based on the use of the possessive ending on certain other short
phrases. A particle that occurs as part of a word, but syntactically
belongs to the phrase is called an enclitic. Hence, in the phrase, "the
queen of England's crown" the possessive ending on "England" is an enclitic;
it logically makes the whole noun phrase of which it is a part possessive.
We occassionally find colloquial expressions, of which I cited a few like
"the store on the corner's front window was broken" that use this particular
enclitic. It appears that it will not attach to words that are not nouns.
The final suggestion was that this is the enclitic found on the phrase in
question. It has simply attached itself to the final noun of the noun
phrase, which in this case is in apposition to the other noun. (Whether the
noun is appositional "the doctor" or in a modifying prepositional phrase "of
England" it still stands in an adjectival relationship to the main noun.)
Latin places it in the same case as the noun modified, whereas English seems
to place the whole phrase in the possessive. Even though the main noun is
follows "of" and is a paraphrastic possessive, the appositive that follows
also becomes possessive . This then would be attributing a sort-of double
possessive to the phrase "of his friend the doctor's."
Let me add a footnote. The use of the term "enclitic" for a possessive
might be misunderstood to be referring to the idea that "doctor's" comes
from "doctor his" when the accent is reduced. I do not believe that this
idea can be at all supported, though some older grammarians have expressed
it in print.
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott"
To:
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 7:55 AM
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 24 Jan 2008 to 25 Jan 2008 (#2008-17)
> Bruce--
> Could you repeat your message and be a little clearer;{)>
> Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest
> system
> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 12:07 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: ATEG Digest - 24 Jan 2008 to 25 Jan 2008 (#2008-17)
>
> There are 2 messages totalling 227 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. genitive appositive
> 2. ATEG Digest - 23 Jan 2008 to 24 Jan 2008 (#2008-16)
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:27:10 -0700
> From: Bruce Despain
> Subject: Re: genitive appositive
>
> --____LPHMXLZMXOMRLFKSEJCW____
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> --____LPHMXLZMXOMRLFKSEJCW____--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:45:34 -0500
> From: Scott
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 23 Jan 2008 to 24 Jan 2008 (#2008-16)
>
> Although I use Joo's Five clocks quite literally, I do not speak to my
> cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in the same idiolect
> that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or in talking with
> fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or in talking to colleagues
> at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a lecture at such an
> event.
> It should be noted that Formal English is within the scope of most
> non-English-speaking participants in international conferences; casual
> English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or writing an
> article
> for
> highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the banner of pedantry. My
> formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
> In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than it would be for
> speaking to a general audience--much as if I were speaking with friends
> in general conversation--a good group makes you feel that way.
> Scott Catledge
>
> I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's trap of
> trying
> to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>>
>>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>>> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of ATEG Digest - 24 Jan 2008 to 25 Jan 2008 (#2008-17)
=== message truncated ==
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:38:46 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Carol,
I hope you succeed in finding a course that treats grammar in ways that
are relevant to the composition classroom. You put your finger on one
of the curricular gaps in linguistics, English, and composition
programs, the absence of just such courses. I've taught both of the
courses you mention WCU is offering, and I'm not sure either is what
you're looking for, given the descriptions you provide. An Intro
Linguistics course will not address pedagogy, composition, or much of
English grammar. It has too many other topics it has to cover to
prepare students for more advanced courses in linguistics. A "Structure
of Modern English" course will present an anatomy of English syntactic
structures, possibly some material on English word formation, and maybe
even some English phonology, although that tends to be neglected. It
will likely be a very technical grammar course drawing heavily on
linguistic concepts. It will almost certainly not deal with pedagogy or
composition.
The sort of course you seek is one a number of us have taught, and
Martha Koln has written a superb text for it, her Rhetorical Grammar,
which a lot of us have studied and have used as a text in our own
classes. State College is a bit of a commute from Philadelphia, but I
wonder if Martha or one of her colleagues will be offering such a course
this summer.
All the best!
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: 2008-01-26 09:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
Dear Fellow ATEG Members,
I am interested in taking a course in grammar at a local college or
university this summer.
Does anyone happen to know of a college or university in the
Philadelphia area that might be offering a grammar class or workshop for
teachers? West Chester University is offering Intro. to Linguistics:
"basic concepts of language description, classification, change,
reconstruction, dialectology, and sociolinguistics" and Structure of
Modern English: "a detailed analysis of the modern descriptive approach
to the study of English grammar and how it compares with the traditional
approach." Would anyone be able to recommend either of those courses or
something else? I would like to increase my knowledge in the type of
grammar that could possibly be applied to the composition classroom, a
"writer's grammar." Maybe taking both of the courses would be
beneficial, though I'm not sure that I have the time. Thank you for your
time and possible feedback.
Carol Morrison
Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Although I use Joo's Five clocks quite literally, I do not speak
to my
cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in the same
idiolect
that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or in
talking with
fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or in talking to
colleagues
at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a lecture at
such an
event.
It should be noted that Formal English is within the scope of
most
non-English-speaking participants in international conferences;
casual
English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or writing
an article
for
highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the banner of
pedantry. My
formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than it
would be for
speaking to a general audience--much as if I were speaking with
friends
in general conversation--a good group makes you feel that way.
Scott Catledge
I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's
trap of trying
to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>
>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>> Bill Spruiell
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Carol, I hope you succeed in finding a course that treats grammar in
ways that are relevant to the composition classroom. You put your finger
on one of the curricular gaps in linguistics, English, and composition programs,
the absence of just such courses. I’ve taught both of the courses
you mention WCU is offering, and I’m not sure either is what you’re
looking for, given the descriptions you provide. An Intro Linguistics
course will not address pedagogy, composition, or much of English
grammar. It has too many other topics it has to cover to prepare students
for more advanced courses in linguistics. A “Structure of Modern
English” course will present an anatomy of English syntactic structures,
possibly some material on English word formation, and maybe even some English
phonology, although that tends to be neglected. It will likely be a very
technical grammar course drawing heavily on linguistic concepts. It will
almost certainly not deal with pedagogy or composition. The sort of course you seek is one a number of us have taught,
and Martha Koln has written a superb text for it, her Rhetorical Grammar,
which a lot of us have studied and have used as a text in our own classes.
State College is a bit of a commute from Philadelphia, but I wonder if Martha
or one of her colleagues will be offering such a course this summer. All the best! Herb From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol
Morrison Dear Fellow ATEG Members, I am interested in taking a course in grammar at a
local college or university this summer. Does anyone happen to know of a college or university in the
Philadelphia area that might be offering a grammar class or workshop for
teachers? West Chester University is offering Intro. to
Linguistics: "basic concepts of language description,
classification, change, reconstruction, dialectology, and
sociolinguistics" and Structure of Modern English:
"a detailed analysis of the modern descriptive approach to the study of
English grammar and how it compares with the traditional approach."
Would anyone be able to recommend either of those courses
or something else? I would like to increase my knowledge in the
type of grammar that could possibly be applied to the composition
classroom, a "writer's grammar." Maybe taking both of the courses
would be beneficial, though I'm not sure that I have the time. Thank you for
your time and possible feedback. Carol Morrison Although I use Joo's Five clocks quite literally, I do not
speak to my Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo
your homepage. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C86085.6E1E48D9--
========================================================================Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 21:47:17 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clearer explanation of the possessive vs. genitive
constructions
In-Reply-To: <000401c86047$8ff51fd0$4ed33542@Study>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Scott and Bruce,
I'd like to add something that is implicit in Bruce's explanation but I
find often needs to be clarified. The genitive/possessive distinction
is really a form/function distinction. Genitive names the grammatical
structure, whether the case ending in Latin or the periphrastic "of"
genitive or the older English -'s genitive. Bruce is, of course, right
that the -'s is an enclitic. Linguists generally omit the prefix and
just call it a clitic, but this one is enclitic because it attaches to a
preceding structure rather than to a following structure as a proclitic
would.
The difference between the periphrastic and -'s genitives in English
largely a result of their history. Old English had a case-marked
genitive, usually marked by an -s suffix although there were other
forms. There was no of-genitive. However, the case-marked genitive
could either precede or follow the noun it modified. In early Middle
English, under the influence of French and also because of the general
weakening and disappearance of suffixes, the periphrastic genitive with
"of" began to develop. I have a graph of these developments I derived
from a 1960s article by Charles Fries that I don't have a reference to
right now. I've used in History of English and in English Grammar
classes to help explain how the genitive works today and why it behaves
as it does. I can't attach the graph on the list-serv, but I'll provide
the Excel spreadsheet the graph is based on, and you're welcome to use
the Excel graphing functions to construct your own version. Here are
the numerical data. You'll need to line the columns up, of course.
What the chart shows is that the inflectional genitive after the noun it
modifies disappears almost completely by 1500AD. The periphrastic
genitive is fairly rare until the 15th c., when it begins to appear much
more frequently.
Year 900 1000 1100 1200 1250 1300 1400 1500
Acc-obj. before verb 52.50 52.70 40.00 27.60 14.30
7.00 1.87
Acc-obj. after verb 47.50 46.30 60.00 72.35 85.70
92.00 98.13
Genitive before its noun 52.40 96.10 77.40 87.40 99.10
Genitive after its noun 47.60 30.90 22.60 12.60 0.90
Periphrastic genitive 0.50 1.00 1.20 6.30 31.40 84.50
What the chart shows is that the inflectional genitive after the noun it
modifies disappears almost completely by 1500AD. The periphrastic
genitive is fairly rare until the 15th c., when it begins to appear much
more frequently.
I use this chart in conjunction with the following data set that I work
through in class, usually dividing the class into groups so they can do
some of their own analysis.
English genitives
Look at the following genitive constructions
1. Jane's house
?the house of Jane
?a house of Jane
?the house of Jane's
a house of Jane's
2. Sam's friend
?the friend of Sam
a friend of Sam
?the friend of Sam's
a friend of Sam's
3. The car's bumper
the bumper of the car
?a bumper of the car
?the bumper of the car's
?a bumper of the car's
4. My shirt
*the shirt of my
*a shirt of my
?the shirt of mine
a shirt of mine
5. My arm
*the arm of my
*an arm of my
?the arm of mine
?an arm of mine
6. The cup's contents
the contents of the cup
contents of the cup
?some contents of the cup (unstressed "some")
*the contents of the cup's
*some contents of the cup's
contents of the cup's
How many genitive constructions does English have?
How do they differ in form?
Do they differ in grammaticality? If so, how?
Do they differ in meaning? If so, how?
This data set gives us a chance to explore in some depth the function
and semantics of the genitive, especially the grammar of inalienable
possession, as in the difference between the items in 4 and 5. One of
the understandings that students arrive at fairly quickly is that
possession is only one of the possible meanings of genitive
construction.
All the best!
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bruce D. Despain
Sent: 2008-01-26 12:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Clearer explanation of the possessive vs. genitive
constructions
Scott,
I'm sorry that I have already deleted the messages sent concerning the
above
subject. I can still attempt a fuller explanation. The idea I had was
as
follows.
The genitive in Latin is an inflection of nouns often used to represent
the
idea of possession by the thing referred to by the noun that is
inflected.
Of course, we don't "possess" friends, but this relation is also
expressed
by the genitive. The possessive in English has traditionally be taken
as an
inflection on the noun and parallel to the genitive in Latin. However,
in
English we have a paraphrastic expression using "of" to express the same
relationship. This complicates the translation of English into Latin
and
vice versa, since sometimes the one, and sometimes the other expression
seems more appropriate.
1) my friend -- possessive pronoun -- amicus meus
2) the friend of mine -- paraphrastic possessive -- amicus meus
3) a friend of mine -- double possessive -- amicus meus / unus amici mei
Similarly, if the possessive is a noun, we have:
4) the doctor's friend -- possessive noun -- amicus doctoris / doctoris
amicus
5) the friend of the doctor -- paraphrastic possessive -- doctoris
amicus /
amicus doctoris
6) a friend of the doctor's -- double possessive -- unus doctoris amici
/
unus doctoris amicus
Traditionally the English is taken as defective when compared to the
Latin,
since it cannot easily distinguish the meanings that Latin must.
I think the sentence in your original question has a phrase something
like
"the hall of his friend the doctor's." This is not a double possessive
in
the above sense; the phrase "of his friend" is completed by the
appositive
"the doctor's." The question revolved around the possessive of doctor
being
in apposition to the paraphrastic possessive (genitive) "of his friend."
The assumption seemed to be that an equally felicitous expression would
comprise both nouns being complement to the preposition: "of his friend
the
doctor." In Latin this would be "amici ejus doctoris" where the
genitive
belongs to the whole phrase. Latinizing the English phrase would
presumably
place the possessive ending on the nouns of the phrase, not just the
word
"doctor."
There seem to be good reasons for putting the possessive ending on the
phrase based on the use of the possessive ending on certain other short
phrases. A particle that occurs as part of a word, but syntactically
belongs to the phrase is called an enclitic. Hence, in the phrase, "the
queen of England's crown" the possessive ending on "England" is an
enclitic;
it logically makes the whole noun phrase of which it is a part
possessive.
We occassionally find colloquial expressions, of which I cited a few
like
"the store on the corner's front window was broken" that use this
particular
enclitic. It appears that it will not attach to words that are not
nouns.
The final suggestion was that this is the enclitic found on the phrase
in
question. It has simply attached itself to the final noun of the noun
phrase, which in this case is in apposition to the other noun. (Whether
the
noun is appositional "the doctor" or in a modifying prepositional phrase
"of
England" it still stands in an adjectival relationship to the main
noun.)
