Nancy, The comment about hiring decisions and semicolons came from me, and I've heard it from more than one person. Your new project sounds fascinating! I am already looking forward to purchasing the new edition of your book. Good luck with it. If my 20+ years of training in the business world can help you in any way, please let me know. Linda Linda Comerford 317.786.6404 [log in to unmask] www.comerfordconsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nancy Tuten Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:12 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Categories for rules (was Nancy's rules; "But" as a preposition) Hi, Linda. I agree completely that some of the rules that are important in the professional world are important for good reasons; that is, they are not simply arbitrary matters of preference but actually improve writing. Those would go in the second category. But there are many "rules" that are important *only* because people perceive them to be so--such as the distinction between "assure" and "ensure." It drives me crazy when people use the first when the second would be a better choice, but I recognize that the distinction is not really critical to the conveyance of meaning. That one would go in the first category. It's not that I would tell people to stop making that distinction but rather I would invite them to recognize the difference between a substantive choice and one that is not. Please don't think that I'm dismissing the so-called "arbitrary" rules as unimportant. They are, in fact, very important in the professional world. Was it on this list or in a recent NYT article that I read about an employer who will hire the person who uses the semicolon correctly over an equally qualified person who does not? They matter in the same way that following certain prescribed formulas for business letters matters or knowing how to dress appropriately in certain business environments matters. So I guess the bottom line is that if a rule seems to have any substantive effect on writing--if it aids with clarity, readability, etc.--then it would go in the second category even though those rules may also be valued in the professional world (and we would hope so!). To some extent, my cowriter and I will be making those judgments. For example, we think the distinction between "which" and "that" is helpful in distinguishing between nonrestrictive and restrictive information. Others (as we have seen in earlier discussions) may think the difference is arbitrary. We hope that the book will raise these very issues for laypeople (non-ATEGers) and help them make informed decisions. And now that I think about it, I probably need a third category for what Ed calls the myth rules. Just yesterday a woman wrote to me to ask if she was right when she told someone to use "lay" for inanimate objects and "lie" for humans and animals. Great question, Linda! I'm on sabbatical next fall to finish this project, so I have been thinking a lot about how best to revise. Thanks for encouraging me to start fine-tuning my thinking! Nancy Nancy L. Tuten, PhD Professor of English Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program Columbia College Columbia, South Carolina [log in to unmask] 803-786-3706 -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda Di Desidero Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 9:42 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Nancy's rules ? But as a preposition? Hi, Nancy. I like the rule dichotomy that you are developing for your publication, but I wonder if you don't see some overlap in these rules. I mean, aren't there rules that workplace people think are important that are also related to meaning? I guess I am asking: Do you see the two categories as mutually exclusive? And when you find a rule that would fit in both categories, what will you do? Just curious-- Linda Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D. Associate Professor Assistant Academic Director of Writing University of Maryland University College 3501 University Boulevard, East Adelphi, MD 20783 ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Nancy Tuten Sent: Fri 2/29/2008 8:19 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: But as a preposition? The word "but" can fill all three slots, of course, but in answer to Peter's question, I would point out that the meaning remains fairly consistent even when the word is used in different roles. Just as "but" can be a preposition replacing "except," some writers/speakers use "except" as a coordinating conjunction: I thought about going to the store, except I didn't have any money. I would caution writers against such a construction, just as I would caution them not to use "like" as a subordinating conjunction. But it is easy to see why they would be tempted to replace "but" with "except" in a sentence such as this one if they hadn't memorized the list of seven words widely accepted as coordinating conjunctions. Aren't we back to the notion of style--what I think of as linguistic etiquette? Using "but" as a preposition works *and* it has long been accepted as a legitimate preposition. On the other hand, even though "except" works just fine as a coordinating conjunction (that is, the meaning isn't lost), many people consider it "wrong." A similar example would be confusion over the usage of "like" and "as": "like" functions just fine as a subordinating conjunction (that is, the intended meaning isn't lost when it is substituted for "as"), but stylistically many people still consider it "wrong." I'm about to start the revision process for a second edition of a book of writing "tips" a colleague and I published about seven years ago, and I'm almost to the point that I want to divide the entire book up into two major sections: (1) those "rules" that are important to know because the professional world thinks they are and educated people are supposed to know them (linguistic etiquette, matters of style and usage) and (2) those issues/rules that are important to know because they significantly affect clarity of meaning or precision of expression (modification issues, agreement issues, parallel structure, etc). I am certain that I am going to start making that distinction in the one and only grammar course that our English majors are required to take. I have been doing so to some extent for years, actually, but not as intentionally as I intend to do so now. The course (using Martha Kolln's text _Understanding English Grammar_) focuses almost exclusively on the latter issues anyway--syntax, mainly (and, yes, we diagram sentences and my students consistently say that they are better writers for having done so)--but students are still lumping that kind of understanding with a knowledge of "rules" and calling *all* of it "grammar." Nancy (who obviously had too much coffee for breakfast, Herb!) Nancy L. Tuten, PhD Professor of English Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program Columbia College Columbia, South Carolina [log in to unmask] 803-786-3706 -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:14 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: But as a preposition? Interestingly, the OED gives the part of speech of "but" as "prep., adv., conj." These distinct usages go back at least to the 9th c. As to whether it's one word, or two, or three, I fear that depends on your theory of the lexicon and what you had for breakfast. Herb -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams Sent: 2008-02-28 22:50 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: But as a preposition? Well, then, we (Herb, Nancy, and I, agree. But then I'm wondering (and this harks back to my question of a week ago about "red" and "snow") is this "but" a different word from the coordinating conjunction "but," that just happens to be spelled and pronounced the same way, or is this the same word which can be in either of two lexical classes depending on context, or is this "but" the coordinating conjunction (form) being used as a preposition (function)? Peter, who admits he's becoming a little obsessed with this question . . . Peter Adams On Feb 28, 2008, at 9:13 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote: > Yes, it can. In the example you give, one could substitute a > undisputed preposition like "except" and get the same meaning. With > different meanings we can substitute other prepositions and the > structure remains the same: behind, with, ahead of, after, near, > under, above, etc. So it fills a slot that is a prepositional slot. > It's semantic connection to the coordinating conjunction "but" is > remote. > > Herb > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams > Sent: 2008-02-28 20:34 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: But as a preposition? > > In a sentence like this > > Everyone but Craig is going to the movies. > > what lexical class is "but"? Can it be a preposition? > > Peter Adams > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/