My understanding is that there are TWO "that/which" rules: 1. Narrow rule: Use 'that' for restrictive clauses and use "which" for non-restrictive clauses. 2. Broad rule: The usage of 'that' and 'which' in relative clauses is the same. Speakers may use either one. Certain speakers, stylesheets, and Microsoft WORD follow the narrow rule, while other speakers and stylesheets follow the broad rule. Linda ----------------------------------------------------- Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D. Associate Professor Assistant Academic Director of Writing Communication, Arts, and Humanities University of Maryland University College 3501 University Boulevard East Adelphi, MD 20783-8083 (240) 582-2830 (240) 582-2993 (fax) -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Beth Young Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 8:36 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The use of "that" ; long rant Hi Nancy, I agree with you about the commas! Plus, these commas nicely parallel the commas that we put around some adverbials (e.g., paired commas around adverbials moved to the middle of the sentence) so they are good to talk about for reasons of underlying comma logic, too. re: grammar checkers--I suspect them of raising the profile of the that/which error, not of creating it. Beth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, Beth. Thanks for sharing that information--very interesting! I do think this distinction goes back further than grammar checkers, though. I remember using it long before I had ever even seen a word processor. I'm curious, though: even if we don't use "that" and "which" to distinguish between essential and nonessential (restrictive-nonrestrictive) clauses, will we assume that the only way to tell one from the other is with a pair of commas (or a single comma if the nonrestrictive clause ends the sentence)? I'm thinking about a pair of sentences such as these: The classrooms that were painted during the summer break are bright and clean. [Only some of the classrooms were painted, not all of them, and those that were painted are bright and clean.] vs. The classrooms, which were painted during the summer break, are bright and clean. [All of the classrooms are bright and clean--and, oh, by the way, they were all painted over the summer.] I have always found the "which/that" distinction helpful, but I certainly do not see most writers making that distinction any longer. Most use "which" regardless of the nature of the relative clause. Thus, the commas seem all the more important to me in preventing a misreading. I have been telling students (and adults in seminars, who are particularly obsessed with making this distinction, although they can never quite remember which word performs which function) that the commas are more important than ever if fewer and fewer people are using "which" and "that" to clarify their meaning. Sheepishly, Nancy Nancy L. Tuten, PhD Professor of English Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program Columbia College Columbia, South Carolina [log in to unmask] 803-786-3706 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/