Latin places it in the same case as the noun modified, whereas English
seems
to place the whole phrase in the possessive. Even though the main noun
is
follows "of" and is a paraphrastic possessive, the appositive that
follows
also becomes possessive . This then would be attributing a sort-of
double
possessive to the phrase "of his friend the doctor's."
Let me add a footnote. The use of the term "enclitic" for a possessive
might be misunderstood to be referring to the idea that "doctor's" comes
from "doctor his" when the accent is reduced. I do not believe that
this
idea can be at all supported, though some older grammarians have
expressed
it in print.
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 7:55 AM
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 24 Jan 2008 to 25 Jan 2008 (#2008-17)
> Bruce--
> Could you repeat your message and be a little clearer;{)>
> Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest
> system
> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 12:07 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: ATEG Digest - 24 Jan 2008 to 25 Jan 2008 (#2008-17)
>
> There are 2 messages totalling 227 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. genitive appositive
> 2. ATEG Digest - 23 Jan 2008 to 24 Jan 2008 (#2008-16)
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:27:10 -0700
> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: genitive appositive
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:45:34 -0500
> From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 23 Jan 2008 to 24 Jan 2008 (#2008-16)
>
> Although I use Joo's Five clocks quite literally, I do not speak to my
> cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in the same
idiolect
> that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or in talking with
> fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or in talking to colleagues
> at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a lecture at such
an
> event.
> It should be noted that Formal English is within the scope of most
> non-English-speaking participants in international conferences; casual
> English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or writing an
> article
> for
> highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the banner of pedantry.
My
> formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
> In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than it would be
for
> speaking to a general audience--much as if I were speaking with
friends
> in general conversation--a good group makes you feel that way.
> Scott Catledge
>
> I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's trap of
> trying
> to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>>
>>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>>> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of ATEG Digest - 24 Jan 2008 to 25 Jan 2008 (#2008-17)
> **********************************************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 07:40:32 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="============_-1010684862==_ma============"
--============_-1010684862==_ma===========Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Thank you, Herb, for your good words about Rhetorical Grammar. Your
endorsement means a great deal to me.
I'll be in touch with you, Carol. We may be able to organize a workshop.
Martha
>Carol,
>
>I hope you succeed in finding a course that treats grammar in ways
>that are relevant to the composition classroom. You put your finger
>on one of the curricular gaps in linguistics, English, and
>composition programs, the absence of just such courses. I've taught
>both of the courses you mention WCU is offering, and I'm not sure
>either is what you're looking for, given the descriptions you
>provide. An Intro Linguistics course will not address pedagogy,
>composition, or much of English grammar. It has too many other
>topics it has to cover to prepare students for more advanced courses
>in linguistics. A "Structure of Modern English" course will present
>an anatomy of English syntactic structures, possibly some material
>on English word formation, and maybe even some English phonology,
>although that tends to be neglected. It will likely be a very
>technical grammar course drawing heavily on linguistic concepts. It
>will almost certainly not deal with pedagogy or composition.
>
>The sort of course you seek is one a number of us have taught, and
>Martha Koln has written a superb text for it, her Rhetorical
>Grammar, which a lot of us have studied and have used as a text in
>our own classes. State College is a bit of a commute from
>Philadelphia, but I wonder if Martha or one of her colleagues will
>be offering such a course this summer.
>
>All the best!
>
>Herb
>
>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
>Sent: 2008-01-26 09:31
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
>
>Dear Fellow ATEG Members,
>I am interested in taking a course in grammar at a local college or
>university this summer.
>Does anyone happen to know of a college or university in the
>Philadelphia area that might be offering a grammar class
>or workshop for teachers? West Chester University is offering Intro.
>to Linguistics: "basic concepts of language description,
>classification, change, reconstruction, dialectology, and
>sociolinguistics" and Structure of Modern English: "a detailed
>analysis of the modern descriptive approach to the study of English
>grammar and how it compares with the traditional approach."
>Would anyone be able to recommend either of those courses
>or something else? I would like to increase my knowledge in the
>type of grammar that could possibly be applied to the composition
>classroom, a "writer's grammar." Maybe taking both of the courses
>would be beneficial, though I'm not sure that I have the time. Thank
>you for your time and possible feedback.
>Carol Morrison
>
>Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>Although I use Joo's Five clocks quite literally, I do not speak to my
>cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in the same idiolect
>that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or in talking with
>fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or in talking to colleagues
>at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a lecture at such an
>event.
>It should be noted that Formal English is within the scope of most
>non-English-speaking participants in international conferences; casual
>English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or writing an article
>for
>highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the banner of pedantry. My
>formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
>In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than it would be for
>speaking to a general audience--much as if I were speaking with friends
>in general conversation--a good group makes you feel that way.
>Scott Catledge
>
>I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's trap of trying
>to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>>
>>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>>> Bill Spruiell
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
>
>Never miss a thing.
>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--============_-1010684862==_ma============--
========================================================================Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 07:42:30 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="============_-1010684743==_ma============"
--============_-1010684743==_ma===========Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Carol,
It turns out I don't have your email address. Please get in touch with me.
Martha
>Carol,
>
>I hope you succeed in finding a course that treats grammar in ways
>that are relevant to the composition classroom. You put your finger
>on one of the curricular gaps in linguistics, English, and
>composition programs, the absence of just such courses. I've taught
>both of the courses you mention WCU is offering, and I'm not sure
>either is what you're looking for, given the descriptions you
>provide. An Intro Linguistics course will not address pedagogy,
>composition, or much of English grammar. It has too many other
>topics it has to cover to prepare students for more advanced courses
>in linguistics. A "Structure of Modern English" course will present
>an anatomy of English syntactic structures, possibly some material
>on English word formation, and maybe even some English phonology,
>although that tends to be neglected. It will likely be a very
>technical grammar course drawing heavily on linguistic concepts. It
>will almost certainly not deal with pedagogy or composition.
>
>The sort of course you seek is one a number of us have taught, and
>Martha Koln has written a superb text for it, her Rhetorical
>Grammar, which a lot of us have studied and have used as a text in
>our own classes. State College is a bit of a commute from
>Philadelphia, but I wonder if Martha or one of her colleagues will
>be offering such a course this summer.
>
>All the best!
>
>Herb
>
>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
>Sent: 2008-01-26 09:31
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
>
>Dear Fellow ATEG Members,
>I am interested in taking a course in grammar at a local college or
>university this summer.
>Does anyone happen to know of a college or university in the
>Philadelphia area that might be offering a grammar class
>or workshop for teachers? West Chester University is offering Intro.
>to Linguistics: "basic concepts of language description,
>classification, change, reconstruction, dialectology, and
>sociolinguistics" and Structure of Modern English: "a detailed
>analysis of the modern descriptive approach to the study of English
>grammar and how it compares with the traditional approach."
>Would anyone be able to recommend either of those courses
>or something else? I would like to increase my knowledge in the
>type of grammar that could possibly be applied to the composition
>classroom, a "writer's grammar." Maybe taking both of the courses
>would be beneficial, though I'm not sure that I have the time. Thank
>you for your time and possible feedback.
>Carol Morrison
>
>Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>Although I use Joo's Five clocks quite literally, I do not speak to my
>cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in the same idiolect
>that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or in talking with
>fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or in talking to colleagues
>at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a lecture at such an
>event.
>It should be noted that Formal English is within the scope of most
>non-English-speaking participants in international conferences; casual
>English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or writing an article
>for
>highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the banner of pedantry. My
>formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
>In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than it would be for
>speaking to a general audience--much as if I were speaking with friends
>in general conversation--a good group makes you feel that way.
>Scott Catledge
>
>I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's trap of trying
>to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>>
>>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>>> Bill Spruiell
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
>
>Never miss a thing.
>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--============_-1010684743==_ma============--
========================================================================Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 08:33:52 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
In-Reply-To:
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-668987249-1201451632=:6338--
========================================================================Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 08:45:05 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-415144197-1201452305=:54281"
--0-415144197-1201452305=:54281
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mulnx11.mcs.muohio.edu id m0RGj7X1003254
Thank you, Dr. Stahlke, for your advice and explanation of what the two courses at WCU would cover. There is so much to learn about grammar and the English language, I can't possibly expect to learn it all, at least not in one lifetime. Just being on this listserv for the past 6 months or so has shown me how much I don't know! I hope that taking some courses in grammar and/or linguistics will help; those courses are just hard to find.
Best -
Carol
"STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} Carol,
I hope you succeed in finding a course that treats grammar in ways that are relevant to the composition classroom. You put your finger on one of the curricular gaps in linguistics, English, and composition programs, the absence of just such courses. I’ve taught both of the courses you mention WCU is offering, and I’m not sure either is what you’re looking for, given the descriptions you provide. An Intro Linguistics course will not address pedagogy, composition, or much of English grammar. It has too many other topics it has to cover to prepare students for more advanced courses in linguistics. A “Structure of Modern English” course will present an anatomy of English syntactic structures, possibly some material on English word formation, and maybe even some English phonology, although that tends to be neglected. It will likely be a very technical grammar course drawing heavily on linguistic concepts. It will almost certainly not deal with pedagogy or composition.
The sort of course you seek is one a number of us have taught, and Martha Koln has written a superb text for it, her Rhetorical Grammar, which a lot of us have studied and have used as a text in our own classes. State College is a bit of a commute from Philadelphia, but I wonder if Martha or one of her colleagues will be offering such a course this summer.
All the best!
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: 2008-01-26 09:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
Dear Fellow ATEG Members,
I am interested in taking a course in grammar at a local college or university this summer.
Does anyone happen to know of a college or university in the Philadelphia area that might be offering a grammar class or workshop for teachers? West Chester University is offering Intro. to Linguistics: "basic concepts of language description, classification, change, reconstruction, dialectology, and sociolinguistics" and Structure of Modern English: "a detailed analysis of the modern descriptive approach to the study of English grammar and how it compares with the traditional approach." Would anyone be able to recommend either of those courses or something else? I would like to increase my knowledge in the type of grammar that could possibly be applied to the composition classroom, a "writer's grammar." Maybe taking both of the courses would be beneficial, though I'm not sure that I have the time. Thank you for your time and possible feedback.
Carol Morrison
Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Although I use Joo's Five clocks quite literally, I do not speak to my
cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in the same idiolect
that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or in talking with
fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or in talking to colleagues
at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a lecture at such an
event.
It should be noted that Formal English is within the scope of most
non-English-speaking participants in international conferences; casual
English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or writing an article
for
highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the banner of pedantry. My
formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than it would be for
speaking to a general audience--much as if I were speaking with friends
in general conversation--a good group makes you feel that way.
Scott Catledge
I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's trap of trying
to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>
>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>> Bill Spruiell
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
---------------------------------
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-415144197-1201452305=:54281--
========================================================================Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 15:27:04 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C86123.19656457"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C86123.19656457
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Carol,
You're welcome, and it's Herb.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: 2008-01-27 11:45
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
Thank you, Dr. Stahlke, for your advice and explanation of what the two
courses at WCU would cover. There is so much to learn about grammar and
the English language, I can't possibly expect to learn it all, at least
not in one lifetime. Just being on this listserv for the past 6 months
or so has shown me how much I don't know! I hope that taking some
courses in grammar and/or linguistics will help; those courses are just
hard to find.
Best -
Carol
"STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Carol,
I hope you succeed in finding a course that treats grammar in
ways that are relevant to the composition classroom. You put your
finger on one of the curricular gaps in linguistics, English, and
composition programs, the absence of just such courses. I've taught
both of the courses you mention WCU is offering, and I'm not sure either
is what you're looking for, given the descriptions you provide. An
Intro Linguistics course will not address pedagogy, composition, or much
of English grammar. It has too many other topics it has to cover to
prepare students for more advanced courses in linguistics. A "Structure
of Modern English" course will present an anatomy of English syntactic
structures, possibly some material on English word formation, and maybe
even some English phonology, although that tends to be neglected. It
will likely be a very technical grammar course drawing heavily on
linguistic concepts. It will almost certainly not deal with pedagogy or
composition.
The sort of course you seek is one a number of us have taught,
and Martha Koln has written a superb text for it, her Rhetorical
Grammar, which a lot of us have studied and have used as a text in our
own classes. State College is a bit of a commute from Philadelphia, but
I wonder if Martha or one of her colleagues will be offering such a
course this summer.
All the best!
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: 2008-01-26 09:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
Dear Fellow ATEG Members,
I am interested in taking a course in grammar at a local college
or university this summer.
Does anyone happen to know of a college or university in the
Philadelphia area that might be offering a grammar class or workshop for
teachers? West Chester University is offering Intro. to Linguistics:
"basic concepts of language description, classification, change,
reconstruction, dialectology, and sociolinguistics" and Structure of
Modern English: "a detailed analysis of the modern descriptive approach
to the study of English grammar and how it compares with the traditional
approach." Would anyone be able to recommend either of those courses or
something else? I would like to increase my knowledge in the type of
grammar that could possibly be applied to the composition classroom, a
"writer's grammar." Maybe taking both of the courses would be
beneficial, though I'm not sure that I have the time. Thank you for your
time and possible feedback.
Carol Morrison
Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Although I use Joo's Five clocks quite literally, I do
not speak to my
cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in
the same idiolect
that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or
in talking with
fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or in talking
to colleagues
at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a
lecture at such an
event.
It should be noted that Formal English is within the
scope of most
non-English-speaking participants in international
conferences; casual
English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or
writing an article
for
highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the banner
of pedantry. My
formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than
it would be for
speaking to a general audience--much as if I were
speaking with friends
in general conversation--a good group makes you feel
that way.
