I have found the "who/that/which" discussion to be quite interesting because it relates directly to what most of us are doing in the teaching of writing. I was especially fascinated by Herb's comment about the hypercorrection of "which," which I have always wondered about.  One other interesting characteristic of student (high school) writers I have noticed over the years is that I frequently see clause fragments beginning with "which" but less frequently see clause fragments beginning with "that."  Any explanations anyone, or has anyone else noticed this?
 
I also like "the Tuten's" advice that the commas are more important than the word, and to communicate this to students we will often play with sentences, creating both essential and non-essential elements (particularly clauses) and discuss what changes in meaning for the reader occur.  I find this type of work helpful when showing students that what they place in an adjective clause, especially, changes what the writer is emphasizing for the reader.
 
One other bit of advice I offer my students when we get into these types of debates is how the word choice affects the flow and cadence of their sentences.  I show them that writers consciously and unconsciously choose words that help for a blending of sound and smooth reading, especially when read out loud (and writers sometimes do just the opposite).  Sometimes "which" just doesn't flow well.  Therefore, if, like the Thoreau example, one word fits better than another then go for it, and break the "rule" once in a while!

Linda Di Desidero <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
My understanding is that there are TWO "that/which" rules:

1. Narrow rule: Use 'that' for restrictive clauses and use "which" for
non-restrictive clauses.

2. Broad rule: The usage of 'that' and 'which' in relative clauses is
the same. Speakers may use either one.

Certain speakers, stylesheets, and Microsoft WORD follow the narrow
rule, while other speakers and stylesheets follow the broad rule.

Linda


-----------------------------------------------------

Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D.

Associate Professor

Assistant Academic Director of Writing

Communication, Arts, and Humanities

University of Maryland University College

3501 University Boulevard East

Adelphi, MD 20783-8083



(240) 582-2830

(240) 582-2993 (fax)


-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Beth Young
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 8:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The use of "that" ; long rant

Hi Nancy,

I agree with you about the commas! Plus, these commas nicely parallel
the commas that we put around some adverbials (e.g., paired commas
around adverbials moved to the middle of the sentence) so they are good
to talk about for reasons of underlying comma logic, too.

re: grammar checkers--I suspect them of raising the profile of the
that/which error, not of creating it.

Beth


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hi, Beth.

Thanks for sharing that information--very interesting! I do think this
distinction goes back further than grammar checkers, though. I remember
using it long before I had ever even seen a word processor.

I'm curious, though: even if we don't use "that" and "which" to
distinguish between essential and nonessential
(restrictive-nonrestrictive) clauses, will we assume that the only way
to tell one from the other is with a pair of commas (or a single comma
if the nonrestrictive clause ends the sentence)? I'm thinking about a
pair of sentences such as these:

The classrooms that were painted during the summer break are bright and
clean. [Only some of the classrooms were painted, not all of them, and
those that were painted are bright and clean.]

vs.

The classrooms, which were painted during the summer break, are bright
and clean. [All of the classrooms are bright and clean--and, oh, by the
way, they were all painted over the summer.]

I have always found the "which/that" distinction helpful, but I
certainly do not see most writers making that distinction any longer.
Most use "which"
regardless of the nature of the relative clause. Thus, the commas seem
all the more important to me in preventing a misreading. I have been
telling students (and adults in seminars, who are particularly obsessed
with making this distinction, although they can never quite remember
which word performs which function) that the commas are more important
than ever if fewer and fewer people are using "which" and "that" to
clarify their meaning.

Sheepishly,

Nancy

Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina [log in to unmask]
803-786-3706

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