Herb, I'm not sure I see how those two sentences can be compared. The sentence "That's the man met me at the airport" contains a relative clause with a missing "who." In the sentence "I hate Fred isn't coming to the party," we have a noun/nominal clause with a missing "that." The relative clause in your airport sentence is ungrammatical without the relative pronoun because that pronoun functions as the subject of the relative clause. But "that" merely launches a noun clause in the "hate Fred" sentence. Since the word "that" doesn't function in a key slot in the noun clause, it seems that these are quite different kinds of sentences with different functions of "that." In other words, aren't we mixing apples and oranges? When you say "Your first example is bad," do you mean that I have chosen an example that doesn't fit the discussion or that the sentence is badly constructed? I agree with the latter meaning; the sentence is badly constructed without the word "that" because it invites a misreading. I also agree that a different verb--such as "know" or "remember"--would be less likely to invite a misreading, but the possibility for a misreading is still there. In sentences with relative clauses launched by the pronoun "that" or "who," the pronoun can probably be omitted as long as it is in the object slot and not the subject slot of its own clause: She lost the ring [that] I bought last week. ["That" is not necessary] She lost the ring that belonged to my mother. ["That" is necessary] I think I would give this advice to student writers: In some situations, "that" is essential, in some cases it aids in the reading but might be considered optional by some readers, and in some cases it is not necessary and even makes the sentence wordy (as in the first example above this paragraph). Do you agree? Nancy Nancy L. Tuten, PhD Professor of English Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program Columbia College Columbia, South Carolina [log in to unmask] 803-786-3706 -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 8:52 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The use of "that" Nancy, You're first example is bad for the same reason that That's the man met me at the airport. is wrong. There is a position that Fred fills that's required by "hate," and so when you get to isn't you run into a parsing problem. A verb like "know" more readily anticipates a clause, so Mary knows Fred isn't coming to the party. doesn't have the same problem, even though you can say "Mary knows Fred." Herb -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Nancy Tuten Sent: Sat 2/16/2008 10:39 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The use of "that" How about in these examples? Molly hates Fred isn't coming to the party. Molly hates that Fred isn't coming to the party. I would argue that the reader gets to the word "isn't" and realizes that perhaps the thought that "Molly hates Fred" isn't what the writer intended. The reader then has to start over and rethink the sentence. It seems to me that it is the writer's job to keep the reader from doing that extra work. There is no doubt that the word "that" is unnecessary in many cases. However, when I train in the business world and when I teach in the college classroom, I run into a lot of people who have been told to remove all their "thats." I argue that they should decide on a case-by-case basis. Nancy Nancy L. Tuten, PhD Professor of English Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program Columbia College Columbia, South Carolina <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask] 803-786-3706 _____ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:39 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: The use of "that" As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of "that," which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain circumstances and what function it serves. For instance: 1) I think that we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday. vs. 2) I think we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday. or, a 3rd person example, since the above are more representative of speech than writing: 3) Jean thinks that Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant. vs. 4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant. My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it function as a complementizer in the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with "that" clauses). Thank you! Carol Morrison _____ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs> your homepage. 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