Scott Catledge
I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old grammar
pedant's trap of trying
to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>
>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>> Bill Spruiell
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Carol, You’re welcome, and it’s Herb. Herb From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol
Morrison Thank you, Dr. Stahlke, for your advice and explanation of
what the two courses at WCU would cover. There is so much to learn about
grammar and the English language, I can't possibly expect to learn it all, at
least not in one lifetime. Just being on this listserv for the past 6
months or so has shown me how much I don't know! I hope that taking some
courses in grammar and/or linguistics will help; those courses are just
hard to find. Best - Carol Carol, I hope you succeed in finding a course that treats grammar in
ways that are relevant to the composition classroom. You put your finger
on one of the curricular gaps in linguistics, English, and composition
programs, the absence of just such courses. I’ve taught both of the
courses you mention WCU is offering, and I’m not sure either is what you’re
looking for, given the descriptions you provide. An Intro Linguistics
course will not address pedagogy, composition, or much of English
grammar. It has too many other topics it has to cover to prepare students
for more advanced courses in linguistics. A “Structure of Modern English”
course will present an anatomy of English syntactic structures, possibly some
material on English word formation, and maybe even some English phonology,
although that tends to be neglected. It will likely be a very technical
grammar course drawing heavily on linguistic concepts. It will almost
certainly not deal with pedagogy or composition. The sort of course you seek is one a number of us have taught,
and Martha Koln has written a superb text for it, her Rhetorical Grammar,
which a lot of us have studied and have used as a text in our own
classes. State College is a bit of a commute from Philadelphia, but I
wonder if Martha or one of her colleagues will be offering such a course this
summer. All the best! Herb From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol
Morrison Dear Fellow ATEG Members, I am interested in taking a course in grammar at a
local college or university this summer. Does anyone happen to know of a college or university in the
Philadelphia area that might be offering a grammar class
or workshop for teachers? West Chester University is offering Intro.
to Linguistics: "basic concepts of language description,
classification, change, reconstruction, dialectology, and
sociolinguistics" and Structure of Modern English:
"a detailed analysis of the modern descriptive approach to the study of
English grammar and how it compares with the traditional approach."
Would anyone be able to recommend either of those courses
or something else? I would like to increase my knowledge in the
type of grammar that could possibly be applied to the composition
classroom, a "writer's grammar." Maybe taking both of the courses
would be beneficial, though I'm not sure that I have the time. Thank you for
your time and possible feedback. Carol Morrison Although I use Joo's Five clocks quite literally, I do not
speak to my Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo
your homepage. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C86123.19656457--
========================================================================Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 21:31:53 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
In-Reply-To: Thanks, Martha, and sorry for the missing <l>, turning you
into an umlautless German city. Herb From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Martha
Kolln Thank you, Herb, for your good words about
Rhetorical Grammar. Your endorsement means a great deal to me. I'll be in touch with you, Carol. We may be able to
organize a workshop. Martha Carol, I hope you succeed in finding a course that treats grammar
in ways that are relevant to the composition classroom. You put your
finger on one of the curricular gaps in linguistics, English, and composition
programs, the absence of just such courses. I've taught both of the
courses you mention WCU is offering, and I'm not sure either is what you're
looking for, given the descriptions you provide. An Intro Linguistics
course will not address pedagogy, composition, or much of English
grammar. It has too many other topics it has to cover to prepare students
for more advanced courses in linguistics. A "Structure of Modern
English" course will present an anatomy of English syntactic structures,
possibly some material on English word formation, and maybe even some English
phonology, although that tends to be neglected. It will likely be a very
technical grammar course drawing heavily on linguistic concepts. It will
almost certainly not deal with pedagogy or composition. The sort of course you seek is one a number of us have
taught, and Martha Koln has written a superb text for it, her Rhetorical
Grammar, which a lot of us have studied and have used as a text in our own
classes. State College is a bit of a commute from Philadelphia, but I
wonder if Martha or one of her colleagues will be offering such a course this
summer. All the best! Herb From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison Dear Fellow ATEG Members, I am interested in taking a course in grammar at a
local college or university this summer. Does anyone happen to know of a college or university in the
Philadelphia area that might be offering a grammar class
or workshop for teachers? West Chester University is offering
Intro. to Linguistics: "basic concepts of language description,
classification, change, reconstruction, dialectology, and
sociolinguistics" and Structure of Modern English: "a detailed
analysis of the modern descriptive approach to the study of English grammar and
how it compares with the traditional approach." Would anyone be able
to recommend either of those courses or something else? I would like
to increase my knowledge in the type of grammar that could possibly
be applied to the composition classroom, a "writer's grammar."
Maybe taking both of the courses would be beneficial, though I'm not sure that
I have the time. Thank you for your time and possible feedback. Carol Morrison Although I use Joo's Five clocks quite literally, I do not
speak to my To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web interface at: Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo
your homepage. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C86156.098644AB--
========================================================================Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:44:29 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Jan Kammert <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: apostrophe
Does this sentence need an apostrophe?
You earned 100% on the states geography test.
The sentences does not mean a geography test made by the state, but a test on the states... as in where the different states are located.
Thanks for your help.
Jan
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 23:41:10 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Nancy Tuten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: apostrophe
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I vote no.
Your question reminds me of the time our department had a huge debate about
whether the phrase "English Majors Society" needs an apostrophe. The English
majors were having tee-shirts made. We ended up agreeing that "Majors" is
attributive, not possessive.
Nancy
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
[log in to unmask]
803-786-3706
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jan Kammert
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 9:44 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: apostrophe
Does this sentence need an apostrophe?
You earned 100% on the states geography test.
The sentences does not mean a geography test made by the state, but a test
on the states... as in where the different states are located.
Thanks for your help.
Jan
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:35:52 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Tasmanian Devils
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask] >
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>DD: As further proof of the lack of the study of English word
>meanings consider;
>QUOTE
>Researchers are working toward an understanding of a unique
>transmissible and rapidly spreading cancer that threatens the very
>existence of Tasmanian devils. The disease has decimated the devil
>population by nearly 90 percent in certain geographical areas of
>Tasmania, and officials project that within twenty years the entire
>species could become extinct.
>END QUOTE
I wonder if they mean nine percent. {i.e. Ninety percent of ten
percent.} Nota bene; The authors of that also apparently slept
through Xeno and probably flunked the Calculus. Are proof readers
also a dying breed?
For citation and an interesting story of a dying breed, like unto
grammarians and Latin Teachers(?) see;
>Tasmanian Devils' Existence Threatened By Rapidly Spreading Cancer
>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080128173735.htm
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 07:25:46 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tasmanian Devils
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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DD,
Here's the relevant portion of the OED entry for "decimate."
4. transf. a. To kill, destroy, or remove one in every ten of. b. rhetorically or loosely. To destroy or remove a large proportion of; to subject to severe loss, slaughter, or mortality.
1663 J. SPENCER Prodigies (1665) 385 The..Lord..sometimes decimates a multitude of offenders, and discovers in the personal sufferings of a few what all deserve. 1812 W. TAYLOR in Monthly Rev. LXXIX. 181 An expurgatory index, pointing out the papers which it would be fatiguing to peruse, and thus decimating the contents into legibility. 1848 C. BRONTË Let. in Mrs. Gaskell Life 276 Typhus fever decimated the school periodically. 1875 LYELL Princ. Geol. II. III. xlii. 466 The whole animal Creation has been decimated again and again. 1877 FIELD Killarney to Golden Horn 340 This conscription weighs very heavily on the Mussulmen..who are thus decimated from year to year. 1883 L. OLIPHANT Haifa (1887) 76 Cholera..was then decimating the country.
Even as careful a writer as Charles Lyell, the originator of the uniformitarian hypothesis and the first major scientist to support Darwin, uses the word in sense 4b. And, of course, sense 4b begins to appear in print in Early Modern English, so it's got a pretty good pedigree.
If you look at the full entry, the military meaning as applied to the Roman army practice of killing every tenth man in a mutinous unit is the third meaning. The first two, which are obsolete, are "tithing" and "dividing into tenths."
I think you may almost be guilty of the etymological fallacy. But it was only the third meaning, so you're partly exonerated.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of DD Farms
Sent: 2008-01-29 20:36
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Tasmanian Devils
>DD: As further proof of the lack of the study of English word
>meanings consider;
>QUOTE
>Researchers are working toward an understanding of a unique
>transmissible and rapidly spreading cancer that threatens the very
>existence of Tasmanian devils. The disease has decimated the devil
>population by nearly 90 percent in certain geographical areas of
>Tasmania, and officials project that within twenty years the entire
>species could become extinct.
>END QUOTE
I wonder if they mean nine percent. {i.e. Ninety percent of ten
percent.} Nota bene; The authors of that also apparently slept
through Xeno and probably flunked the Calculus. Are proof readers
also a dying breed?
For citation and an interesting story of a dying breed, like unto
grammarians and Latin Teachers(?) see;
>Tasmanian Devils' Existence Threatened By Rapidly Spreading Cancer
>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080128173735.htm
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:36:48 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "R. Michael Medley (wsc)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: decimate
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Dictionaries I consulted list "kill every 10th person" as a second or
third meaning for the word decimate, with the first meaning more generally
to "destroy a great number or proportion of".
The usage note from the American Heritage Dictionary (online, 4th edition,
2006) reads:
"Decimate originally referred to the killing of every tenth person, a
punishment used in the Roman army for mutinous legions. Today this meaning
is commonly extended to include the killing of any large proportion of a
group. Sixty-six percent of the Usage Panel accepts this extension in the
sentence The Jewish population of Germany was decimated by the war, even
though it is common knowledge that the number of Jews killed was much
greater than a tenth of the original population. However, when the meaning
is further extended to include large-scale destruction other than killing,
as in The supply of fresh produce was decimated by the nuclear accident at
Chernobyl, only 26 percent of the Panel accepts the usage."
R. Michael Medley, Ph.D.
Director, Intensive English Program
and Professor of English
Eastern Mennonite University
1200 Park Rd. Harrisonburg, VA 22802
Office: (540) 432-4051 Fax: (540) 432-4444
Home: (540) 574-4277 [log in to unmask]
*************************************************
It is one thing to say with the prophet Amos, “Let justice roll down like
mighty waters,” and quite another to work out the irrigation system.
Clearly there is more certainty in the recognition of wrongs than there is
in the prescription for their cure. --William Sloane Coffin
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:16:10 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tasmanian Devils
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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At 06:25 AM 1/30/2008, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
>DD,
>Here's the relevant portion of the OED entry for "decimate." {And
>cited definition 4b.} . . .
DD: I know that the dictionaries go to usage. That hoi polloi use the
word in their ignorance of the underlying derivation does not bother
me. From a Information Theory view, I know what they mean.
>If you look at the full entry, the military meaning as applied to
>the Roman army practice of killing every tenth man in a mutinous
>unit is the third meaning. The first two, which are obsolete, are
>"tithing" and "dividing into tenths." . . .
DD: The point being it originally had the general meaning of one tenth.
>I think you may almost be guilty of the etymological fallacy. But
>it was only the third meaning, so you're partly exonerated.
DD: I think not. I was implying, not the Roman practice so much, as
the idea of tenth. Still I fall often to word folly.
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:47:27 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tasmanian Devils
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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So do you restrict the application of "dilapidated" only to stone
structures? Do you believe that "nice" _really_ means "ignorant"? Or
that a "gossip" is actually a godparent?
That line of thinking is generally known as the etymological fallacy for
good reason.
DD Farms wrote:
> At 06:25 AM 1/30/2008, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
>> DD,
>> Here's the relevant portion of the OED entry for "decimate." {And
>> cited definition 4b.} . . .
>
> DD: I know that the dictionaries go to usage. That hoi polloi use the
> word in their ignorance of the underlying derivation does not bother me.
> From a Information Theory view, I know what they mean.
>
>> If you look at the full entry, the military meaning as applied to the
>> Roman army practice of killing every tenth man in a mutinous unit is
>> the third meaning. The first two, which are obsolete, are "tithing"
>> and "dividing into tenths." . . .
>
> DD: The point being it originally had the general meaning of one tenth.
>
>> I think you may almost be guilty of the etymological fallacy. But it
>> was only the third meaning, so you're partly exonerated.
>
> DD: I think not. I was implying, not the Roman practice so much, as the
> idea of tenth. Still I fall often to word folly.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:07:01 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tasmanian Devils
In-Reply-To: A<[log in to unmask]>
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This may be why the current cohort of education majors I'm teaching
looked very confused when I asked them why there were so many fewer than
three hundred of them, and then asked them to don armor and line up for
drills. Even telling them that they might well have Gauls in their
classes failed to motivate them. I tried to bribe them with more salt,
but to no avail.
On a more serious note: we still have to deal with the distinction
between (a) meaning change that happened long ago and is not really
relevant to modern usage, although it may be fascinating otherwise, and
(b) ongoing meaning change that may or may not be inevitable, but which
(arguably) erases useful distinctions. I don't think I have to use
"decimate" in its original sense...but I still want to maintain the
distinction between "insure" and "ensure." That may be a picky example
(it's one I had drummed into me by a particular English teacher, so I
attach perhaps more weight to it than most) but I suspect that most of
the list's membership would agree that there is some utility in keeping
"imply" and "infer" separate. Even descriptive linguists have a
prescriptivist streak -- we just feel more conflicted about it.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 2:47 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Tasmanian Devils
So do you restrict the application of "dilapidated" only to stone
structures? Do you believe that "nice" _really_ means "ignorant"? Or
that a "gossip" is actually a godparent?
That line of thinking is generally known as the etymological fallacy for
good reason.
DD Farms wrote:
> At 06:25 AM 1/30/2008, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
>> DD,
>> Here's the relevant portion of the OED entry for "decimate." {And
>> cited definition 4b.} . . .
>
> DD: I know that the dictionaries go to usage. That hoi polloi use the
> word in their ignorance of the underlying derivation does not bother
me.
> From a Information Theory view, I know what they mean.
>
>> If you look at the full entry, the military meaning as applied to the
>> Roman army practice of killing every tenth man in a mutinous unit is
>> the third meaning. The first two, which are obsolete, are "tithing"
>> and "dividing into tenths." . . .
>
> DD: The point being it originally had the general meaning of one
tenth.
>
>> I think you may almost be guilty of the etymological fallacy. But it
>> was only the third meaning, so you're partly exonerated.
>
> DD: I think not. I was implying, not the Roman practice so much, as
the
> idea of tenth. Still I fall often to word folly.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 19:37:58 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Beth Young <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tasmanian Devils
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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>>> "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> 1/30/2008 5:07 PM >>>
Even descriptive linguists have a
prescriptivist streak -- we just feel more conflicted about it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now there's an entertaining topic . . . what prescriptivist tendencies will others of you admit to? I confess to being irritated by "ice tea"--it's tea with ice in it, not tea made of ice--despite the fact that I have no problem with "ice cream" or "ice water." (Though I guess "ice water" would be a closer call in any event, since ice & water are both h20.)
Beth (who should be grading papers)
(and who also feels conflicted about her pet peeves)
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:25:29 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Linda Di Desidero <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: apostrophe
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How about changing the name: "Map Test" or "US Map Test"
Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Assistant Academic Director of Writing
University of Maryland University College
3501 University Boulevard, East
Adelphi, MD 20783
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Nancy Tuten
Sent: Sun 1/27/2008 11:41 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: apostrophe
I vote no.
Your question reminds me of the time our department had a huge debate about
whether the phrase "English Majors Society" needs an apostrophe. The English
majors were having tee-shirts made. We ended up agreeing that "Majors" is
attributive, not possessive.
Nancy
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
[log in to unmask]
803-786-3706
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jan Kammert
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 9:44 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: apostrophe
Does this sentence need an apostrophe?
You earned 100% on the states geography test.
The sentences does not mean a geography test made by the state, but a test
on the states... as in where the different states are located.
Thanks for your help.
Jan
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:33:09 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "Kathleen M. Ward" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tasmanian Devils
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Apostrophe's. On plural's. Make me crazy.
I had to change my dog walking route because the better route took me
past a house labeled "The Bridewell's." I knew that if I kept
walking by that house, sooner or later I would be tempted to
vandalism, and I don't fancy working out the end of my career in the
pokey.
Kathleen Ward
UC Davis
On Jan 30, 2008, at 4:37 PM, Beth Young wrote:
>>>> "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> 1/30/2008 5:07 PM >>>
> Even descriptive linguists have a
> prescriptivist streak -- we just feel more conflicted about it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Now there's an entertaining topic . . . what prescriptivist
> tendencies will others of you admit to? I confess to being
> irritated by "ice tea"--it's tea with ice in it, not tea made of
> ice--despite the fact that I have no problem with "ice cream" or
> "ice water." (Though I guess "ice water" would be a closer call in
> any event, since ice & water are both h20.)
>
> Beth (who should be grading papers)
> (and who also feels conflicted about her pet peeves)
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:44:00 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Nancy Tuten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tasmanian Devils
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I often tell my students about the family who used to live across the street
from us (I really couldn't avoid them) and had "The Barnes" painted on their
mailbox. I tell the students that it would be no different than my having
"The Tuten" on my mailbox. I had to fight the urge to go over there under
cover of darkness and use a fat Sharpie to add the "es"--or at least to add
the word "Family" behind the name. Thank goodness they moved.
How about the lanes in grocery stores for patrons purchasing "Ten items or
less"? I tell my students (and it's not true, but they get a kick out of
it) that I will shop only at Publix grocery stores because the signs in
those stores say "Ten items or fewer."
And then there are the signs across roads announcing "Prepare to stop when
flashing." (But officer, I wasn't flashing!)
I guess I am, after all, a recovering prescriptivist . . .
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
[log in to unmask]
803-786-3706
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Kathleen M. Ward
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:33 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Tasmanian Devils
Apostrophe's. On plural's. Make me crazy.
I had to change my dog walking route because the better route took me
past a house labeled "The Bridewell's." I knew that if I kept
walking by that house, sooner or later I would be tempted to
vandalism, and I don't fancy working out the end of my career in the
pokey.
Kathleen Ward
UC Davis
On Jan 30, 2008, at 4:37 PM, Beth Young wrote:
>>>> "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> 1/30/2008 5:07 PM >>>
> Even descriptive linguists have a
> prescriptivist streak -- we just feel more conflicted about it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Now there's an entertaining topic . . . what prescriptivist
> tendencies will others of you admit to? I confess to being
> irritated by "ice tea"--it's tea with ice in it, not tea made of
> ice--despite the fact that I have no problem with "ice cream" or
> "ice water." (Though I guess "ice water" would be a closer call in
> any event, since ice & water are both h20.)
>
> Beth (who should be grading papers)
> (and who also feels conflicted about her pet peeves)
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:01:17 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tasmanian Devils
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Bill,
If salt doesn't work, try beans. If they wouldn't know a Gaul on sight,
they might recognize a Goth.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: 2008-01-30 17:07
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Tasmanian Devils
This may be why the current cohort of education majors I'm teaching
looked very confused when I asked them why there were so many fewer than
three hundred of them, and then asked them to don armor and line up for
drills. Even telling them that they might well have Gauls in their
classes failed to motivate them. I tried to bribe them with more salt,
but to no avail.
On a more serious note: we still have to deal with the distinction
between (a) meaning change that happened long ago and is not really
relevant to modern usage, although it may be fascinating otherwise, and
(b) ongoing meaning change that may or may not be inevitable, but which
(arguably) erases useful distinctions. I don't think I have to use
"decimate" in its original sense...but I still want to maintain the
distinction between "insure" and "ensure." That may be a picky example
(it's one I had drummed into me by a particular English teacher, so I
attach perhaps more weight to it than most) but I suspect that most of
the list's membership would agree that there is some utility in keeping
"imply" and "infer" separate. Even descriptive linguists have a
prescriptivist streak -- we just feel more conflicted about it.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 2:47 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Tasmanian Devils
So do you restrict the application of "dilapidated" only to stone
structures? Do you believe that "nice" _really_ means "ignorant"? Or
that a "gossip" is actually a godparent?
That line of thinking is generally known as the etymological fallacy for
good reason.
DD Farms wrote:
> At 06:25 AM 1/30/2008, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
>> DD,
>> Here's the relevant portion of the OED entry for "decimate." {And
>> cited definition 4b.} . . .
>
> DD: I know that the dictionaries go to usage. That hoi polloi use the
> word in their ignorance of the underlying derivation does not bother
me.
> From a Information Theory view, I know what they mean.
>
>> If you look at the full entry, the military meaning as applied to the
>> Roman army practice of killing every tenth man in a mutinous unit is
>> the third meaning. The first two, which are obsolete, are "tithing"
>> and "dividing into tenths." . . .
>
> DD: The point being it originally had the general meaning of one
tenth.
>
>> I think you may almost be guilty of the etymological fallacy. But it
>> was only the third meaning, so you're partly exonerated.
>
> DD: I think not. I was implying, not the Roman practice so much, as
the
> idea of tenth. Still I fall often to word folly.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>
>
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:09:10 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tasmanian Devils
In-Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:10:21 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tasmanian Devils
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I know I have told this story to some on this list, so forgive me if I repeat myself. As a young college freshman (1963), I had to read R. R. Palmer's history tome, and one of his sentences included a modification of "unique." In his estimation, something was more or less unique than something else. Now you need to be aware of my upbringing - some children are taught to look both ways before they cross the street, others to always be polite to adults. I was taught never to modify the word "unique." Mr. Palmer was in obvious need of my instruction, and I upbraided him in a letter in which great umbrage was taken. Some weeks later, I received a reply from R. R. himself, which read as follows: "Dear Mr. Layton: You are quite right although unduly concerned."
Geoff Layton
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:11:55 -0800From: [log in to unmask]: Re: Tasmanian DevilsTo: [log in to unmask]
The "less" vs. "fewer" issue seems to be getting worse every day -- as is the "so fun" issue. I hear both of them often.
I don't think it's a grammar devil, but my nose gets out of joint when I hear (more and more) people say, "That begs the question ... " when they really mean it "asks" the question! Am I a prescriptive rhetoricist (is rhetoricist a word?)?
Paul D.
----- Original Message ----From: Nancy Tuten <[log in to unmask]>To: [log in to unmask]: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:44:00 PMSubject: Re: Tasmanian DevilsI often tell my students about the family who used to live across the streetfrom us (I really couldn't avoid them) and had "The Barnes" painted on theirmailbox. I tell the students that it would be no different than my having"The Tuten" on my mailbox. I had to fight the urge to go over there undercover of darkness and use a fat Sharpie to add the "es"--or at least to addthe word "Family" behind the name. Thank goodness they moved.How about the lanes in grocery stores for patrons purchasing "Ten items orless"? I tell my students (and it's not true, but they get a kick out ofit) that I will shop only at Publix grocery stores because the signs inthose stores say "Ten items or fewer." And then there are the signs across roads announcing "Prepare to stop whenflashing." (But officer, I wasn't flashing!)I guess I am, after all, a recovering prescriptivist . . . Nancy L. Tuten, PhDProfessor of EnglishDirector of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum ProgramColumbia CollegeColumbia, South [log in to unmask] Message-----From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Kathleen M. WardSent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:33 PMTo: [log in to unmask]: Re: Tasmanian DevilsApostrophe's. On plural's. Make me crazy.I had to change my dog walking route because the better route took me past a house labeled "The Bridewell's." I knew that if I kept walking by that house, sooner or later I would be tempted to vandalism, and I don't fancy working out the end of my career in the pokey.Kathleen WardUC DavisOn Jan 30, 2008, at 4:37 PM, Beth Young wrote:>>>> "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> 1/30/2008 5:07 PM >>>> Even descriptive linguists have a> prescriptivist streak -- we just feel more conflicted about it.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now there's an entertaining topic . . . what prescriptivist > tendencies will others of you admit to? I confess to being > irritated by "ice tea"--it's tea with ice in it, not tea made of > ice--despite the fact that I have no problem with "ice cream" or > "ice water." (Though I guess "ice water" would be a closer call in > any event, since ice & water are both h20.)>> Beth (who should be grading papers)> (and who also feels conflicted about her pet peeves)>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and select "Join or leave the list">> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfaceat: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before each coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book,
Clarice Bean Spells Trouble by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like this: "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much anymore and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play soccer, but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."
I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest place to find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't searched methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become one of those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to in order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until they're ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are effective or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a better rule.
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Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008
2:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Commas in compound
sentences
Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for
elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before each
coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book, Clarice Bean Spells Trouble by Lauren
Child. It is full of sentences like this: "Grandad has
actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much anymore and he hasn't
let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly mannerless."
This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up sentences, the commas
looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play soccer, but the doctor said
he should rest his injured leg."
I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest place to find
compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't searched
methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both fiction
and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has
become one of those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes
resort to in order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until
they're ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are
effective or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer
is a better rule.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list"
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Commas in compound sentences
Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for
elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before each
coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book, Clarice
Bean Spells Trouble by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like
this: "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that
much anymore and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly
mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up
sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play soccer,
but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."
I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest place to find
compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't searched
methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both fiction
and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has
become one of those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes
resort to in order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until
they're ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are
effective or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer
is a better rule.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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the list"
It is not just fiction writers who omit the comma on occasion, as someone has pointed out, but what has struck me in my studies is how often all kinds of writers put a PERIOD in front of the conjunction. It seems to depend upon what effect they want.
Ed Schuster
**************
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From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William
C
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:08 PM
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound
sentences
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:32
PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Commas in compound
sentences
Last night,
I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for elementary and middle
school teachers. I inserted the comma before each coordinating
conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book, Clarice Bean Spells
Trouble by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like this:
"Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much anymore and
he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly
mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up
sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play soccer, but
the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."
I know that fiction
narrated in the first person is the likeliest place to find compound sentences
without commas. But, though I haven't searched methodically, I think I
have noticed them all over the place, in both fiction and nonfiction for both
younger and older readers.
I wonder whether the
comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become one of those pedagogic
oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to in order to give learners
something clear and secure to grasp until they're ready for more
complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are effective or justified is
a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a better rule.
To
join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the
list"
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:38
PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in
compound sentences
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William
C
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:08 PM
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound
sentences
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:32
PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Commas in compound
sentences
Last night,
I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for elementary and middle
school teachers. I inserted the comma before each coordinating
conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book, Clarice Bean Spells
Trouble by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like this:
"Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much anymore and
he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly
mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up
sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play soccer, but
the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."
I know that fiction
narrated in the first person is the likeliest place to find compound sentences
without commas. But, though I haven't searched methodically, I think I
have noticed them all over the place, in both fiction and nonfiction for both
younger and older readers.
I wonder whether the
comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become one of those pedagogic
oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to in order to give learners
something clear and secure to grasp until they're ready for more
complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are effective or justified is
a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a better rule.
To
join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the
list"
From:
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 7:21 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentencesKarl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on this question. The
problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the perspective of
teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on any consistent
theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion of cultural
practices that have gained varying
degrees of acceptance in different
parts of the world and of English speaking cultures. Run-on sentences
and comma splices frequently represent cases where the spoken language
expresses relationships between clauses that the written language, with,
for example, its lack of intonation and stress contrast, cannot
distinguish. Turabian correctly recognizes that not all coordinate
clauses are the same and that punctuation practice can vary. Compare
the following sentences:
1. Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache.
2. Harry ate five green apples, and he got a stomach ache.
In (1) there is clearly a connection between the two events, the first
preceding and causing the second. (2), on the other hand, suggests that
both things took place but that we should not assume a relationship
between them. In speech, this contrast would be distinguished by a
slight intonational rise on "apples" in (1) and falling intonation
on
"apples" in (2).
This sense that the two clauses are related in ways that go beyond both
simply being asserted is at the basis of a lot of the run-ons I've seen.
Comma splices tend to be a more complicated problem, partly because
there are more grammatical factors to consider: presence or absence of
a conjunctive adverb, intonation contour, presence or absence of a
coordinating conjunction, use of a semi-colon or a comma, clausal vs.
phrasal status of the second element, etc. It's easy to state a rule
that two clauses are separated by a comma only if the second begins with
a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one of four methods must be used:
(a) put a period after the first and capitalize the first letter of the
second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use a semi-colon and a conjunctive
adverb, (d) put a period after the first and capitalize the conjunctive
adverb (some editors reject this option).
In (3), any of the
standard options would work:
3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has seen a lot of accidents; therefore,
the city council ordered four-way stop signs installed.
However, in (4) the semantic relationship between the two clauses is
close enough that a writer may not want the force of the semi-colon and
may sense that a comma fits the relationship better:
4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach ache.
Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this is a
deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability. I would
certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career decisions are
to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many comma
splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say something
that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to allow.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
My observations:
1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but not
exclusively, in fiction.
2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for short,
closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under that
exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of commas
was meant to convey a more conversational tone.
3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that require
students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as to why it
can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear to avoid
clauses that might fall under the short & related exception.
I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule at first,
perhaps not
until high school. Give them some time to get an intuitive
feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of clauses.
Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense.
Michael Kischner wrote:
> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma
before
> a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and
omitting
> the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly
fiction
> books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it
is
> certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels
to use
> the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print.
>
> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for
> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before
each
> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book,
*Clarice
>
Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like
this:
> "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much
anymore
> and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly
> mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up
> sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play
soccer,
> but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."
>
> I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest
place to
> find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't
searched
> methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both
> fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
>
> I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become
one of
> those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to
in
> order to give
learners something clear and secure to grasp until
they're
> ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are
effective
> or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a
better
> rule.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 1:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
"STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the perspective of
teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on any consistent
theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion of cultural
practices that have gained varying degrees of acceptance in different
parts of the world and of English speaking cultures. Run-on sentences
and comma splices frequently represent cases where the spoken language
expresses relationships between clauses that the written language, with,
for example, its lack of intonation and stress contrast, cannot
distinguish. Turabian correctly recognizes that not all coordinate
clauses are the same and that punctuation practice can vary. Compare
the following sentences:
1. Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache.
2. Harry ate five green apples, and he got a stomach ache.
In (1) there is clearly a connection between the two events, the first
preceding and causing the second. (2), on the other hand, suggests that
both things took place but that we should not assume a relationship
between them. In speech, this contrast would be distinguished by a
slight intonational rise on "apples" in (1) and falling intonation on
"apples" in (2).
This sense that the two clauses are related in ways that go beyond both
simply being asserted is at the basis of a lot of the run-ons I've seen.
Comma splices tend to be a more complicated problem, partly because
there are more grammatical factors to consider: presence or absence of
a conjunctive adverb, intonation contour, presence or absence of a
coordinating conjunction, use of a semi-colon or a comma, clausal vs.
phrasal status of the second element, etc. It's easy to state a rule
that two clauses are separated by a comma only if the second begins with
a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one of four methods must be used:
(a) put a period after the first and capitalize the first letter of the
second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use a semi-colon and a conjunctive
adverb, (d) put a period after the first and capitalize the conjunctive
adverb (some editors reject this option).
In (3), any of the standard options would work:
3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has seen a lot of accidents; therefore,
the city council ordered four-way stop signs installed.
However, in (4) the semantic relationship between the two clauses is
close enough that a writer may not want the force of the semi-colon and
may sense that a comma fits the relationship better:
4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach ache.
Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this is a
deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability. I would
certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career decisions are
to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many comma
splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say something
that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to allow.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
My observations:
1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but not
exclusively, in fiction.
2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for short,
closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under that
exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of commas
was meant to convey a more conversational tone.
3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that require
students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as to why it
can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear to avoid
clauses that might fall under the short & related exception.
I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule at first,
perhaps not until high school. Give them some time to get an intuitive
feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of clauses.
Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense.
Michael Kischner wrote:
> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma
before
> a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and
omitting
> the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly
fiction
> books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it
is
> certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels
to use
> the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print.
>
> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for
> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before
each
> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book,
*Clarice
> Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like
this:
> "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much
anymore
> and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly
> mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up
> sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play
soccer,
> but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."
>
> I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest
place to
> find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't
searched
> methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both
> fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
>
> I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has
become
one of
> those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to
in
> order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until
they're
> ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are
effective
> or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a
better
> rule.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity."It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel and I have been doing over the past ten years might turn out to be valuable.
>>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>>
. . . our students are often making sensible errors,
also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they
are bringing into play.
If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying systems of the language" that students bring to their writing, you might want to consult the following paper:
Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on the relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, 22, 35-49.
We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that paper, we try to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the language" leads to error corrections that will not help such students improve.
Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level errors. Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47.
At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native and non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like structures (we don't like the term "error" either) are principled.
Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention of the list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read it.
There is something right about the following by Craig:
The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.
A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is based only on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions based on the frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem accounting for these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if language is a series of constructions, why are students punctuation practices so deviant from most of the input they have received?
In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those principles might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. This is interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is most insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguistics. Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind. It is puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying system of language our students bring to writing but he has a commitment to a view of language that cannot address what those underlying principles are.
To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts to explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's supposition above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know.
Bob Yates
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 1:24 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which
I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity."
>>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
01/11/08 8:47 AM >>>
. . . our students are often making sensible errors,
also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they
are bringing into play.
If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying systems of
the language" that students bring to their writing, you might want to
consult the following paper:
Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on the
relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, 22,
35-49.
We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that paper, we try
to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the language"
leads to error corrections that will not help such students improve.
Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level errors.
Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47.
At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of
non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native and
non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like structures (we
don't like the term "error" either) are principled.
Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention of the list
our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read it.
There is something right about the following by Craig:
The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which
I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.
A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is based only
on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions based on the
frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem accounting for
these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if language is a
series of constructions, why are students punctuation practices so deviant from
most of the input they have received?
In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those principles
might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. This is
interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is most insightful
to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguistics. Halliday is
quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind. It is puzzling that
Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying system of language our
students bring to writing but he has a commitment to a view of language that
cannot address what those underlying principles are.
To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts to explain
run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's supposition above
is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know.
Bob Yates
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list" Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on this
question. The
problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the
perspective of
teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on
any consistent
theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion
of cultural
practices that have gained varying
degrees of acceptance in different
parts of the world and of English
speaking cultures. Run-on sentences
and comma splices frequently
represent cases where the spoken language
expresses relationships between
clauses that the written language, with,
for example, its lack of
intonation and stress contrast, cannot
distinguish. Turabian correctly
recognizes that not all coordinate
clauses are the same and that
punctuation practice can vary. Compare
the following sentences:
1.
Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache.
2. Harry ate five
green apples, and he got a stomach ache.
In (1) there is clearly a
connection between the two events, the first
preceding and causing the
second. (2), on the other hand, suggests that
both things took place but
that we should not assume a relationship
between them. In speech, this
contrast would be distinguished by a
slight intonational rise on "apples"
in (1) and falling intonation
on
"apples" in (2).
This sense that the two clauses are related
in ways that go beyond both
simply being asserted is at the basis of a
lot of the run-ons I've seen.
Comma splices tend to be a more
complicated problem, partly because
there are more grammatical factors to
consider: presence or absence of
a conjunctive adverb, intonation
contour, presence or absence of a
coordinating conjunction, use of a
semi-colon or a comma, clausal vs.
phrasal status of the second element,
etc. It's easy to state a rule
that two clauses are separated by a comma
only if the second begins with
a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one
of four methods must be used:
(a) put a period after the first and
capitalize the first letter of the
second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use
a semi-colon and a conjunctive
adverb, (d) put a period after the first
and capitalize the conjunctive
adverb (some editors reject this
option).
In (3), any of the
standard options would work:
3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has
seen a lot of accidents; therefore,
the city council ordered four-way
stop signs installed.
However, in (4) the semantic relationship
between the two clauses is
close enough that a writer may not want the
force of the semi-colon and
may sense that a comma fits the relationship
better:
4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach
ache.
Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this
is a
deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability. I
would
certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career decisions
are
to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many
comma
splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say
something
that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to
allow.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for
the Teaching of English
Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl
Hagen
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound
sentences
My observations:
1. You're right that the rule is
often ignored, especially but not
exclusively, in fiction.
2. Some
style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for short,
closely
related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under that
exception,
although you could just as well say that the lack of commas
was meant to
convey a more conversational tone.
3. The big standardized tests
(SAT, ACT) contain questions that require
students to apply this rule, so
there are practical reasons as to why it
can't just be jettisoned. From
what I've observed, they appear to avoid
clauses that might fall under
the short & related exception.
I do think, though, that younger
students don't need this rule at first,
perhaps not
until high school. Give them some time to get an intuitive
feel for
sentence combining and to build up an understanding of clauses.
Only
after that will the punctuation rules make much sense.
Michael
Kischner wrote:
> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching
that placing a comma
before
> a coordinating conjunction in a
compound sentence is the rule and
omitting
> the comma is the
exception? I have been reading through mostly
fiction
> books for
elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it
is
>
certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels
to
use
> the comma, we are up against most of what they see in
print.
>
> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use
in a workshop for
> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted
the comma before
each
> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most
of a delightful book,
*Clarice
>
Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences
like
this:
> "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use
them that much
anymore
> and he hasn't let the dog see them, which
is why Cement is utterly
> mannerless." This morning, when I returned
to my carefully made-up
> sentences, the commas looked like clutter:
"Matthew wanted to play
soccer,
> but the doctor said he should
rest his injured leg."
>
> I know that fiction narrated in the
first person is the likeliest
place to
> find compound sentences
without commas. But, though I haven't
searched
> methodically, I
think I have noticed them all over the place, in both
> fiction and
nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
>
> I wonder
whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become
one of
>
those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort
to
in
> order to give
learners something clear and secure to grasp until
they're
> ready
for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications
are
effective
> or justified is a whole other question. What I
think I'd prefer is a
better
> rule.
>
> To join or
leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select
"Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or
leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To
join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or
leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 1:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
"STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the perspective of
teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on any consistent
theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion of cultural
practices that have gained varying degrees of acceptance in different
parts of the world and of English speaking cultures. Run-on sentences
and comma splices frequently represent cases where the spoken language
expresses relationships between clauses that the written language, with,
for example, its lack of intonation and stress contrast, cannot
distinguish. Turabian correctly recognizes that not all coordinate
clauses are the same and that punctuation practice can vary. Compare
the following sentences:
1. Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache.
2. Harry ate five green apples, and he got a stomach ache.
In (1) there is clearly a connection between the two events, the first
preceding and causing the second. (2), on the other hand, suggests that
both things took place but that we should not assume a relationship
between them. In speech, this contrast would be distinguished by a
slight intonational rise on "apples" in (1) and falling intonation on
"apples" in (2).
This sense that the two clauses are related in ways that go beyond both
simply being asserted is at the basis of a lot of the run-ons I've seen.
Comma splices tend to be a more complicated problem, partly because
there are more grammatical factors to consider: presence or absence of
a conjunctive adverb, intonation contour, presence or absence of a
coordinating conjunction, use of a semi-colon or a comma, clausal vs.
phrasal status of the second element, etc. It's easy to state a rule
that two clauses are separated by a comma only if the second begins with
a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one of four methods must be used:
(a) put a period after the first and capitalize the first letter of the
second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use a semi-colon and a conjunctive
adverb, (d) put a period after the first and capitalize the conjunctive
adverb (some editors reject this option).
In (3), any of the standard options would work:
3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has seen a lot of accidents; therefore,
the city council ordered four-way stop signs installed.
However, in (4) the semantic relationship between the two clauses is
close enough that a writer may not want the force of the semi-colon and
may sense that a comma fits the relationship better:
4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach ache.
Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this is a
deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability. I would
certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career decisions are
to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many comma
splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say something
that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to allow.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
My observations:
1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but not
exclusively, in fiction.
2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for short,
closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under that
exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of commas
was meant to convey a more conversational tone.
3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that require
students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as to why it
can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear to avoid
clauses that might fall under the short & related exception.
I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule at first,
perhaps not until high school. Give them some time to get an intuitive
feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of clauses.
Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense.
Michael Kischner wrote:
> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma
before
> a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and
omitting
> the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly
fiction
> books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it
is
> certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels
to use
> the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print.
>
> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for
> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before
each
> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book,
*Clarice
> Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like
this:
> "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much
anymore
> and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly
> mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up
> sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play
soccer,
> but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."
>
> I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest
place to
> find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't
searched
> methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both
> fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.
>
> I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has
become
one of
> those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to
in
> order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until
they're
> ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are
effective
> or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a
better
> rule.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
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>
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experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity."It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel and I have been doing over the past ten years might turn out to be valuable.
>>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>>
. . . our students are often making sensible errors,
also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they
are bringing into play.
If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying systems of the language" that students bring to their writing, you might want to consult the following paper:
Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on the relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, 22, 35-49.
We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that paper, we try to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the language" leads to error corrections that will not help such students improve.
Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level errors. Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47.
At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native and non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like structures (we don't like the term "error" either) are principled.
Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention of the list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read it.
There is something right about the following by Craig:
The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.
A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is based only on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions based on the frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem accounting for these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if language is a series of constructions, why are students punctuation practices so deviant from most of the input they have received?
In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those principles might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. This is interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is most insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguistics. Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind. It is puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying system of language our students bring to writing but he has a commitment to a view of language that cannot address what those underlying principles are.
To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts to explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's supposition above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know.
Bob Yates
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Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 1:24 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which
I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity."
>>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
01/11/08 8:47 AM >>>
. . . our students are often making sensible errors,
also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they
are bringing into play.
If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying systems of
the language" that students bring to their writing, you might want to
consult the following paper:
Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on the
relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, 22,
35-49.
We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that paper, we try
to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the language"
leads to error corrections that will not help such students improve.
Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level errors.
Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47.
At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of
non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native and
non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like structures (we
don't like the term "error" either) are principled.
Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention of the list
our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read it.
There is something right about the following by Craig:
The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my
experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first
in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to
love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which
I
would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one
idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a
half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.
A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is based only
on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions based on the
frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem accounting for
these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if language is a
series of constructions, why are students punctuation practices so deviant from
most of the input they have received?
In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those principles
might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. This is
interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is most insightful
to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguistics. Halliday is
quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind. It is puzzling that
Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying system of language our
students bring to writing but he has a commitment to a view of language that
cannot address what those underlying principles are.
To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts to explain
run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's supposition above
is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know.
Bob Yates
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Elizabeth Clark
> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:36:16 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: tion & nouns
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> I teach middle school. One of the teachers in my district (not my building) said that all words that end in -tion are nouns. I never heard that before, but I thought of all the words I could that end in -tion. I think he might be right.
>
> Then I thought maybe all words that end in just -ion are nouns. Am I right? Maybe this information will help my students, but I don't want to tell them something wrong.
>
> If all words that end is -ion are nouns, can someone tell me why? Is there some history about those words?
> Thanks!
> Jan
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Here's a list (generated from an aspell
file) of all the reasonably
common verbs ending in -tion. All were ultimately derived from
nouns,
although for some of them (e.g., apportion) the conversion took
place
before the word was borrowed.
It's not a large list, but it does show that the -tion = N rule is too
tidy.
apportion
auction
audition
caption
caution
condition
function
malfunction
mention
motion
partition
petition
portion
position
precondition
proportion
proposition
question
ration
reapportion
recondition
reposition
requisition
sanction
section
station
vacation
rbetting wrote:
> Herb,
>
> Comments on noun functions. Does calling nouns used this way
adjective make
> sense to students? Our linguistic system likes to be able to
manipulate form
> words into other parts of speech, nouns to verbs and so on. One
choice that
> appears to be handy is our use of nouns as modifiers, as in
"the stocking
> committee planning chart" or "a fan belt compression
fitting design plan."
> So we might hear of a "site plan coordination effort
currently underway." I
> just read about the " 2007 Devils Lake operation summary
report document."
> How's this: "The linear realignment task force control
system planning
> session." That could apply to grammar study.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 9:33 AM
> Subject: Re: tion & nouns
>
>
> Linda,
>
> You're right that nouns can modify nouns and therefore function
as
> adjectives. And function is a nice instance of a verb in
-tion.
> English borrowed "function" from French as a noun in
the late 16th c.
> It's verb use doesn't appear until 1856.
>
> And your cynicism is well founded.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda
Comerford
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 11:50 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: tion & nouns
>
> Can't words ending in -tion (or -ion) also function as adjectives
like
> an
> election poll (or like a verb as used in this sentence:
function)? I'm
> all
> for simplifying as much as possible for my students, but I've
learned to> be
> cynical about using the words "all" or "none"
regarding grammar.
>
> Linda
>
>
>
> Linda Comerford
> 317.786.6404
> [log in to unmask]
> www.comerfordconsulting.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jan Kammert
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 12:36 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: tion & nouns
>
>
> I teach middle school. One of the teachers in my district
(not my
> building)
> said that all words that end in -tion are nouns. I never
heard that
> before,
> but I thought of all the words I could that end in -tion. I
think he
> might
> be right.
>
> Then I thought maybe all words that end in just -ion are nouns.
Am I
> right?
> Maybe this information will help my students, but I don't want to
tell
> them
> something wrong.
>
> If all words that end is -ion are nouns, can someone tell me
why? Is
> there
> some history about those words?
> Thanks!
> Jan
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web
> interface
> at:
>
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web
> interface at:
>
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> at:
>
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
>
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/Here's a list (generated from an aspell file) of all the reasonably
common verbs ending in -tion. All were ultimately derived from nouns,
although for some of them (e.g., apportion) the conversion took place
before the word was borrowed.
It's not a large list, but it does show that the -tion = N rule is too tidy.
apportion
auction
audition
caption
caution
condition
function
malfunction
mention
motion
partition
petition
portion
position
precondition
proportion
proposition
question
ration
reapportion
recondition
reposition
requisition
sanction
section
station
vacation
rbetting wrote:
> Herb,
>
> Comments on noun functions. Does calling nouns used this way adjective make
> sense to students? Our linguistic system likes to be able to manipulate form
> words into other parts of speech, nouns to verbs and so on. One choice that
> appears to be handy is our use of nouns as modifiers, as in "the stocking
> committee planning chart" or "a fan belt compression fitting design plan."
> So we might hear of a "site plan coordination effort currently underway." I
> just read about the " 2007 Devils Lake operation summary report document."
> How's this: "The linear realignment task force control system planning
> session." That could apply to grammar study.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <hstahlkTo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Martha
Kolln
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 4:34 PM
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tion &
nounsHere's a list (generated from an aspell file)
of all the reasonably
common verbs ending in -tion. All were ultimately
derived from nouns,
although for some of them (e.g., apportion) the
conversion took place
before the word was borrowed.
It's not a large
list, but it does show that the -tion = N rule is too
tidy.
apportion
auction
audition
caption
caution
condition
function
malfunction
mention
motion
partition
petition
portion
position
precondition
proportion
proposition
question
ration
reapportion
recondition
reposition
requisition
sanction
section
station
vacation
rbetting
wrote:
> Herb,
>
> Comments on noun functions. Does calling
nouns used this way adjective make
> sense to students? Our linguistic
system likes to be able to manipulate form
> words into other parts of
speech, nouns to verbs and so on. One choice that
> appears to be handy
is our use of nouns as modifiers, as in "the stocking
> committee
planning chart" or "a fan belt compression fitting design plan."
> So we
might hear of a "site plan coordination effort currently underway." I
>
just read about the " 2007 Devils Lake operation summary report
document."
> How's this: "The linear realignment task force control
system planning
> session." That could apply to grammar study.
>
----- Original Message -----
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F"
<[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 9:33 AM
> Subject: Re: tion &
nouns
>
>
> Linda,
>
> You're right that nouns
can modify nouns and therefore function as
> adjectives. And
function is a nice instance of a verb in -tion.
> English borrowed
"function" from French as a noun in the late 16th c.
> It's verb use
doesn't appear until 1856.
>
> And your cynicism is well
founded.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda
Comerford
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 11:50 PM
> To:
[log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: tion & nouns
>
>
Can't words ending in -tion (or -ion) also function as adjectives like
>
an
> election poll (or like a verb as used in this sentence:
function)? I'm
> all
> for simplifying as much as possible for my
students, but I've learned to> be
> cynical about using the words
"all" or "none" regarding grammar.
>
>
Linda
>
>
>
> Linda Comerford
>
317.786.6404
> [log in to unmask]
>
www.comerfordconsulting.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jan Kammert
> Sent:
Sunday, January 13, 2008 12:36 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
Subject: tion & nouns
>
>
> I teach middle school.
One of the teachers in my district (not my
> building)
> said that
all words that end in -tion are nouns. I never heard that
>
before,
> but I thought of all the words I could that end in
-tion. I think he
> might
> be right.
>
> Then I
thought maybe all words that end in just -ion are nouns. Am I
>
right?
> Maybe this information will help my students, but I don't want
to tell
> them
> something wrong.
>
> If all words
that end is -ion are nouns, can someone tell me why? Is
>
there
> some history about those words?
> Thanks!
>
Jan
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
list's web
> interface
> at:
>
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or
leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
visit the list's web
> interface
at:
>
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or
leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
visit the list's web interface
>
at:
>
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or
leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
visit the list's web interface at:
>
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or
leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/
>
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list,
please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the
list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter
Adams
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 5:32 PM
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tion &
nouns
Here's a list (generated from an aspell
file) of all the reasonably
common verbs ending in -tion. All were
ultimately derived from nouns,
although for some of them (e.g.,
apportion) the conversion took place
before the word was
borrowed.
It's not a large list, but it does show that the -tion = N
rule is too
tidy.
apportion
auction
audition
caption
caution
condition
function
malfunction
mention
motion
partition
petition
portion
position
precondition
proportion
proposition
question
ration
reapportion
recondition
reposition
requisition
sanction
section
station
vacation
rbetting
wrote:
> Herb,
>
> Comments on noun functions. Does
calling nouns used this way adjective make
> sense to students? Our
linguistic system likes to be able to manipulate form
> words into
other parts of speech, nouns to verbs and so on. One choice that
>
appears to be handy is our use of nouns as modifiers, as in "the
stocking
> committee planning chart" or "a fan belt compression
fitting design plan."
> So we might hear of a "site plan coordination
effort currently underway." I
> just read about the " 2007 Devils Lake
operation summary report document."
> How's this: "The linear
realignment task force control system planning
> session." That could
apply to grammar study.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
"STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <hstahlkTo join or
leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the
list"
Martha,
Could help me a little further with the
form/function distinction.
I'm wondering about a word like
"red," which seems to be an adjective but also seems to
satisfy the tests for a noun:
Many of the reds in Carpaccio's paintings
have faded over the years. (has a plural form)
The red's intensity drew my eye to the
corner of the painting. (takes possessive; takes
determiner)
But would that mean that "red"
in the following sentence is a noun in form but functioning as an
adjectival?
The red bathrobe was draped over the back
of the chair.
Another example: the word "smooth."
which, at first glance seems to be an adjective.
The smooth surface of the river disguised
the fact that it was flowing rapidly.
But what about when it's used as a
verb?
John Edwards smoothed Joe Biden's ruffled
feathers.
Is this an adjective used as a verb?
Or, does it make more sense to say there are two words spelled
and pronounced the same--smooth--but one is a verb and a different
word smooth is an adjective?
One more example. How do we decide
whether words like "ride" or "walk" are nouns that
can function as verbs or verbs that can function as
nouns?
I took two rides on
Saturday.
The ride's ending was a great
surprise.
We ride/rode for hours
They will ride until the sun
sets.
Our walks took place regardless of the
weather.
The walk's purpose was to aid our
digestion.
The teacher walks/walked to
work.
The teacher has walked to class
today.
Peter Adams
On Jan 14, 2008, at 4:33 PM, Martha Kolln
wrote:
Linda & all,
The suffix -tion is an exceptionally good
clue that a word is a noun. Even Karl's list of -tion verbs can
be shown to be nouns as well by making them plural--with the possible
exception of apportion. But the list of -tion words
made from verbs is huge. In the discussion of noun derivational
suffixes in Understanding English Grammar, I
list the following from the first few pages of the
dictionary: abbreviation, abolition, abortion, abstraction,
accommodation, accumulation, accusation, acquisition, action.
Every page has them in abundance--verbs that can be turned into nouns
with the -ion (or -tion, -ation, etc.) added.
And -tion is only one of many such
derivational suffixes that identify a word as a noun: Another that was
mentioned was -ment. There's also -ance, -al, -ant, -age, -y,
-ure, and -er--and more. The concept of "noun" as one
of the form classes--along with verbs, adjectives, and adverbs--is an
important distinction between the Latin-based "eight parts of
speech" and the word classes based on English. All the form
classes have distinctive forms that students will come to recognize in
a conscious way--and they'll learn to appreciate their inner grammar
expertise.
And of course, nearly all nouns can
function as adjectives. It's important in discussing "parts
of speech" to recognize the distinction between form and
function. It presents a problem for test takers when they are
asked to identify the "part of speech." In a sentence with
"the telephone book," for example,
the underlined word is functioning as an adjective, but that doesn't
make it an adjective; it's still a noun in form.
Just some thoughts.
Martha
Here's a list (generated from an aspell
file) of all the reasonably
common verbs ending in -tion. All were ultimately derived from
nouns,although for some of them (e.g.,
apportion) the conversion took place
before the word was borrowed.
It's not a large list, but it does show that the -tion = N rule is too
tidy.
apportion
auction
audition
caption
caution
condition
function
malfunction
mention
motion
partition
petition
portion
position
precondition
proportion
proposition
question
ration
reapportion
recondition
reposition
requisition
sanction
section
station
vacation
rbetting wrote:
> Herb,
>
> Comments on noun functions. Does calling nouns used this way
adjective make
> sense to students? Our linguistic system likes to be able to
manipulate form
> words into other parts of speech, nouns to verbs and so on. One
choice that
> appears to be handy is our use of nouns as modifiers, as in
"the stocking
> committee planning chart" or "a fan belt compression
fitting design plan."
> So we might hear of a "site plan coordination effort
currently underway." I
> just read about the " 2007 Devils Lake operation summary
report document."
> How's this: "The linear realignment task force control
system planning
> session." That could apply to grammar study.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <hstahlkTo join or leave this LISTSERV
list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008
5:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
Instructional Services Supervisor
W220 N6151 Town Line Road
Sussex WI 53089-3999
Telephone: 262.246.1973 x1180
Facsimile: 262.246.6552
[log in to unmask]
>>> Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]> 1/14/2008 10:02 PM >>>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 5:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
Instructional Services Supervisor
W220 N6151 Town Line Road
Sussex WI 53089-3999
Telephone: 262.246.1973 x1180
Facsimile: 262.246.6552
[log in to unmask]
>>> Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]> 1/14/2008 10:02 PM >>>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 5:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 10:17 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: scope and sequence for grammar
Instructional Services Supervisor
W220 N6151 Town Line Road
Sussex WI 53089-3999
Telephone: 262.246.1973 x1180
Facsimile: 262.246.6552
[log in to unmask]
>>> Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]> 1/14/2008 10:02 PM >>>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 5:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
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Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 10:17 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: scope and sequence for grammar
Instructional Services Supervisor
W220 N6151 Town Line Road
Sussex WI 53089-3999
Telephone: 262.246.1973 x1180
Facsimile: 262.246.6552
[log in to unmask]
>>> Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]> 1/14/2008 10:02 PM >>>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 5:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
I think you should ask directly about the candidates's work and experience. I am sure you want someone who not only values grammar but also can teach it well?
How do you teach grammar as a part of composition?
Where and how do you address it?
What grammatical areas do you find students need help with most these days?
How much does grammar count when you grade compositions?
How do you assess grammatical understanding of your students?
How would you explain the use of commas in a series to a student?
What have you found works with students who seem to have difficulty understanding a grammatical concept?
How do you make grammar interesting as many students find it dull?
What do you think are the top 10 grammatical/mechanical topics students MUST master before they graduate?
Ask to look at some compositions the candidates have corrected. Ask to see samples of their own writing.
Etc.
Steve Cohen
The Allen-Stevenson School
**************
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
[log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 1:47 PM
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Interview
Questions?
I think you should ask directly about the
candidates's work and experience. I am sure you want someone who not only
values grammar but also can teach it well?
How do you teach grammar as a
part of composition?
Where and how do you address it?
What grammatical
areas do you find students need help with most these days?
How much does
grammar count when you grade compositions?
How do you assess grammatical
understanding of your students?
How would you explain the use of commas in a
series to a student?
What have you found works with students who seem to have
difficulty understanding a grammatical concept?
How do you make grammar
interesting as many students find it dull?
What do you think are the top 10
grammatical/mechanical topics students MUST master before they graduate?
Ask to look at some compositions the candidates have corrected. Ask to
see samples of their own writing.
Etc.
Steve Cohen
The
Allen-Stevenson School
**************
Start the year off
right. Easy ways to stay in
shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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Linda Comerford <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 1:47 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
I think you should ask directly about the candidates's work and experience. I am sure you want someone who not only values grammar but also can teach it well?
How do you teach grammar as a part of composition?
Where and how do you address it?
What grammatical areas do you find students need help with most these days?
How much does grammar count when you grade compositions?
How do you assess grammatical understanding of your
students?
How would you explain the use of commas in a series to a student?
What have you found works with students who seem to have difficulty understanding a grammatical concept?
How do you make grammar interesting as many students find it dull?
What do you think are the top 10 grammatical/mechanical topics students MUST master before they graduate?
Ask to look at some compositions the candidates have corrected. Ask to see samples of their own writing.
Etc.
Steve Cohen
The Allen-Stevenson School
**************
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
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From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol
Morrison
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 3:17 PM
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Interview Questions/#10-Top Ten
Grammatical/Mechanical Topics
Linda Comerford <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
[log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 1:47 PM
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Interview
Questions?
I think you should ask directly about the
candidates's work and experience. I am sure you want someone who not
only values grammar but also can teach it well?
How do you teach
grammar as a part of composition?
Where and how do you address it?
What
grammatical areas do you find students need help with most these days?
How
much does grammar count when you grade compositions?
How do you assess
grammatical understanding of your students?
How would you explain the use
of commas in a series to a student?
What have you found works with students
who seem to have difficulty understanding a grammatical concept?
How do you
make grammar interesting as many students find it dull?
What do you think
are the top 10 grammatical/mechanical topics students MUST master before they
graduate?
Ask to look at some compositions the candidates have
corrected. Ask to see samples of their own writing.
Etc.
Steve
Cohen
The Allen-Stevenson School
**************
Start
the year off right. Easy ways to stay in
shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 3:17 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Interview Questions/#10-Top Ten Grammatical/Mechanical
Topics
Linda Comerford <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 1:47 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
I think you should ask directly about the candidates's work and
experience. I am sure you want someone who not only values grammar but
also can teach it well?
How do you teach grammar as a part of composition?
Where and how do you address it?
What grammatical areas do you find students need help with most these days?
How much does grammar count when you grade compositions?
How do you assess grammatical understanding of your students?
How would you explain the use of commas in a series to a student?
What have you found works with students who seem to have difficulty
understanding a grammatical concept?
How do you make grammar interesting as many students find it dull?
What do you think are the top 10 grammatical/mechanical topics students MUST
master before they graduate?
Ask to look at some compositions the candidates have corrected. Ask to see
samples of their own writing.
Etc.
Steve Cohen
The Allen-Stevenson School
**************
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 To join
or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list"
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 1:47 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Interview Questions?
I think you should ask directly about the candidates's work and
experience. I am sure you want someone who not only values grammar but
also can teach it well?
How do you teach grammar as a part of composition?
Where and how do you address it?
What grammatical areas do you find students need help with most these days?
How much does grammar count when you grade compositions?
How do you assess grammatical understanding of your students?
How would you explain the use of commas in a series to a student?
What have you found works with students who seem to have difficulty
understanding a grammatical concept?
How do you make grammar interesting as many students find it dull?
What do you think are the top 10 grammatical/mechanical topics students MUST
master before they graduate?
Ask to look at some compositions the candidates have corrected. Ask to see
samples of their own writing.
Etc.
Steve Cohen
The Allen-Stevenson School
**************
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
www.booklocker.com/pdf/3213s.pdf
I hope you enjoy it.
--
Don Stewart
Write for College
______________________
Keeper of the memory and method
of Dr. Francis Christensen
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Department of English
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008
3:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Unresolved comparative
"so"
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:29 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
Department of English
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Unresolved comparative "so"
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:58:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:29 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Unresolved comparative "so"
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Department of English
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008
3:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Unresolved comparative
"so"
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:29 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
Department of English
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Unresolved comparative "so"
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:57 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:29 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Unresolved comparative "so"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:49:11 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:57 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:29 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Unresolved comparative "so"
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Unresolved comparative "so"
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Department of English
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008
1:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: genitive appositive
Although I use Joo's Five clocks quite literally, I do not speak to my
cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in the same idiolect
that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or in talking with
fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or in talking to colleagues
at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a lecture at such an
event.
It should be noted that Formal English is within the scope of most
non-English-speaking participants in international conferences; casual
English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or writing an article
for
highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the banner of pedantry.
My
formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than it would be for
speaking to a general audience--much as if I were speaking with friends
in general conversation--a good group makes you feel that way.
Scott Catledge
I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's trap of trying
to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>
>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>> Bill Spruiell
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Scott,
I'm sorry that I have already deleted the messages sent concerning the above
subject. I can still attempt a fuller explanation. The idea I had was as
follows.
The genitive in Latin is an inflection of nouns often used to represent the
idea of possession by the thing referred to by the noun that is inflected.
Of course, we don't "possess" friends, but this relation is also expressed
by the genitive. The possessive in English has traditionally be taken as an
inflection on the noun and parallel to the genitive in Latin. However, in
English we
have a paraphrastic expression using "of" to express the same
relationship. This complicates the translation of English into Latin and
vice versa, since sometimes the one, and sometimes the other expression
seems more appropriate.
1) my friend -- possessive pronoun -- amicus meus
2) the friend of mine -- paraphrastic possessive -- amicus meus
3) a friend of mine -- double possessive -- amicus meus / unus amici mei
Similarly, if the possessive is a noun, we have:
4) the doctor's friend -- possessive noun -- amicus doctoris / doctoris
amicus
5) the friend of the doctor -- paraphrastic possessive -- doctoris amicus /
amicus doctoris
6) a friend of the doctor's -- double possessive -- unus doctoris amici /
unus doctoris amicus
Traditionally the English is taken as defective when compared to the Latin,
since it cannot easily distinguish the meanings that Latin must.
I think the sentence in your original
question has a phrase something like
"the hall of his friend the doctor's." This is not a double possessive in
the above sense; the phrase "of his friend" is completed by the appositive
"the doctor's." The question revolved around the possessive of doctor being
in apposition to the paraphrastic possessive (genitive) "of his friend."
The assumption seemed to be that an equally felicitous expression would
comprise both nouns being complement to the preposition: "of his friend the
doctor." In Latin this would be "amici ejus doctoris" where the genitive
belongs to the whole phrase. Latinizing the English phrase would presumably
place the possessive ending on the nouns of the phrase, not just the word
"doctor."
There seem to be good reasons for putting the possessive ending on the
phrase based on the use of the possessive ending on certain other short
phrases. A particle that occurs as part of a word, but syntactically
belongs to the phrase is called an enclitic. Hence, in the phrase, "the
queen of England's crown" the possessive ending on "England" is an enclitic;
it logically makes the whole noun phrase of which it is a part possessive.
We occassionally find colloquial expressions, of which I cited a few like
"the store on the corner's front window was broken" that use this particular
enclitic. It appears that it will not attach to words that are not nouns.
The final suggestion was that this is the enclitic found on the phrase in
question. It has simply attached itself to the final noun of the noun
phrase, which in this case is in apposition to the other noun. (Whether the
noun is appositional "the doctor" or in a modifying prepositional phrase "of
England" it still stands in an adjectival relationship to the main noun.)
Latin places it in the same case as the noun modified, whereas English seems
to place the whole phrase in the
possessive. Even though the main noun is
follows "of" and is a paraphrastic possessive, the appositive that follows
also becomes possessive . This then would be attributing a sort-of double
possessive to the phrase "of his friend the doctor's."
Let me add a footnote. The use of the term "enclitic" for a possessive
might be misunderstood to be referring to the idea that "doctor's" comes
from "doctor his" when the accent is reduced. I do not believe that this
idea can be at all supported, though some older grammarians have expressed
it in print.
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 7:55 AM
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 24 Jan 2008 to 25 Jan 2008 (#2008-17)
> Bruce--
> Could you repeat your message and be a little clearer;{)>
> Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest
> system
> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 12:07 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: ATEG Digest - 24 Jan 2008 to 25 Jan 2008 (#2008-17)
>
> There are 2 messages totalling 227 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. genitive appositive
> 2. ATEG Digest - 23 Jan 2008 to 24 Jan 2008 (#2008-16)
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:27:10 -0700
> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: genitive
appositive
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:45:34 -0500
> From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 23 Jan 2008 to 24 Jan 2008 (#2008-16)
>
> Although I use Joo's Five clocks quite literally, I do not speak to my
> cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in the same idiolect
> that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or in talking with
> fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or
in talking to colleagues
> at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a lecture at such an
> event.
> It should be noted that Formal English is within the scope of most
> non-English-speaking participants in international conferences; casual
> English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or writing an
> article
> for
> highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the banner of pedantry. My
> formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
> In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than it would be for
> speaking to a general audience--much as if I were speaking with friends
> in general conversation--a good group makes you feel that way.
> Scott Catledge
>
> I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's trap of
> trying
> to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>>
>>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>>> Bill
Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of ATEG Digest - 24 Jan 2008 to 25 Jan 2008 (#2008-17)
=== message truncated ===
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Sent: 2008-01-26 09:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in the same idiolect
that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or in talking with
fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or in talking to colleagues
at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a lecture at such an
event.
It should be noted that Formal English is within the scope of most
non-English-speaking participants in international conferences; casual
English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or writing an article
for
highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the banner of pedantry. My
formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than it would be for
speaking to a general audience--much as if I were speaking with friends
in general conversation--a good group makes you feel that way.
Scott Catledge
I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's trap of trying
to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>
>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>> Bill Spruiell
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Carol,
I hope you succeed in finding a course
that treats grammar in ways that are relevant to the composition
classroom. You put your finger on one of the curricular gaps in
linguistics, English, and composition programs, the absence of just
such courses. I've taught both of the courses you mention WCU
is offering, and I'm not sure either is what you're looking for,
given the descriptions you provide. An Intro Linguistics course
will not address pedagogy, composition, or much of English grammar.
It has too many other topics it has to cover to prepare students for
more advanced courses in linguistics. A "Structure of Modern
English" course will present an anatomy of English syntactic
structures, possibly some material on English word formation, and
maybe even some English phonology, although that tends to be
neglected. It will likely be a very technical grammar course
drawing heavily on linguistic concepts. It will almost certainly
not deal with pedagogy or composition.
The sort of course you seek is one a
number of us have taught, and Martha Koln has written a superb text
for it, her Rhetorical Grammar, which a lot of us have studied
and have used as a text in our own classes. State College is a
bit of a commute from Philadelphia, but I wonder if Martha or one of
her colleagues will be offering such a course this
summer.
All the best!
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of
English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Carol Morrison
Sent: 2008-01-26 09:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
Dear Fellow ATEG Members,
I am interested in taking a course
in grammar at a local college or university this summer.
Does anyone happen to know of a college
or university in the Philadelphia area that might be offering a
grammar class or workshop for teachers? West Chester
University is offering Intro. to Linguistics: "basic
concepts of language description, classification, change,
reconstruction, dialectology, and sociolinguistics" and
Structure of Modern English: "a detailed analysis of the
modern descriptive approach to the study of English grammar and how it
compares with the traditional approach." Would anyone be
able to recommend either of those courses or something
else? I would like to increase my knowledge in the
type of grammar that could possibly be applied to the
composition classroom, a "writer's grammar." Maybe taking
both of the courses would be beneficial, though I'm not sure that I
have the time. Thank you for your time and possible
feedback.
Carol Morrison
Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Although I use Joo's Five clocks quite literally, I do not
speak to my
cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in the same
idiolect
that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or in talking
with
fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or in talking to
colleagues
at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a lecture at such
an
event.
It should be noted that Formal English is within the scope of most
non-English-speaking participants in international conferences;
casual
English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or writing an
article
for
highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the banner of pedantry.
My
formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than it would be
for
speaking to a general audience--much as if I were speaking with
friends
in general conversation--a good group makes you feel that way.
Scott Catledge
I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's trap of
trying
to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>
>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>> Bill Spruiell
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Never miss a thing. Make
Yahoo your homepage. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
visit the list's web interface at:
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leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list,
please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/
Carol,
I hope you succeed in finding a course
that treats grammar in ways that are relevant to the composition
classroom. You put your finger on one of the curricular gaps in
linguistics, English, and composition programs, the absence of just
such courses. I've taught both of the courses you mention WCU
is offering, and I'm not sure either is what you're looking for,
given the descriptions you provide. An Intro Linguistics course
will not address pedagogy, composition, or much of English grammar.
It has too many other topics it has to cover to prepare students for
more advanced courses in linguistics. A "Structure of Modern
English" course will present an anatomy of English syntactic
structures, possibly some material on English word formation, and
maybe even some English phonology, although that tends to be
neglected. It will likely be a very technical grammar course
drawing heavily on linguistic concepts. It will almost certainly
not deal with pedagogy or composition.
The sort of course you seek is one a
number of us have taught, and Martha Koln has written a superb text
for it, her Rhetorical Grammar, which a lot of us have studied
and have used as a text in our own classes. State College is a
bit of a commute from Philadelphia, but I wonder if Martha or one of
her colleagues will be offering such a course this
summer.
All the best!
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of
English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Carol Morrison
Sent: 2008-01-26 09:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
Dear Fellow ATEG Members,
I am interested in taking a course
in grammar at a local college or university this summer.
Does anyone happen to know of a college
or university in the Philadelphia area that might be offering a
grammar class or workshop for teachers? West Chester
University is offering Intro. to Linguistics: "basic
concepts of language description, classification, change,
reconstruction, dialectology, and sociolinguistics" and
Structure of Modern English: "a detailed analysis of the
modern descriptive approach to the study of English grammar and how it
compares with the traditional approach." Would anyone be
able to recommend either of those courses or something
else? I would like to increase my knowledge in the
type of grammar that could possibly be applied to the
composition classroom, a "writer's grammar." Maybe taking
both of the courses would be beneficial, though I'm not sure that I
have the time. Thank you for your time and possible
feedback.
Carol Morrison
Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Although I use Joo's Five clocks quite literally, I do not
speak to my
cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in the same
idiolect
that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or in talking
with
fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or in talking to
colleagues
at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a lecture at such
an
event.
It should be noted that Formal English is within the scope of most
non-English-speaking participants in international conferences;
casual
English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or writing an
article
for
highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the banner of pedantry.
My
formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than it would be
for
speaking to a general audience--much as if I were speaking with
friends
in general conversation--a good group makes you feel that way.
Scott Catledge
I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's trap of
trying
to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>
>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>> Bill Spruiell
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Never miss a thing. Make
Yahoo your homepage. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list,
please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/
Carol,
I hope you succeed in finding a course that treats grammar in ways that are relevant to the composition classroom. You put your finger on one of the curricular gaps in linguistics, English, and composition programs, the absence of just such courses. I've taught both of the courses you mention WCU is offering, and I'm not sure either is what you're looking for, given the descriptions you provide. An Intro Linguistics course will not address pedagogy, composition, or much of English grammar. It has too many other topics it has to cover to
prepare students for more advanced courses in linguistics. A "Structure of Modern English" course will present an anatomy of English syntactic structures, possibly some material on English word formation, and maybe even some English phonology, although that tends to be neglected. It will likely be a very technical grammar course drawing heavily on linguistic concepts. It will almost certainly not deal with pedagogy or composition.
The sort of course you seek is one a number of us have taught, and Martha Koln has written a superb text for it, her Rhetorical Grammar, which a lot of us have studied and have used as a text in our own classes. State College is a bit of a commute from Philadelphia, but I wonder if Martha or one of her colleagues will be offering such a course this summer.
All the best!
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: 2008-01-26 09:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
Dear Fellow ATEG Members,
I am interested in taking a course in grammar at a local college or university this summer.
Does anyone happen to know of a college or university in the Philadelphia area that might be offering a grammar class
or workshop for teachers? West Chester University is offering Intro. to Linguistics: "basic concepts of language description, classification, change, reconstruction, dialectology, and sociolinguistics" and Structure of Modern English: "a detailed analysis of the modern descriptive approach to the study of English grammar and how it compares with the traditional approach." Would anyone be able to recommend either of those courses or something else? I would like to increase my knowledge in the type of grammar that could possibly be applied to the composition classroom, a "writer's grammar." Maybe taking both of the courses would be beneficial, though I'm not sure that I have the time. Thank you for your time and possible feedback.
Carol Morrison
Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Although I use Joo's Five clocks quite
literally, I do not speak to my
cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in the same idiolect
that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or in talking with
fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or in talking to colleagues
at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a lecture at such an
event.
It should be noted that Formal English is within the scope of most
non-English-speaking participants in international conferences; casual
English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or writing an article
for
highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the banner of pedantry. My
formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than it would be for
speaking to a general audience--much as if I were speaking with friends
in general conversation--a good group makes you feel that way.
Scott Catledge
I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old
grammar pedant's trap of trying
to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>
>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>> Bill Spruiell
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Sent: 2008-01-26 09:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in the same idiolect
that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or in talking with
fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or in talking to colleagues
at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a lecture at such an
event.
It should be noted that Formal English is within the scope of most
non-English-speaking participants in international conferences; casual
English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or writing an article
for
highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the
banner of pedantry. My
formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than it would be for
speaking to a general audience--much as if I were speaking with friends
in general conversation--a good group makes you feel that way.
Scott Catledge
I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's trap of trying
to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>
>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>> Bill Spruiell
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Sent: 2008-01-27 11:45
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
"STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Sent: 2008-01-26 09:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in the same idiolect
that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or in talking with
fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or in talking to colleagues
at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a lecture at such an
event.
It should be noted that Formal English is within the scope of most
non-English-speaking participants in international conferences; casual
English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or writing an article
for
highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the banner of pedantry. My
formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than it would be for
speaking to a general audience--much as if I were speaking with friends
in general conversation--a good group makes you feel that way.
Scott Catledge
I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's trap of trying
to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>
>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>> Bill Spruiell
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Sent: 2008-01-27 07:41
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
Sent: 2008-01-26 09:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Summer Courses/Programs in Grammar
Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
cousins (also farm born but who stayed on the farm) in the same idiolect
that I would use in a speech to a general audience, or in talking with
fellow teachers at a teacher's conference, or in talking to colleagues
at a professional congress/conference, or in giving a lecture at such an
event.
It should be noted that Formal English is within the scope of most
non-English-speaking participants in international conferences; casual
English is not. When--and only when--I am speaking to or writing an article
for
highly literate colleagues do I proudly bear the banner of pedantry. My
formal idiolect in such cases is quite strict.
In case you wonder, my email to ATEG is more casual than it would be for
speaking to a general audience--much as if I were speaking with friends
in general conversation--a good group makes you feel that way.
Scott Catledge
I wonder whether...I've fallen into the old grammar pedant's trap of trying
to foist my idiolect on the universe.
>
>> Thanks, er, muchly,
>> Bill Spruiell
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
From: Nancy Tuten <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:44:00 PM
Subject: Re: Tasmanian Devils
I often tell my students about the family who used to live across the street
from us (I really couldn't avoid them) and had "The Barnes" painted on their
mailbox. I tell the students that it would be no different than my having
"The Tuten" on my mailbox. I had to fight the urge to go over there under
cover of darkness and use a fat Sharpie to add the "es"--or at least to add
the word "Family" behind the name. Thank goodness they moved.
How about the lanes in grocery stores for patrons purchasing "Ten items or
less"? I tell my students (and it's not true, but they get a kick out of
it) that I will shop only at Publix grocery stores because the signs
in
those stores say "Ten items or fewer."
And then there are the signs across roads announcing "Prepare to stop when
flashing." (But officer, I wasn't flashing!)
I guess I am, after all, a recovering prescriptivist . . .
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
[log in to unmask]
803-786-3706
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Kathleen M. Ward
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:33 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Tasmanian
Devils
Apostrophe's. On plural's. Make me crazy.
I had to change my dog walking route because the better route took me
past a house labeled "The Bridewell's." I knew that if I kept
walking by that house, sooner or later I would be tempted to
vandalism, and I don't fancy working out the end of my career in the
pokey.
Kathleen Ward
UC Davis
On Jan 30, 2008, at 4:37 PM, Beth Young wrote:
>>>> "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> 1/30/2008 5:07 PM >>>
> Even descriptive linguists have a
> prescriptivist streak -- we just feel more conflicted about it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Now there's an entertaining topic . . . what prescriptivist
>
tendencies will others of you admit to? I confess to being
> irritated by "ice tea"--it's tea with ice in it, not tea made of
> ice--despite the fact that I have no problem with "ice cream" or
> "ice water." (Though I guess "ice water" would be a closer call in
> any event, since ice & water are both h20.)
>
> Beth (who should be grading papers)
> (and who also feels conflicted about her pet peeves)
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
I know I have told this story to some on this list, so forgive me if I repeat myself. As a young college freshman (1963), I had to read R. R. Palmer's history tome, and one of his sentences included a modification of "unique." In his estimation, something was more or less unique than something else. Now you need to be aware of my upbringing - some children are taught to look both ways before they cross the street, others to always be polite to adults. I was taught never to modify the word "unique." Mr. Palmer was in obvious need of my instruction, and I upbraided him in a letter in which great umbrage was taken. Some weeks later, I received a reply from R. R. himself, which read as follows: "Dear Mr. Layton: You are quite right although unduly concerned."
Geoff Layton
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:11:55 -0800
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Tasmanian Devils
To: [log in to unmask]
From: Nancy Tuten <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:44:00 PM
Subject: Re: Tasmanian Devils
I often tell my students about the family who used to live across the street
from us (I really couldn't avoid them) and had "The Barnes" painted on their
mailbox. I tell the students that it would be no different than my having
"The Tuten" on my mailbox. I had to fight the urge to go over there under
cover of darkness and use a fat Sharpie to add the "es"--or at least to add
the word "Family" behind the name. Thank goodness they moved.
How about the lanes in grocery stores for patrons purchasing "Ten items or
less"? I tell my students (and it's not true, but they get a kick out of
it) that I will shop only at Publix grocery stores because the signs in
those stores say "Ten items or fewer."
And then there are the signs across roads announcing "Prepare to stop when
flashing." (But officer, I wasn't flashing!)
I guess I am, after all, a recovering prescriptivist . . .
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
[log in to unmask]
803-786-3706
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Kathleen M. Ward
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:33 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Tasmanian Devils
Apostrophe's. On plural's. Make me crazy.
I had to change my dog walking route because the better route took me
past a house labeled "The Bridewell's." I knew that if I kept
walking by that house, sooner or later I would be tempted to
vandalism, and I don't fancy working out the end of my career in the
pokey.
Kathleen Ward
UC Davis
On Jan 30, 2008, at 4:37 PM, Beth Young wrote:
>>>> "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> 1/30/2008 5:07 PM >>>
> Even descriptive linguists have a
> prescriptivist streak -- we just feel more conflicted about it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Now there's an entertaining topic . . . what prescriptivist
> tendencies will others of you admit to? I confess to being
> irritated by "ice tea"--it's tea with ice in it, not tea made of
> ice--despite the fact that I have no problem with "ice cream" or
> "ice water." (Though I guess "ice water" would be a closer call in
> any event, since ice & water are both h20.)
>
> Beth (who should be grading papers)
> (and who also feels conflicted about her pet peeves)
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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